Blaze King King 40 New Cat Stove 2020 Smoke Smell

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moresnow

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2015
1,853
Iowa
Sounds like your friend has a nice coal setup. I've always wanted to try a coal stove in my basement for something to play with. Haven't got it accomplished yet.

Soo? Have you decided to get rid of the BK? You've been a good sport trying to iron it out. Hate to see you give up. One thing to also consider is that any other brand/make/model new stove is very likely going to want a liner to truly function correctly. There may be exceptions but.....
If that has any influence on you decision at this point. Keep us in the loop with whatever you do. You may as well hang around!
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
1,503
SE North Carolina
I have been following this thread. Some very good points and suggestions have been made. One informative point I want to raise is this the draft numbers that have been referenced while measurable with your instrument are incredibly smallpressure differences. .01” WC = 0.000360912 psi according to google. If you told me I needed to measure pressure differential accurately to plus or minus 10-20% of 1/1000 th of a psi... It seems like a tall order.

I see the WC measurements as a tool but not an authoritative test. FWIW.
Evan
 
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kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
6,124
07462
Put in an insulated liner and be done and stop thinking about it.
OP has a weird chimney, from what he / she explained the chimney doesnt go straight up from the crock, theres a 30deg transition then straight up, trying to get a liner through that would be such a hassle, if it can even be done correctly. For the given circumstance a stove with higher running flue gasses would better suit the chimney (the chimney is the engine that drives the stove)
There's no doubt that a epa reburn stove would do an awesome job for his case, think of the biggest none cat buck stove, PE, or Lopi. There also should be an issue with selling this stove and getting at least 3/4 worth of inital money back, or if the dealer is good, almost all money back.
 
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RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
I would gladly put in a liner however even with the clay tiles smashed and removed it may only accommodate a 7" insulated liner. This information was given to me by two different masons and I believe it to be accurate.

I would like to have the 7" installed and test with the King 40, but before doing so I have to check with BK and verify the Princess , with 6" flue requirement, will vent properly into a 7" liner in the event the King 40 fails.
 
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kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
6,124
07462
Princess , with 6" flue requirement, will vent properly into a 7" liner in the event the King 40 fails.
A damper for the princess to slow things down works wonders.
 

Nealm66

Minister of Fire
Sep 25, 2020
1,086
Western Washington
The princess isn’t a horrible replacement if it comes down to it depending on your heating requirements/lifestyle. I’ll have about a 20 hour reload tonight and house has been 70-71 with about 38-41 outside roughly
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
Highbeam,

I stumbled onto a thread "Ashford 30 Smoke Smell, again ", quit a few complaints about different models BK with smell around the door, this is a quote from one of your posts. I am interested is what you did between then and now to solve the problem? Was it a chimney upgrade?

"On any burn setting if I stick my nose right to/above the hinge I can detect a creosote odor. Very tolerable and no smell in the room. I do not have a smoke leak. During a hot reload, if even the slightest puff of smoke rolls out we are very aware of that stink in our small home. "
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
19,349
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Highbeam,

I stumbled onto a thread "Ashford 30 Smoke Smell, again ", quit a few complaints about different models BK with smell around the door, this is a quote from one of your posts. I am interested is what you did between then and now to solve the problem? Was it a chimney upgrade?

"On any burn setting if I stick my nose right to/above the hinge I can detect a creosote odor. Very tolerable and no smell in the room. I do not have a smoke leak. During a hot reload, if even the slightest puff of smoke rolls out we are very aware of that stink in our small home. "

I did nothing to fix it. I still experience smoke rollout when opening the door on a partially burned fuel load to load more fuel mid cycle. It’s a pain in the butt! You learn to avoid it.

As I wrote, the room has no smoke smell when the door is closed. That’s very different than your problem from what I read. If my stove stunk up my house and I couldn’t fix it, the stove would be replaced.

You’ve got to realize that for an open stove door with a fire inside not to let smoke into the room the chimney has to be sucking like crazy.

During ignition, cold stove, zero smoke spillage. I think the bypass opening is too small and too low on the firebox.

