Blaze King King 40 New Cat Stove 2020 Smoke Smell

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
More information on the chimney, this is a 3 flue chimney, one for wood stove, one for oil burner, and one for fire place, and as previously stated 90% of it is in the house free standing.

I can add, the fireplace works flawlessly, no smoke spillage not even at startup.
 

Nealm66

Minister of Fire
Sep 25, 2020
818
Western Washington
If you were still getting a leak with the bypass open, wouldn’t it be the same problem with any other stove? I’m just thinking, with the bypass open, there’s no real difference other than the tubes. But wth do I know
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
18,611
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
About the draft, when the stove is on high the draft measures between .05 and .06wc, when the stove is at 20% it measures between .04 and .05 wc about 4 inches above the collar. I might note that similar values are measured in the hole above the cat.
So the draft spec of .05" at high is fine. It is specified for a stove and chimney meeting the manual's requirements. When you smolder the stove (most of us do for 90% or more of the burn) the draft will fall due to lower exhaust temperatures. This will have a certain effect on an insulated 8" chimney but a much larger effect with your huge oversized masonry chimney. Perhaps enough to allow smoke leaks?

You don't set the stove to 20%. You only turn the thermostat knob and there is a disconnect between the thermostat knob and the actual throttle. Do you think that after 20 or so hours on low, after that huge brick stack has cooled, that you still have 0.05" WC?

Oh and get rid of that magnetic thermometer on double wall pipe. It's reading is meaningless. I would recommend installing a proper probe meter at the proper 18" height above the stove or per the directions that come with the meter. You will want to keep flue temperatures up to prevent that huge masonry stack from filling with creosote.
 

moresnow

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2015
1,667
Iowa
Where is your therm knob pointed for your low and slow setting? Many installs only really use a small portion of the available adjustment range. For instance when reducing my initial wide open setting I will extinguish active flame at approximately the half way position. My setting for low and slow is just less than that point. This leaves almost half the available adjustment range never ever being used. If I try to reduce further than described I can induce the creo/smoke stink at will. I think some folks are having trouble understanding that each install has a sweet spot for a low setting. No reason to try adjusting lower. Something to consider.

I would still question the masonry liner effectiveness as well. No matter what the gauge is reading you are considerably oversized compared to factory spec.

Nice looking install by the way. Hopefully something will work out! Great stove.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Highbeam

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
18,611
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Where is your therm knob pointed for your low and slow setting? Many installs only really use a small portion of the available adjustment range. For instance when reducing my initial wide open setting I will extinguish active flame at approximately the half way position. My setting for low and slow is just less than that point. This leaves almost half the available adjustment range never ever being used. If I try to reduce further than described I can induce the creo/smoke stink at will. I think some folks are having trouble understanding that each install has a sweet spot for a low setting. No reason to try adjusting lower. Something to consider.

I would still question the masonry liner effectiveness as well. No matter what the gauge is reading you are considerably oversized compared to factory spec.

Nice looking install by the way. Hopefully something will work out! Great stove.
He could be stalling the cat every night by spinning the knob down to some overly low setting. After a few hours and the masonry cools, draft spoils, cat stalls, makes smoke smells.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
Where is your therm knob pointed for your low and slow setting? Many installs only really use a small portion of the available adjustment range. For instance when reducing my initial wide open setting I will extinguish active flame at approximately the half way position. My setting for low and slow is just less than that point. This leaves almost half the available adjustment range never ever being used. If I try to reduce further than described I can induce the creo/smoke stink at will. I think some folks are having trouble understanding that each install has a sweet spot for a low setting. No reason to try adjusting lower. Something to consider.

I would still question the masonry liner effectiveness as well. No matter what the gauge is reading you are considerably oversized compared to factory spec.

Nice looking install by the way. Hopefully something will work out! Great stove.

You may be one of many I am looking for, I am attempting to find a group of users of this exact stove that experience the smoke leaking issue, I believe there is a design flaw of some type with this new model and would like to prove it.

So let me ask, please give details on your setup so to compare apples with apples.

And yes, other than the smoke leak this stove burn very well, very controllable, and produces a lot of heat.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
He could be stalling the cat every night by spinning the knob down to some overly low setting. After a few hours and the masonry cools, draft spoils, cat stalls, makes smoke smells.
My definition of low is between 3:30 and 4 o'clock on the dial.
For calibration reference, the dial fully clockwise, against the stop, is near 6 o'clock at the widest part of the band.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
If you were still getting a leak with the bypass open, wouldn’t it be the same problem with any other stove? I’m just thinking, with the bypass open, there’s no real difference other than the tubes. But wth do I know
You have a valid point, I will repeat the test and verify the results. Once the smoke is out into the room it lingers and makes it difficult to continue testing.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
The thermostat on the pipe is in memory of the old VC Vigilant that worked there for many years, and without any smoke leaking out!
 

