Blaze King Odor Problem

[Sandy Alan]

I purchased a Blaze King Princess in 2004. Best purchase we ever made. It worked flawlessly for seven or eight years. About three or four years ago we started noticing an occasional wood burning odor when we turned the stove down to low (say 1.5). We decided to replace the catalyst. We also replaced the door gasket which had never been replaced. This seemed to help some, but the following year we again noticed an annoying odor and even had the carbon monoxide alarm go off in the middle of the night. Pretty scary. The best we could tell the odor was coming from around the thermometer or chimney connector. I called Blaze King and they suggested that I might have inadequate draft (suddenly after 7 or 8 years). My chimney was eleven feet straight up from the stove floor. We decided to add four additional feet. Still on and off odor when we turned the stove down. Decided to check the bypass gasket. It didn't look in bad shape but the retainer was warped along the front edge. It had a dip of about 1/4 inch (maybe a little less) right in the center. Blaze King said I should be able to bang it straight with a ball-peen hammer. I banged and banged but couldn't budge it. I ordered a new retainer from Blaze King, but my local dealer laughed at me when I asked him to repair it, saying they don't do welding. I tried to find a local welder, but they all said they don't do house calls, they are afraid they would burn down my house. They said bring it in, but I can't bear hug an 800lb stove and throw it in my pick up!! Finally a friend used a torch to heat the metal and straightened (kind of...the best he could) the retainer. In went a new gasket ordered from BK. Still get the wonderful smell of smoldering wood throughout the house when we turn the stove down below half. BK doesn't believe the odor would be from a leaking bypass anyway because they said the gas should just go up the chimney, and at worst just cause extra creosote. We clean the chimney every year and never get more than a couple or three cups of soot. Have examined stove top to bottom. All gaskets pass dollar bill test.
Our stove has the outside air kit installed. Combustion air comes from under the house. I've looked up from the bottom and there is not so much as a cobweb that I can see. No problem with combustion. Burns good. We burn pine of varying age and dryness. Always have. It is the only wood available around here. Chimney is double wall pipe, fifteen feet from the bed of the stove to the top. Wind cap that turns with the wind direction. No tall trees within 100 yards of the house. Chimney stands about six feet above the roof of my one story home, and at least four feet above the highest point of the roof.
I am at a loss. Do I have to buy a new stove?

 

[BrotherBart]

First thing I would do is cover the glass in the door real well, open the bypass and close the stove door with a strong light in the stove in a totally dark room and look for leaks.

 

[chance04]

/\ I like his idear /\

 

[rdust]

T-stat on mine has changed over the years.(bi-metallic coil relaxed some maybe). Simple solution would be to burn it a little hotter.

What shape is the pipe in? Mine has to be pulled a part to clean and I know it has taken it's toll over 7 years. I can see the joints have some leaks which could be hurting my draft some but a 30' chimney can handle a leak or two. I wanted to switch to excel dw over the summer but somehow forgot to get it done.

 

[Sandy Alan]

OK, so I did the dark room test and did not see any light coming through anywhere. As for the stove pipe, it looks to be OK. I have to remove it from the stove and slide it up onto the next piece when I clean it, so I am fairly certain that it doesn't fit as snugly on the chimney connector as it originally did, but it isn't loose. There are only two screws holding it in place because the guy who originally installed it messed up in drilling the third hole and it doesn't match up, but it only goes through the outer pipe and as I said, does not match up to the chimney connector hole.
I decided to check the bypass gasket again and it was as flat as a pancake. I just replaced this last year. According to Sud Chemie (catalyst manufacturer) troubleshooting guide, regardless what BK told me, if you have an odor in the house it is either a nonfunctioning catalyst or open or leaking bypass. I replaced the gasket with some I had left over. I also tried to "level out" my still warped bypass with stove cement. All of this actually seemed to help. Less odor, but the "sniff test" tells me I am still getting some around the top of the stove near the thermometer; which raises the question: As important as it is to keep carbon monoxide out of the home, why would BK build a "air tight" stove with a hole in the top, with only a light thermometer laying on it to block gas from entering the living space? I wonder if there is any way to seal that better? Also, why would they make a part (bypass gasket retainer) that is obviously designed to fail ("made of soft metal so it will warp before the stove does"..BK) and be replaced, impossible to replace without hauling an 800lb stove into a welding shop?
This flattening of the gasket in one season also makes me wonder if BK sold me the wrong stuff? My understanding is that this should be super high density material, but it doesn't seem any different from the stuff I buy for the door. Soft, dark grey on the outside, lighter on the inside. 5/8 inch rope gasket. I ordered it from my dealer who ordered it from BK, and both claim it is for the bypass. Has anyone replaced this gasket and found something better?