Oh and my chimney is just 12’ tall in a mild climate. The installation manual only required 12’ back in 2012.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
For mid cycle open the bypass, set the temp to high, open the door a crack, let the pressure stabilize for about 15 seconds then open the door slowly. At this point the smoke should be going right up the stack with no spillage, then trough the wood in, if your hands or arm go beyond the door opening the smoke chases it out into the room, that is what I found with my system. Should't really do that though, the cold room air puts stress on the cat even when in bypass mode. I decided not to worry and do mid burn loading, just replace cat if I kill it. Well, that is if I get to use it, I will not until everything is working properly, little paranoid about toxic fumes even at low levels.

I was more interested in "On any burn setting if I stick my nose right to/above the hinge I can detect a creosote odor". This may be what I detect around the door, and it seems very acidic when it hits the nose . You have to realize I am hyper sensitive to any type of smell, my wife can smell something at the door but can not detect any smell in the house. If you do detect at the door it is certainly in the house, sinking to the floor and most likely gets eaten by the air going into the stove.

Creosote odor should not be exiting the door under any condition, I don't know if you reported your findings to BK or not, but if not you can see how these things can take a long time to be realized. I believe my king 40 has the exact same issue at the door.

The big question, are you running a complaint venting system ?
 

MTASH

Burning Hunk
Dec 24, 2018
179
Montana
I would gladly put in a liner however even with the clay tiles smashed and removed it may only accommodate a 7" insulated liner. This information was given to me by two different masons and I believe it to be accurate.

I would like to have the 7" installed and test with the King 40, but before doing so I have to check with BK and verify the Princess , with 6" flue requirement, will vent properly into a 7" liner in the event the King 40 fails.

Why couldn't you install an oval liner?
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
19,349
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
My venting system meets or exceeds every requirement and recommendation in the installation manual. All vertical, 6”, satisfies height requirements, double wall interior, no key damper.

If I put my nose right up to the hot gasket I can whiff a smoke/creosote smell but no smell in the room. Nobody but me has ever done this to my stove.

Similarly, if I put my nose right up to my dog’s butthole and take a deep whiff it probably smells like his last poop. However, he didn’t fart. See the difference?

If you are hypersensitive to smoke smells and think they are toxic then maybe wood heat is not for you. Water is toxic. It’s all about dose.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
Oval, rectangle are possibilities but the space in the chimney when the clay liner is removed is only guarantee to be 7.5X11.5 the outside diameter of the clay liner. A close match will be a 6.5X11 oval insulated liner, that will chase down after the clay liner is removed. The only remaining issue is the termination at the thimble, this is where the problem may be sense the current clay tile is at an angle, so somehow the T and snout have to make the same angle, around 30 degrees. This is the sticking point, the mason is trying to figure a way to accomplish this. A note, the thimble can not be raised to get over the angle due to insufficient clearance to the wood framing of the house.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
Completed first test burn with silicone gasket, results are encouraging, no smell at door. Only burned 1/4 load for first test. Got the stove up to full temp then throttled down to about 1/4 for the rest of the burn. Absolutely no smell at the door or anywhere else that I can detect. This is only one test, one set of environmental conditions so doesn't prove anything but is a good start.
Pic attached showing silicone gasket.
Silicon Gasket.jpg
 

Nealm66

Minister of Fire
Sep 25, 2020
1,086
Western Washington
Completed first test burn with silicone gasket, results are encouraging, no smell at door. Only burned 1/4 load for first test. Got the stove up to full temp then throttled down to about 1/4 for the rest of the burn. Absolutely no smell at the door or anywhere else that I can detect. This is only one test, one set of environmental conditions so doesn't prove anything but is a good start.
Pic attached showing silicone gasket. View attachment 275429
I’m crossing my fingers for ya. That would be awesome if you could keep the stove
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
19,349
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
I’m crossing my fingers for ya. That would be awesome if you could keep the stove

I’m selfishly hoping for other more durable gasket options and sources.

@RogueChili did you verify glass nut snugness? I can’t even see the gasket butt joint so it looks good. Where is it? Oh and what size was the gasket and did you need to adjust the latch as a result?