Nealm66

Minister of Fire
Sep 25, 2020
818
Western Washington
Well if you do try it, just be aware, I did 2 full days (whoops!) with fairly dry wood and it was enough to create a lot of creosote both times. I suspect moresnow might have a valid point and maybe just some experimenting with the swoosh might be the fix. I can definitely feel your pain if you’re house is overheating and you’re looking for an impossible low spot. My princess is new from last year and it doesn’t seem possible to stahl no matter how low I set it . Maybe that’s something new or it could just be more of me being clueless lol
 

moresnow

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2015
1,667
Iowa
I run a Sirocco on straight up and out double wall connector and class A 15 feet overall. Can you detail your loading, start up and eventual turn down routine/timing?

My setup really only emits the smell if I don't do a long enough initial wide open burn and then try to reduce my setting to soon or to far.

Something is causing the smoke smell to seep out at stove level instead of being pulled up and out. Simple right? Not always. So many potential influences in any install. Just gotta stay open minded and identify the issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nealm66

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
Well if you do try it, just be aware, I did 2 full days (whoops!) with fairly dry wood and it was enough to create a lot of creosote both times. I suspect moresnow might have a valid point and maybe just some experimenting with the swoosh might be the fix. I can definitely feel your pain if you’re house is overheating and you’re looking for an impossible low spot. My princess is new from last year and it doesn’t seem possible to stahl no matter how low I set it . Maybe that’s something new or it could just be more of me being clueless lol
Not going to run in that mod for long, maybe 10 minutes or so. The key factor in my second test is when the stove starts exhausting smoke from the door I will switch to bypass mode, open the windows and clear the air, let it burn for 10 minutes then check around the door for smoke. I am fairly confident in the first test but seems worth repeating after reading the comment.
 

Nealm66

Minister of Fire
Sep 25, 2020
818
Western Washington
Well , glad you’re posting your experience and trouble shooting. It adds to the huge volume of knowledge on this site. Some incredibly helpful and very experienced folks on here to help. I’m jealous of your king stove setup. How long are your burn times on average and how much you heating and what’s the layout? I’m sure enjoying my princess stove. Just sipping wood the last week and house is 70-74
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
553
Eastern Long Island NY
I run a Sirocco on straight up and out double wall connector and class A 15 feet overall. Can you detail your loading, start up and eventual turn down routine/timing?

My setup really only emits the smell if I don't do a long enough initial wide open burn and then try to reduce my setting to soon or to far.

Something is causing the smoke smell to seep out at stove level instead of being pulled up and out. Simple right? Not always. So many potential influences in any install. Just gotta stay open minded and identify the issue.
But even then, a cold stove also (generally) has a positive draft and it does not reverse easily as long as some heat is generated in the stove. See the candle trick, which is rather minimal heat production in a cold stove ..?
 

showrguy

Feeling the Heat
Aug 2, 2015
495
Marysville, Pa.
You may be one of many I am looking for, I am attempting to find a group of users of this exact stove that experience the smoke leaking issue, I believe there is a design flaw of some type with this new model and would like to prove it.

So let me ask, please give details on your setup so to compare apples with apples.

And yes, other than the smoke leak this stove burn very well, very controllable, and produces a lot of heat.
I am sure that there’s not a “design flaw” with your stove..
Hell, you might just have a wonky door gasket !! It can happen !!
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
I am sure that there’s not a “design flaw” with your stove..
Hell, you might just have a wonky door gasket !! It can happen !!
Lets assume the gasket is defective and there is a big air gap along the side of the door, what would you expect to happen after you light the stove and close the door?
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
553
Eastern Long Island NY
Lets assume the gasket is defective and there is a big air gap along the side of the door, what would you expect to happen after you light the stove and close the door?

The point being made about design flaws is that if that were the case, the prevalence of these complaints, in particular among installations that comply perfectly with the requirements if the complete system (home, chimney), would be significant rather than sporadic.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
The point being made about design flaws is that if that were the case, the prevalence of these complaints, in particular among installations that comply perfectly with the requirements if the complete system (home, chimney), would be significant rather than sporadic.
Not necessarily, there are many factors; how many of this model stove are in operation; user sensitivity to slight smoke smell, some users may be more tolerant or believe it is normal; how the stove is used, it's possible majority of users run it in the upper range and it leak is not detectable; and of course any reports of the issue have to get grouped in one place where you can then see a trend. You see this all the time with many products that are recalled years after design, development, and distribution.

I look at this device as a black box with an input and output with requirement that the output is presented with - .04 to -.06wc to make it work. What's frustrating is the manufacturer tells me that the -.04 to -.06 wc in a clay lined chimney is not the same as -.04 to -.06 in a stainless insulated liner and with no technical explanation.