 

[blueguy]

I am willing to bet your wood smoke smell is not coming from the probe hole. If you search this site, you'll see a few threads dealing with smoke issues, and almost all of them, including my own, originate between the door hinges and the natural convection of heat carries it up the face of the stove, making it seem like it's coming from the top.

The bypass gasket is high density - it isn't "soft", it's more "wiry" if that makes sense. If yours is already flat after one season, I would say that either you didn't re-adjust your bypass tension after installation to account for the increased diameter of the new gasket or they sold you run of the mill rope gasket. Is the stuff you used easy to bend like door gasket or is it stiff? The proper bypass gasket is stiff when you try to bend it and doesn't look like door gasket.

You said you just changed the door gasket - where is the joint in the new one?

How hot is the cat burning when you turn it down this low and it starts smelling? Do it stay in the active zone or does it go inactive?

Also, if your bypass gasket retainer is still bent, you can use a bottle jack to bend it back. Another member (Rustyshackleford?) just did it this way with great success.

 

[Highbeam]

I'm with BK, the bypass seal has nothing to do with smoke leaving the stove. It is an internal seal that just acts to divert the smoke from the bypass door to the cat. Your cat manufacturer is good at making cats, they are not the BK experts. BK is. It's your door seal, glass seal, or your pipe connections.

You said you just changed the door gasket - where is the joint in the new one?

Where is the end supposed to be? My BK has it in the bottom corner by the hinge, my Englander has it in the middle of the hinges.

 

[blueguy]

According to my BK manual (I think), it's supposed to be in the corner. The reason I ask is that I am 99% sure the smoke smell most of the 30 series firebox owners are experiencing is the smoke odour being pushed past the door gasket between the hinges by the air wash. Especially those of use whose stoves arrived with the odd looking flat gasket joint in that location. As a side note, since changing my door gasket this year and paying extra attention to that specific area to ensure it was seated properly (and putting the joint in the bottom corner) my smoke smell is pretty well gone. I haven't smelled it yet this shoulder season and I have had a couple days of 24 hr burning on low.

Good call on the glass too. Sandy - with the stove cold, push on the glass to see if you can move the glass in any direction.

 

[Sandy Alan]

Thanks for your response. There is absolutely no smell around the door, and it is impossible to pull a piece of paper (dollar bill test) out without tearing it anywhere around the door. The junction of the door gasket is the same place where the old one was, upper corner on the hinge side of the door. There is also no smell along the path that smoke/gas would travel to the top of the stove, but is very distinct within six or eight inches of the thermometer. As for the bypass gasket: It is soft EXACTLY like the rope gasket you use for the door, not stiff at all. I ordered bypass gasket from my dealer, he ordered bypass gasket from BK, and the invoice said Bypass gasket. I had originally called BK and asked for the part number for bypass gasket for a Princess Stove and gave the number to the guy at the dealer. He said he didn't carry bypass gasket and would have to order it from BK. But I bet this is regular gasket, not what I expected at all from what I have read, and the original lasted for years.
As for burning procedures, I would love to compare even though I have been using this stove for eleven years I figure I can always learn something new. Here's what I do: Open bypass and set thermostat to high. Start fire with split kindling and one or two white Weber fire start cubes. Close door, but do not latch until fire is going good. When kindling is burning good I will fill the stove with as much firewood as possible and latch the door. As soon as the thermometer is in the active range I will close the bypass. In the past I would then set a timer to 25 or 30 minutes (recommended by the BK manual) and wait for it to go off before adjusting the air flow; but knowing that my bypass warped for some reason, and over burning according to my dealer is a primary culprit, now I just watch the thermometer, and when it gets very close to maximum (about 15 minutes usually) I turn it down one quarter. After about 10 or 15 minutes longer (depending on how cold it is in the house) I turn it down to half. That's where it usually stays until bed time (or I leave the house for some reason), then I turn it to 1/4.
When I add wood I turn it to max., open the bypass, wait a few minutes, open the door slowly and add wood. Then, if it is still in the active zone (almost always is from Nov. to May), I just close the door, close the bypass (usually after a few minutes so the wood is burning good) and put the thermostat back where it was.