Rooting for you!
 
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MissMac

Minister of Fire
Dec 4, 2017
868
NW Ontario
Completed first test burn with silicone gasket, results are encouraging, no smell at door. Only burned 1/4 load for first test. Got the stove up to full temp then throttled down to about 1/4 for the rest of the burn. Absolutely no smell at the door or anywhere else that I can detect. This is only one test, one set of environmental conditions so doesn't prove anything but is a good start.
Pic attached showing silicone gasket. View attachment 275429
Looking forward to hearing about your results with this gasket. Have you asked anybody at BK what they think about you putting this on one of their stoves?
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
The silicone gasket is only to get more data to help define what is going on inside this stove, it is obviously not straight forward.

I know gases can't get by this silicone gasket so a few things can be answered:
  • If still get smell around door, next logical place would be glass seal
  • If low draft causing pressure in firebox is causing leak at door, the gasket will not solve that, than leak will move to next location and I should still be able to detect it. I would guess out around the bypass shaft or the cat temperature probe hole
  • If after prolonged testing and no smell detected, than revisit the possibility some odd actions taking place around door seal forcing gases through porous gasket
The problem with all this is even if the gasket solves the leak it 's not viable in these high temperatures, it will eventually melt.

The kicker is, as far as I know, there is no coating available that can withstand 1000F continues.

Any ideas for gasket material?
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
12,277
Southern IN
as far as I know, there is no coating available that can withstand 1000F continues.
Are you thinking that you could soak a stock gasket with a coating that would seal it? I've seen M230 at a stove shop, comes in a caulk tube but I don't know if it's pliable like silicone is, once it's dry. 900 cont. I don't think the box is ever going to be 1000 degrees; It would be starting to glow at 900, right? Seems like I saw some of that automotive silicone for exhaust systems at 800 or better, intermittent.
 

rdust

Minister of Fire
Feb 9, 2009
4,587
Michigan
My venting system meets or exceeds every requirement and recommendation in the installation manual. All vertical, 6”, satisfies height requirements, double wall interior, no key damper.

If I put my nose right up to the hot gasket I can whiff a smoke/creosote smell but no smell in the room. Nobody but me has ever done this to my stove.

Similarly, if I put my nose right up to my dog’s butthole and take a deep whiff it probably smells like his last poop. However, he didn’t fart. See the difference?

If you are hypersensitive to smoke smells and think they are toxic then maybe wood heat is not for you. Water is toxic. It’s all about dose.

I’ve been anxiously waiting for your dogs butthole example to come up. ;lol
My experience is similar to yours, at times I can smell if I stick my nose to the stove. Never smell it in the room unless I screw up when loading. I have zero worries about “smoke” in my house. We camp all summer long, one weekend around a campfire surrounded by campers who don’t know how to build a fire exposes me to more wood smoke than I’ll probably get in a lifetime with my stove.
 
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RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
I’ve been anxiously waiting for your dogs butthole example to come up. ;lol
My experience is similar to yours, at times I can smell if I stick my nose to the stove. Never smell it in the room unless I screw up when loading. I have zero worries about “smoke” in my house. We camp all summer long, one weekend around a campfire surrounded by campers who don’t know how to build a fire exposes me to more wood smoke than I’ll probably get in a lifetime with my stove.

Rdust, is your venting system in compliance?
 

rdust

Minister of Fire
Feb 9, 2009
4,587
Michigan
Rdust, is your venting system in compliance?

No, I’m running a 5 1/2” liner but it’s 27’ worth and the rise off the stove before the first elbow is a little short of the recommendation. I switched out the 90 for 2 45’s and it pretty much solved a smoke spillage problem I had in the beginning.
 
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Dieselhead

Minister of Fire
Feb 21, 2011
702
NE
Im with “more snow”, try adding 10min to your initial char cycle and turn down to black box mode in smaller increments.
 

Hoytman

Feeling the Heat
Jan 6, 2020
360
Ohio
Allow some more time between opening the bypass and opening the load door too when loading and re-loading.
 

