Beware long post..... Stonewalled on Wood heat

[lowroadacres]

Thank-you for the rapid feedback.

We are considering changing insurance carriers. The thing I should have mentioned is that there was a claim in our area in a very similar style of log house, but 4 times the size, in which the dollar value approached a million dollars. And yes, there was some form of malfunction connected to the wood heat equipment. As a result now there are only two carriers in our region who will even look at log houses. Both are surcharging at around 40 percent.

If I did not have a mortgage I seriously think I would consider contents only insurance and would sign a waiver of responsibility on the wood heat. I would then be even more hyper vigilant in the area of keeping a chimney clean and keeping the wet wood out of the house!

Yes, I did speak with a human being who had been very accomodating in our previous home with the less than ideal installation of an Olsen Wood electric furnace. By less than ideal we had to do some creative shielding to make clearances but they were more than adequate for the fellow we deal with at the insurance company.

The road block has been one of his supervisors. This time around I am not taking an email refusal from the higher up. I am pushing to get that individual out to our home and I will have my WETT installer available to refute his "thoughts and feelings" on the clearance issues. The most frustrating part of this whole process is that the insurance company doesn't blink at our main floor fireplace. They do not even add a wood heat surcharge for our fireplace. It is 28 years old!

Every person I know who has solid experience in the Wood heat industry shakes their head at the hoops they make us jump through. I truly believe that the issue in most cases of fire damage to property has very little to do with the equipment but mostly it has to do with the human error while installing and most importantly maintaining their heating equipment. While I have not witnessed many homes that have been burnt due to wood heat problems I have seen 4 fires in my lifetime in homes heated with wood. In all four cases the issue was chimney fire due to creosote buildup due to a combination of improperly seasoned wood and a neglect of chimney cleaning.

Insurance companies could save themselves and their customers a lot of grief if there was a way to prove proficiency as a part of being insured as opposed to blanket refusals.

Concerning the installation location we realize that in some ways a main level install has advantages over a basement install but we designed the basement for max airflow including the stairwell placement which is a wide open area to allow heat to rise. As well, I think I wrote that we designed our basement cold air return in such a way as to draw the maximum air from the very large room in which the stove is to be installed.

We looked closely, until a few days ago, at the installation of an insert in the fireplace but due to cash flow it is a no go.

As we enter heating season I have done the math and with the install we want to do we will pay for it in less than two winters..... That is including the wood heat surcharge we will have to pay on our insurance if we can successfully navigate past the roadblocks.

 

[lowroadacres]

As someone who has had wood heat in the home almost continually since I was 6 years old (on the south side of 40 now) it has been a frustrating couple of years.

In the fall of 2006 we replaced our beyond restoration farmhouse (foundation crumbling, rotting walls, etc) with a cedar log home. The one thing we miss was the fact that our old home, while in an of itself terrible from an energy efficiency perspective, it was heated with a wood electric furnace.

The cedar log home had been built in 1981 and we purchased it from a farmer who for a number of reasons was done with it on his yard. It is 1400 square feet of beauty and one of the most beautiful features is a very well built masonry chimney and fireplace. We chose a mover who was willing to move the whole house as one unit, including the chimney, which he and his crew did successfully.

The chimney and fireplace survived the move completely intact and once we moved in late December 2006 we began to use the fireplace as a room warmer but we knew full well that it was beautiful but inefficient. It does create a wonderful view and if we were in an absolute ice storm or blizzard crisis we wouldn't freeze to death but it will not heat a house.

At the same time the prior owners of the house had the foresight to make certain that their mason built a second flue that ran through to the basement in the event that they might someday have the desire for a basement woodstove or fireplace installation. They never did and as a result the second flue has never seen a single puff of smoke.

This is where my frustration begins. In the spirit of honesty and going completely front door with my insurance agents I was open with them from day one that I wanted to utilize the second flue and install an approved wood heat appliance to provide some of the heat to our home. Our plans were, in simple terms, to properly line the flue with a six inch insulated liner to create a proper draft both for size and due to the fact that the chimney is on the outside of the house.

We researched, and measured and planned and at every turn we have been stymied by the higher ups with the insurance company. We are working with a WETT certified installer and from his perspective everything was a go. He was as surprised as we were that the insurance company said no.

Ironically the wording of the refusal included the phrase "We feel that there will not be sufficient clearances." Last time I checked, a tape measure does not have feelings.

Until a week ago I had given up and was seriously considering an insert in the main floor fireplace. Now that I am looking at the costs of inserts I am back to square one as we already own the CSA approved woodstove and we actually designed the basement interior and the basement exterior wall for this installation. We even worked with our plumbing and heating specialist to set up the cold air returns to work for moving air through the entire house.

As well, to avoid losing the esthetic upstairs in our home we are not willing to compromise and go with an insert with a small viewing area. A couple of months back we posted with some questions about the Napoleon 1101 but as a few forum members pointed out it is very small.