 

[Benchwrench]

chimney pipe / liner?

 

[blueguy]

FWIW, my door gasket was passing the dollar bill test just like yours, and the smell was still there. The next time you get the smoke smell, try to smell as close as you can at the top left of the door right up against the fire box. I was convinced that the smell was coming from my probe hole, but when I got right in close, it was coming from the door gasket between the hinges, right about where the gasket joint was. The odour was travelling up the face of the stove right behind the little bit of overhang on the door edge.m

Have you tried a flashlight with the room dark and aimed it at the probe hole? I am not convinced it's coming out there, as you would have to have some serious blockage somewhere up down stream in your flue.

Do you have a convection deck?

Do you have an appliance adapter or is the bottom of your slip joint connected directly to the stove collar? Try sealing the connector pipe to collar joint with some furnace cement. Another member here reported that action made his stove perk up and it ended the smoke smell as well.

Not that you want to, but try either replacing the door gasket or if you're able to without destroying it, remove the gasket and put the joint in one of the lower corners.

 

[Highbeam]

Wow, joint in the upper corner? Never have seen that.

If smoke is leaking from the door gasket it will slither along the face of the stove until it enters the plume of heat rising from the stove top. You would have to almost touch your nose to the face of the stove to be able to smell it. That would be an embarrassing burn. The top of the hot stove is under a vacuum since all that hot air is rising which must be replaced from the sides of the stove top. The suction will pull any door seal leak into the stove top area and trick you into thinking that it came from there.

 

[kennyp2339]

If the door was leaking would the white gasket have a stain all the way through?

 

[begreen]

Normally a leak at the door gasket causes a tarry streak on the inside of the stove door and stove glass as the vacuum of draft pulls the smoke inward.

 

[chance04]

How much if a vacuum is the fire box under with the cat engaged?

 

[Sandy Alan]

OK, I was mistaken. My memory failed me, but I had to wait until the stove burned down to check. The joint IS in the lower corner on the hinge side. I know we replaced it exactly as the old one was installed. I have no problem replacing it again, they are cheap enough and worth a shot. Meantime I found an interesting video, evidently posted by BK, on YouTube. It runs 12 minutes long and is called "How to operate your Blaze King Catalytic wood stove". The interesting part comes at about 10:40. Apparently a common problem. This might be part of my problem because it is only in the thirties outside right now. I remember my dealer telling me, when I wondered why he no longer had Blaze Kings on the sales floor, that he only carries them on special order now because too many people were complaining about draft problems. That was when he talked me into adding another four feet to my chimney.
I'm not sure I know what an appliance adapter is. My double wall pipe attaches directly to the chimney connector. I am leery about putting cement around there because I have to remove the pipe on a regular basis to clean the chimney. It burns like the dickens. As I said, the needle on the thermometer is pretty much buried within 15-20 minutes after lighting the fire. I do have a deck.
Going back to the bypass for a minute: has anyone else replaced this gasket, and if so where did you get it? Using the information from the video, I could see a leaky bypass causing odor. If the catalyst burns up 99% (or whatever) of smoke particulates and mostly water vapor goes up the chimney, it wouldn't make much of a difference if draft were reduced during mild weather; you might get a little smell, but nothing serious. But if unburned smoke were sneaking past the bypass and were not being sucked right away by adequate draft, you could definitely get some stink I would think, and maybe even set off the carbon monoxide detector.