My opinion is there is some type of turbulence going on around the door causing localized high pressure zones under certain operation conditions forcing gases through the porous door gasket, and it is possible the insulated chimney is actually creating a slightly higher drafts, draft values that are high enough to neutralize these high pressure zones. Just a theory!
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
553
Eastern Long Island NY
Not necessarily, there are many factors; how many of this model stove are in operation; user sensitivity to slight smoke smell, some users may be more tolerant or believe it is normal; how the stove is used, it's possible majority of users run it in the upper range and it leak is not detectable; and of course any reports of the issue have to get grouped in one place where you can then see a trend. You see this all the time with many products that are recalled years after design, development, and distribution.

I look at this device as a black box with an input and output with requirement that the output is presented with - .04 to -.06wc to make it work. What's frustrating is the manufacturer tells me that the -.04 to -.06 wc in a clay lined chimney is not the same as -.04 to -.06 in a stainless insulated liner and with no technical explanation.

My opinion is there is some type of turbulence going on around the door causing localized high pressure zones under certain operation conditions forcing gases through the porous door gasket, and it is possible the insulated chimney is actually creating a slightly higher drafts, draft values that are high enough to neutralize these high pressure zones. Just a theory!
I find that hard to believe; these things are meant to run "in black box mode" - a majority will not be running it on high (in particular this largest stove of the line...). Moreover, turbulence in this case will *never* create such a big pressure difference that (with the permeability of a properly seated gasket) it will "force out" gases. The pressure differences in a turbulent system without appreciable impedances between locations (as in, an open box with corners...) is *never* enough to overcome the huge impedance formed by the porous gasket if it is seated well. Your opinion just does not mesh with the physics.

The whole point is that the speccing out of a stove includes testing of precisely the whole range of factors that can vary from case to case - and based on that the manual provides a range of requirements within which the stove works. What I've understood here is that the testing (and measuring) is far, far more extensive than I had ever imagined.

There are 3 components of the system, chimney, stove, home. The chimney is the engine; it makes things work. The home needs to be "allowing" the engine to work (get enough make-up air in so that the pressure at the stove is proper). The stove is in between and essentially does its thing by being the (tunable) bottle neck for the gasflow driven by he chimney. It should not leak, in particular if the chimney is performing well.

I think someone asked to check the gasket: is it black on one side and all white on the other side of the knife edge everywhere? If not, you found the problem of why you smell something. But in the end the chimney, the engine of the system creating gas flow, appears not to work hard enough, because if it does, gases would not be coming out but being sucked into a leaking stove.

And finally, there is a grouping of issues - in @BKVP's books (and his head, I have been told...).
 
  • Like
Reactions: EbS-P

Nealm66

Minister of Fire
Sep 25, 2020
818
Western Washington
I’m wondering ( I don’t know crap) what stoveliker said, if there’s a fire starving for oxygen, how does a faulty gasket let smoke out. Maybe if you were to shut the stove down way before it’s ready? Or if there’s something going on with the chimney. Maybe all these gadgets say this or that but in the end , you have smoke coming out when it should be sucking air if anything. I think trying to imply a design flaw on a stove that’s been around this long is futile. I do agree about some folks being less sensitive to wood smoke. I was born and raised and have had wood heat almost all my live and it doesn’t bother me. That would suck
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
The gasket is discolored on the inside and white on the outside and no discoloration in the compressed area.

Can we agree if my observation is true and gases are actually exiting the door gasket that it follows the pressure is higher inside the stove than outside the stove?

If we agree, how can it be explained that the stove continues to burn? If the pressure in the stove is higher inside than outside, and to Nealm66 point, air could not be drawn in to support combustion.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
553
Eastern Long Island NY
The gasket is discolored on the inside and white on the outside and no discoloration in the compressed area.

Can we agree if my observation is true and gases are actually exiting the door gasket that it follows the pressure is higher inside the stove than outside the stove?

If we agree, how can it be explained that the stove continues to burn? If the pressure in the stove is higher inside than outside, and to Nealm66 point, air could not be drawn in to support combustion.
I can't agree with something that is internally inconsistent.

You likely have intermittent draft issues. As you can't smell something if draft is always good - because nothing goes up the pressure hill. As I said before, two things need to work for a stove to not smell: consistently good draft, and, as a secondary safety, a well-sealed stove.

If you have a smell, the draft is not consistently good. There's no way around that. You can try to find a leak in the stove, but that likely is not the primary reason for the smell.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
36
USA
I can't agree with something that is internally inconsistent.

You likely have intermittent draft issues. As you can't smell something if draft is always good - because nothing goes up the pressure hill. As I said before, two things need to work for a stove to not smell: consistently good draft, and, as a secondary safety, a well-sealed stove.

If you have a smell, the draft is not consistently good. There's no way around that. You can try to find a leak in the stove, but that likely is not the primary reason for the smell.
Yes, intermittent draft issues was my initial thought and that is exactly why I purchased the gauge to measure the draft and prove it however the gauge tells me the draft is sufficient!

The gauge was attached during multiple burn cycles and never dropped below .04wc and on average was in the .05wc range. During these cycles the smell was noticeable and it always seems to start when the stove is up to temperature and the thermostat is satisfied.

What am I missing?