The final straw is our cash flow as we are committed to being a single income family so my wife is able to concentrate on keeping our four children on track both at home in their various school, music and sports endeavours. This makes many of the inserts out of our reach. Oh, and did i point out that I already own a CSA approved stove that is BRAND NEW!

Right now I am facing going into yet another heating season with only an electric furnace as our heat. Especially frustrating given that the view from my home office that I am looking out right now includes several miles of riverfront woodlot populated largely by Ash trees. We currently have more than 8 cords of seasoned wood on our yard and we have lots of manpower as we have four children, my wife, myself and the in-laws who all live on our acreage. We all enjoy putting up firewood and the satisfaction that comes with seeing a stack of wood gaining interest as it dries.

Has anyone had to deal with this and how in the world did you get past the fact that we were on track to have everything up to the WETT standards? I should add that due to the nature of our home's construction we have a very limited number of companies willing to insure a home like ours. In fact the companies that are willing to insure log homes surcharge the daylights out of the homeowners. This is prior to any discussion of the additional surcharge that will result for a woodstove.

Rant over.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Having some knowledge of insurance companies and the sellers(agents) I would say that you need to go elsewhere for insurance.
You may have a few agents and even if they handle several companies which would make them huge you are not getting a full representation of what's out there for your homeowners insurance.
Look to neighboring towns,cities to see who else you could buy from.
Go online and buy direct.
You have options.

 

[Fsappo]

Now thats a sad story. Did you try talking to a human at the insurance agency? Did you ask them what the specifics were in the lacking clearances? If they give you specifics, can you then offer to make what ever changes are needed to make them happy? Did you consider switching insurance companies or at least calling another insurer and asking them what their viewpoint is on a properly installed certified wood stove is?

Just some of the first things I would do.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

It must be awfully frustrating. Did you appeal to the insurance company proving you are up to standards?

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Thats very frustrating...I would look for another insurance carrier big time!
On another note...let he boo's begin.....I work for an insurance company....but I handle just commercial risks.
Anyway, most insurance companies hate to insure log homes, as most times when you have a loss with a traditional stick built home, you can just repair what was damged in a fire....in a log home, it is much more costly to replace after a loss, as most times they have to replace an entire wall or 2 walls even if you were just to have a small fire in the corner of the house....not saying this is your situtation, but your insurance carrier might have just realized that you have a log home and they are trying to give you the shaft.

 

[karri0n]

I agree that it's definitely time to switch insurance carriers, but is it out of the question to install the stove upstairs? You'll get much more heat out of the stove if it's in the living quarters than in the basement.

 

[lowroadacres]

It has been a little while since I have posted on this matter of being stonewalled on installing a woodstove in our home.

Today we got some good news from our supplier/installer on hardware for lining our existing - never seen a spark- immaculate 28 year old masonry chimney and we are getting ready to sketch things out for our insurance broker to shop to a couple of different companies. We have been frustrated to no end by the current company who covers us as previously stated.

Thank-you to all who have given feedback and we will keep you posted as the process continues. Just this morning I took a ten minute walk to our "woodlot" and located a dozen or more standing dead ash trees to add to the several cords of wood we have seasoned and seasoning on our yard. We have so much wood so close to our home that it is almost embarrassing.

If I had never known the joy of warming our home with wood then I wouldn't be as frustrated as we have been. The point that has been made about placing the stove upstairs has been noted and we are planning, in the long term, to place an epa certified insert in the existing fireplace upstairs. For now it is one step at a time. We have set up the basement in such a way as to maximize air flow to the upstairs while also giving us the best opportunity to manage wood storage and handling. If I were designing a brand new house from scratch I would be doing things differently but with a limited income, more debt already than I want and a stove already paid for that will fit downstairs we are battling through to get this done.

 

[savageactor7]

Could be something local to just MB.

 

[lowroadacres]

It could be that it is something local to one specific person who does not like woodstoves and who is taking it upon themselves to protect the entire world from a few people's lack of maintenance skill. The longer I look into these matters the more I am of the belief that the majority of fires involving solid fuel appliances are about human error not installation issues.

I am waiting for the day when we read of a home owner who is refused insurance coverage over a flaw in their electrical wiring. Personally I do not know of a situation where an insurance company asks for a detailed schematic of your home's electrical wiring before they will cover you. No surcharge either for having electricity in a home when I personally know of several fires caused by electrical issues.

I don't know of a surcharge for smoker's, or owning a lighter, etc etc.... Sorry, I had better quit while I am ahead

 

[snowtime]

Being off grid and snowed in we can not get insurance. My input though is I have talked this over with log home owners in the nearest town who all use wood as primary heat and they have no trouble getting insured. It seems that the insurance companys up here have discovered that when you have a small fire that blackens the walls but basically the house is saved you can just sand blast the logs and do not have to replace the logs. Just thought I would mentioned what I was told.

