Basic Piping and Storage Design...Planning Phase please help!

JJSHELLEY

Member
Jan 18, 2018
5
Ny
Basics:
Wood boiler in attached garage
Storage tanks in walk-out basement 10 feet away but 8 feet below garage floor
2 500 gallon LP storage tanks, horizontal, side by side piped parallel
Low temp in floor heat 120F supply and 100F return
4 zone pumps with LP back up (over sized headers)

Looking for input on pipping and design. Any feedback is appreciated!
Also really considering variable speed circulators with temperature control for mixing water for boiler and low temp in floor heat vs the 3 way mixing valves?


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HardDrinkin'Lincoln

New Member
Nov 2, 2019
9
WA

JJSHELLEY

Member
Jan 18, 2018
5
Ny
Two great resources. Thank you for sharing!
At what temperature are you running through your house?
Are you happy with the 500 gallon or would you have gone additional storage?

I have 2000 sqft walkout basement with tubing in the floor, 12 foot on center
And 2000 sqft of aluminum heat transfer plates under 1st floor. So heating 4000sqft, House is 4 years old and insulation is good.

Should I go with 500 gallon or 1000 gallon storage?

Thanks,
Jason
 

HardDrinkin'Lincoln

New Member
Nov 2, 2019
9
WA
Two great resources. Thank you for sharing!
At what temperature are you running through your house?
Are you happy with the 500 gallon or would you have gone additional storage?

I have 2000 sqft walkout basement with tubing in the floor, 12 foot on center
And 2000 sqft of aluminum heat transfer plates under 1st floor. So heating 4000sqft, House is 4 years old and insulation is good.

Should I go with 500 gallon or 1000 gallon storage?

Thanks,
Jason
I have a Triangle Tube propane boiler that uses outdoor reset to determine the radiant water temperature. Water temp is 80° when outside temp is 55° and increases as the outside temp drops, to 115° at 0°.

The Vedolux 350 and 500 gal. tank is a good match for my house built in 2013, 1,875 sq. ft. single story with insulated concrete slab and 1/2" PEX in 3 zones. I sized them based on the actual heat loss calculation for the house. What is the total BTUs lost by the house over a 24 hour period on the coldest design day? Then given BTU generating capacity of the boiler you can figure out how many times per day you would have to burn a load of wood. This is really the first step in determining the size of the boiler. Once the boiler size is known then most boiler manufacturers will recommend a minimum storage tank volume. A larger tank can always be used to store more hot water and then release the energy over a longer period of time before having to relight the boiler.

In my case there was no room, in the garage or my budget, for any tank larger than 500 gallons.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
3,909
Downeast Maine
Could you put the boiler in the basement and storage in the garage? This would allow for natural thermosiphon action in the event of a power outage.
 

JJSHELLEY

Member
Jan 18, 2018
5
Ny
Could you put the boiler in the basement and storage in the garage? This would allow for natural thermosiphon action in the event of a power outage.
Possible, but I like the idea of keeping the firewood mess in my garage vs bringing it in my finished off basement. I'm thinking of a back up circulator on a battery if I move forward with original plan...Im looking at the Attack boiler and they also have a water hook up if power fails..
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
3,909
Downeast Maine
Possible, but I like the idea of keeping the firewood mess in my garage vs bringing it in my finished off basement. I'm thinking of a back up circulator on a battery if I move forward with original plan...Im looking at the Attack boiler and they also have a water hook up if power fails..
If I were putting a boiler in a garage the unit would be walled in to call it a boiler room so my insurance wouldn't throw a fit over breaking solid fueled appliances code.
 

salecker

Minister of Fire
Aug 22, 2010
1,009
Northern Canada
Up here in the north you can have a solid fueled apliance in your garage,but the unit has to be around 18" off the floor so fumes don't effect the fire.
 

HardDrinkin'Lincoln

New Member
Nov 2, 2019
9
WA
Up here in the north you can have a solid fueled apliance in your garage,but the unit has to be around 18" off the floor so fumes don't effect the fire.
A different consideration is at work in the states. The door of a wood burning appliance, when opened, may drop burning embers onto the floor, where gasoline vapors, which tend to be heavier than air, may ignite.
 
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JJSHELLEY

Member
Jan 18, 2018
5
Ny
Up here in the north you can have a solid fueled apliance in your garage,but the unit has to be around 18" off the floor so fumes don't effect the fire.
Basics:
Wood boiler in attached garage
Storage tanks in walk-out basement 10 feet away but 8 feet below garage floor
2 500 gallon LP storage tanks, horizontal, side by side piped parallel
Low temp in floor heat 120F supply and 100F return
4 zone pumps with LP back up (over sized headers)

Looking for input on pipping and design. Any feedback is appreciated!
Also really considering variable speed circulators with temperature control for mixing water for boiler and low temp in floor heat vs the 3 way mixing valves?


View attachment 257935
I have a Triangle Tube propane boiler that uses outdoor reset to determine the radiant water temperature. Water temp is 80° when outside temp is 55° and increases as the outside temp drops, to 115° at 0°.

The Vedolux 350 and 500 gal. tank is a good match for my house built in 2013, 1,875 sq. ft. single story with insulated concrete slab and 1/2" PEX in 3 zones. I sized them based on the actual heat loss calculation for the house. What is the total BTUs lost by the house over a 24 hour period on the coldest design day? Then given BTU generating capacity of the boiler you can figure out how many times per day you would have to burn a load of wood. This is really the first step in determining the size of the boiler. Once the boiler size is known then most boiler manufacturers will recommend a minimum storage tank volume. A larger tank can always be used to store more hot water and then release the energy over a longer period of time before having to relight the boiler.

In my case there was no room, in the garage or my budget, for any tank larger than 500 gallons.
From your storage tank you have a variable speed circulator connected to 3 zones.

Do you also have circulators at the beginning of each zone or a valve?

The reason I ask is because I currently have 4 zone circulators that I am connecting into from storage. Can I run a variable speed circulator to adjust water temp and feed the zone circulators. I'm just wondering about different flow rates between the 2? Basically I would be taking 190 -120 degree water and trying to get it down to 120 for my zones. The other option is a mixing valve, but if the variable circulator works it would save on pumping cost$
 

HardDrinkin'Lincoln

New Member
Nov 2, 2019
9
WA
From your storage tank you have a variable speed circulator connected to 3 zones.

Do you also have circulators at the beginning of each zone or a valve?

The reason I ask is because I currently have 4 zone circulators that I am connecting into from storage. Can I run a variable speed circulator to adjust water temp and feed the zone circulators. I'm just wondering about different flow rates between the 2? Basically I would be taking 190 -120 degree water and trying to get it down to 120 for my zones. The other option is a mixing valve, but if the variable circulator works it would save on pumping cost$
I have zone circulators. I also have a 30 gallon buffer tank between the circulators and the propane boiler to provide hydraulic separation (different flow rates) and prevent boiler short cycling. In your case a pair of closely spaced tees will provide the hydraulic separation, like was done with the Navien connection to the zone loop. Then you can use something like a Taco 00-VS pump. It comes with a temperature sensor which you mount to the copper pipe down stream from the tees. The pump will use the temperature at this point to vary it's speed to maintain the desired target temperature.

Here's my heating system.
IMG_1775.JPG