RogueChili

New Member
Feb 21, 2021
37
USA
Follow Up:

Conversation from another disappointed BK owner with same issue. It looks to me there are a few more popping up with this smoke issue.

Posted by BLAZE:
hi there I also having an issue with the smoke smell. upper left above door. mine is a sirocco 30.2. but many people with this same complaint as you and me. wood stove works flawlessly! but a smoke smell when turned down a bit. on high I kinda get a smell too, but less smokey more chemically or unburnt gas. but when turn down its more smoke creosote smell. I replaced the door , still smells. resealed tstat at back, still smells. tried everything. windows open, windows closed, replaced stove pipe, extended chimney. still that smell most of the time. sometimes seems goes away. but always comes back. so sad as it works so great! but can't take this smell. what did u do at the end? live with it or get something else? my installers says to get a Pacific energy non cat! thanks Tony

My Response:
Hi Tony, Sorry to hear your struggling with this issue! Unfortunately I have not resolved the issue to date and most defiantly will not use the stove until the issue is resolved, I will not expose my family to the toxic gases that are escaping the door.

So, tomorrow Shamrock Chimney will be at my property smashing out the perfectly good clay tiles and replacing with smooth double wall insulated stainless liner at the tune of $5600. Like you I appreciate the attributes of the stove; aesthetics, burn time, efficiency, and controllability, the King is truly easy to use set it and forget it wood burning stove. For these reasons I decided to spend the money in hopes it will resolve the serious issue of toxic gases entering the home environment. So much for my thoughts of saving money burning wood, just under $10,000 investment is going to have a long return on investment, that is assuming the new lining solves the issue. If not? My next choice is the Vermont Castings "Defient", I like the look, it is an efficient burner, has thermostatic control, and it does not appear to be so sensitive to the chimney type. There is a local dealer with one connected to a 15' external class A chimney with single wall pipe, two feet rise from stove, 90 degree left turn, three feet of horizontal run, 90 through wall, then 90 base T, and runs fine without any smoke spillage into there shop. I plan to go back to there shop and play with the stove a bit more and really get the feel of things.

I would like to know more about your setup, can you post the details?

My current setup:
8" double wall stove pipe
Two double wall 45's
32" rise from top of stove to bottom of thimble
1.5 ft horizontal run; this is the thimble length, it is inside the chimney
6 1/2 x 9 clay flue liner in perfect condition
29' chimney height from top of stove to top of chimney
Altitude 1100' above sea level


Posted by BLAZE:
Hi thanks so much for the reply! really! We live in a mobile home that has been converted to a house with a solid roof built over and really can't tell its a mobile. chimney first was 12 straight up chimney. brand new install. stove never was hard to light or keep going. noticed this smell more toxic gases at high. , sore throat and lungs.on lower turn down more of the creosote smell. coming from upper left corner most noticeable. called Blaze king said ok you need to go higher with chimney. so went to 15'. draft actually slowed a bit but stove still worked great. but still had the toxic smell. so I replaced the pipe above the stove just in case . both were top quality pipe. still have the toxic smell. then I got it extended again, now at least 19'. and need more bracing for chimney on roof ,draft is awesome, it rips. stove operates flawless. but still toxic smell no change. Blaze king says to remove the thermostat and replace the sealant that maybe faulty, which it was crumbly,but it was so tight in there it wasn't leaking and now resealed. but still the toxic smell. then Blaze King sent me a new door after all of this and me saying its coming from above the door upper left corner. installed door. still this toxic smell, sometimes it does set off the smoke alarm but usually not. So my stove is professionally installed, have had 3 installers look at it, 19-20' of chimney from stove top, new door, 8 cords of primo wood . still this smell. I have a family and worried about our health. only heat source, toxic smells on high more creosote smokey smell on turn down. I have talked to another store who sells and installs Blaze Kings and he said the blaze kings usually have a creosote smell, every time he walks into someones house he knows if its a blazeking. thanks you so much for your help. I think I'm going with the Pacific Energy non cat stove that has secondary burn. recommended by my installer. I too have already spent close to 10000$ to figure this out with no answers and a run around. and to find many others on here with this very same issue. let me know what happens for you. Thank you Tony