 

[lexybird]

In the spirit of honesty and going completely front door with my insurance agents I was open with them from day one that I wanted to utilize the second flue and install an approved wood heat appliance to provide some of the heat to our home.

that was your first mistake

 

[heffergm]

Just find a new insurance co. There are tons of them. I'm sure any number of them would be happy to have your business.

 

[grateful]

It has been a little while since I have posted on this matter of being stonewalled on installing a woodstove in our home.

Today we got some good news from our supplier/installer on hardware for lining our existing - never seen a spark- immaculate 28 year old masonry chimney and we are getting ready to sketch things out for our insurance broker to shop to a couple of different companies. We have been frustrated to no end by the current company who covers us as previously stated.

Thank-you to all who have given feedback and we will keep you posted as the process continues. Just this morning I took a ten minute walk to our "woodlot" and located a dozen or more standing dead ash trees to add to the several cords of wood we have seasoned and seasoning on our yard. We have so much wood so close to our home that it is almost embarrassing.

If I had never known the joy of warming our home with wood then I wouldn't be as frustrated as we have been. The point that has been made about placing the stove upstairs has been noted and we are planning, in the long term, to place an epa certified insert in the existing fireplace upstairs. For now it is one step at a time. We have set up the basement in such a way as to maximize air flow to the upstairs while also giving us the best opportunity to manage wood storage and handling. If I were designing a brand new house from scratch I would be doing things differently but with a limited income, more debt already than I want and a stove already paid for that will fit downstairs we are battling through to get this done.

This is why I purchased a wood stove that could be free standing or, reverse the flu collar and it could go in the fireplace. I did put it in the basement and had clearance issues- some kind person told me about sheet metal. I lined the walls and ceiling with sheet metal with a 1 inch clearance from the drywall underneath. This reduces clearances by 1/2. Over here in Washington state anyway!
Grateful

 

[lowroadacres]

Thank-you everyone for your feedback.

Tomorrow I will be starting the "forms" with my insurance broker who will be shopping my policy to a couple of companies. The challenge being that not that long ago there was a million dollar claim on a log home in our area so all of the companies are gunshy in our area.

I will keep you posted.

 

[keydiver]

Havent been able to read everything. Install primary (IE natural gas, oil, electric heating). Install wood heat as back up secondary heat. actually used as primary

Kudos to the stay at home/homeschool mom as well!

 

[hilly]

I went through a similar thing with my insurance agent a few years ago. He had just come back from a conference about wood heat and was sure I was going to burn my house down. He went on to tell me that his office is only allowed a certain amount of high risk clients (I fit into that category) and that I would pay a significant amount more to heat with wood. And I did.

I recently got a quote from another company and an agent called me back. He wanted to confirm a couple of details and came back with a quote $700 less than what I had been paying. I double checked to make sure that he knew I heated with wood and that was written into the policy. To him it really wasn't that big of a deal. If I had known then how differently insurance companies treat wood heat, I would have shopped around years ago.

Simply put, check around with different agents.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

My feelings are that it is probably the combination of a cedar log home and wood heat. Many insurance companies will be very leery of that combination as all they see is wood and fire. Yet, there definitely should be some insurance companies out there because we know there are home like yours that are insured.

Good luck to you.

 

[rkymtnoffgrid]

Getting insurance on my log cabin was one of the most frustrating and scary aspects of buying the place. First of all, it is 11 miles on a dirt road, in a very dense softwood forest, and over 75 miles to the nearest unmanned volenteer fire department. That, plus the fact, that the cabin is off-grid, at 10,000ft, with propane lighting, and wood heat as the only heat source, no company would even entertain us. Then one day, an underwriter told us that our very first hurtle was the fact the home was primary heated by woodstove and was lighted with propane lights. So I installed a couple propane direct vent heaters out of northern, and wired a couple 110 lights which were power by solar. Then after filling out another aplication in which we stated the woodstove was a secondary heat source, and the propance lighting was an emergency secondary source, we were simply approved, the company sent out a rep to inspect the home, the fire setback and the woodstove, the company underwrote the policy and it was business as usual. We did not flat out hide any of the "questionable aspects" of our cabin, but by being a bit crafty on the application, the company was made aware of all the dangerous aspects of the home, in a fashion which was more appealing with them. Honestly, I would install your stove, and start shopping other companies, the new company will send out a rep, but the company will assume the stove was always in house and after some simple measurements, (or picts on your part) you will not have any issues. Make sure any insurace company knows about your wood stove. In my expericence, if you ever need them, your in for a fight as it is, don't give them any unnecessary reasons to flat out deny you or give you less than you deserve.

 

[lowroadacres]

I appreciate the continued feedback. Please keep it coming as one of today's tasks is doing the measurements and filling out the forms for the "shopping our policy around" process.

We are looking forward to hopefully making progress as we love wood heat and all of the process of using sunshine stored in firewood.

 

[lowroadacres]

Well. The forms are now in my insurance broker's hands. My installer is ready to make the call to the wholesale shop for the supplies.. I will be doing most of the labour if we can come to terms with the insurance company.

Ironically today I looked out my South window and saw smoke rising from the bush a ten minute walk from our house. In our area the government actually pays people to go through the bush, spray painting those elms suspected of carrying Dutch Elm disease, cutting the trees down, and disposing of them.

Imagine the btu's that are going up with zero benefit? I am just very glad that the government now plowed a path to the bush so I can harvest out the standing dead ash that is in the same bush as the elm. Picking up my saw on Friday from it being tuned up, new air filter and a carb job. The inlaws love cutting wood so they are itching to see us get the woodstove install approved as well.

 

[gyrfalcon]

It's really amazing how different this is from state to state. When I lived near Boston, I had to say not just whether I was a smoker, but whether I had pets and whether the house electrical system had fuses or a circuit breaker panel. My agent had a heck of a time finding an insurance company that would insure the house without my having to replace the fuse box with circuit breakers. Seems they don't trust people aren't going to be idiots and replace a burned-out fuse with a nickel, although you would think that would be quickly found in any house fire and they wouldn't have to pay off. Being sometimes stubborn, I flat-out refused to spend the money to replace my fuse box with circuit breakers just to make the ins. co. happy, since they're no less safe if you're not an idiot, and I ain't an idiot.

When I moved to VT, however, I was not asked about smoking or pets or fuse boxes. I was asked very carefully and precisely whether I had a dead-bolt lock on the door-- not whether I actually ever used it or not-- which is silly since nobody in the country bothers to lock their doors because it's pointless when your nearest neighbors are a quarter mile or more down the road and any burglar would never be noticed breaking down the door with a tank. I was asked if I had a wood stove, but not what kind, how old, whether I would be using it for primary heat or whether it had been installed by a qualified installer. The vast majority of folks in the country live miles away from the volunteer fire station, and there are no hydrants anyway, only farm ponds here and there. We do pay more for home insurance -- I pay about the same here as I did in Boston for a much, much smaller and less expensive house -- but the conditions here are the conditions, and if an insurance company wants to do business here, they have to be willing to live with them. People who live in rural areas do suffer more damage if there's a fire than folks who live, as I used to, literally across the street from a fire station, but that's a reason to charge higher rates, not to deny insurance altogether. That just seems nuts to me.

 

[lowroadacres]

As promised the updates will keep coming.

Last week I sat down with our installer and I met with my insurance broker. Both of these individuals are frustrated and have taken our project on as a personal goal to get us set up with both wood heat and insurance.

We are finding out very clearly that this is about one individual's militant approach to the application of wood stove installation theory as compared to being in the field. Our broker and our installer are familiar with the individual and we will see how this plays out as both are committed to seeing this through.

We are now going ahead with plans to be ready to make this install a reality as soon as we get a green light from either our current insurance company or whichever new one we find through this process.

While I don't think one can "overbuild" an install we are going to be darn close when this finally comes together. Once we are burning I will attempt to post photos and I will keep you all in the loop. We are still holding out a small amount of hope that we will be able to supplement our home's heat with wood burning for a portion of the winter.

I did though find out today that both our installer and our insurance broker are leaving on holidays soon.

 

[lowroadacres]

Today I met with our insurance broker and he has now found us coverage through a company that is accepting the certified installer's plans for our looooong awaited woodstove.

We have given the green light to ordering the parts we need for lining the chimney and the double walled pipe. Now I can begin the short strokes of readying the install location in our home.

Ironically we are having a record high temperature stretch for January here. This still means we are using electricity to heat our home, just a lot less than we normally use at this time of year.

If things go well, and I know that this is rarely the case, we could be firing up the stove sometime in February which will help us for a few weeks of heating into the shoulder season.

Time to get cracking on next year's wood. There will be more updates to come I assure you.

 

[Hogwildz]

Today I met with our insurance broker and he has now found us coverage through a company that is accepting the certified installer's plans for our looooong awaited woodstove.

We have given the green light to ordering the parts we need for lining the chimney and the double walled pipe. Now I can begin the short strokes of readying the install location in our home.

Ironically we are having a record high temperature stretch for January here. This still means we are using electricity to heat our home, just a lot less than we normally use at this time of year.

If things go well, and I know that this is rarely the case, we could be firing up the stove sometime in February which will help us for a few weeks of heating into the shoulder season.

Time to get cracking on next year's wood. There will be more updates to come I assure you.

Congrats,,,,,,,,, VICTORY