 

[Sandy Alan]

begreen: My glass stays pretty clear. It might get a light, even coat of creosote if I've burned on low for several days, but it burns off pretty quick when I burn hot again. No streaks.

 

[blueguy]

I replaced my bypass gasket - I got the gasket from my BK dealer.

A leaky bypass will not produce the smoke smell. If it did, then every time you opened the bypass, your house would be flooded by smoke.

The connector pipe is still removable after you put in the cement. You just have to reapply it when you put it back together.

I'm basically giving you the reader's digest version of the methods that have yielded results in others' problems with smoke odour. To get the rest, you may want to try the search function.

 

[Sandy Alan]

"A leaky bypass will not produce the smoke smell. If it did, then every time you opened the bypass, your house would be flooded by smoke."
Would it? That's kind of what the dealer said too. But consider this: When you open the bypass you instantly allow a lot more heat and air to go directly up the chimney. You also usually open the intake air wide when you open the bypass, which also boosts heat and air. Either one of these things would instantly increase draft and pull smoke away. Doing both at the same time probably increases draft exponentially.
When the bypass is closed and the air is turned down the fire is smoldering, which produces more smoke and less heat going up the chimney, which is a main feature of a catalyst stove...less heat going up the chimney. Draft is reduced as the chimney cools, and any lazy smoke that sneaks past the bypass (rather than getting burned by the catalyst as it should), hangs around (rather than being sucked away by a strong draft), and finds its way past the thermometer or any less than perfect chimney connecter.
Just a supposition.

 

[Sandy Alan]

And you say the gasket was stiff and wiry? Do you remember the BK part number? The part number on mine was #182. The gasket they sent me was dark grey and looked like the stuff you use around the door. I really appreciate your help.

 

[blueguy]

"A leaky bypass will not produce the smoke smell. If it did, then every time you opened the bypass, your house would be flooded by smoke."
Would it? That's kind of what the dealer said too. But consider this: When you open the bypass you instantly allow a lot more heat and air to go directly up the chimney. You also usually open the intake air wide when you open the bypass, which also boosts heat and air. Either one of these things would instantly increase draft and pull smoke away. Doing both at the same time probably increases draft exponentially.
When the bypass is closed and the air is turned down the fire is smoldering, which produces more smoke and less heat going up the chimney, which is a main feature of a catalyst stove...less heat going up the chimney. Draft is reduced as the chimney cools, and any lazy smoke that sneaks past the bypass (rather than getting burned by the catalyst as it should), hangs around (rather than being sucked away by a strong draft), and finds its way past the thermometer or any less than perfect chimney connecter.
Just a supposition.

Using your line of thought, all of the burned exhaust gases that pass through the cat would leak out too when burning low and slow. Try the trouble shooting and fixes that have been given so far in this thread - you will be able to narrow the cause down and maybe even fix it in the process.

Take out the flame shield and have a look at the face of the cat. What does it look like?

Also, has your dealer come out to do a draft test? If not, that may be worth a shot too.

 

[Sandy Alan]

Thanks blueguy. You have certainly given me some things to check and think about, as has everybody else on here. I am grateful.

 

[blueguy]

Check out this thread https://www.hearth.com/talk/index.php?threads/Princess-bypass-door-gasket.135820/

Post 13 has a pic of the proper gasket (it's the one on the left).

 

[Xc1974]

I think you're chasing your tail. The video says it all. sounds like a draft problem because of mild weather and low burns. In 7 or 8 years have you had trees grow up or put other buildings up around you that could have changed airflow around your house? This could have an effect if you didn't used to have this problem.

 

[Sandy Alan]

No tall trees on my property. I will check everything mentioned here and replace the door gasket again, with extra care at the junction (just in case). The video IS very telling. Whether or not the by pass has anything to do with my problem I don't want to have to replace the darn thing every year! The gasket they sent me looks like the one on the left of post one in blueguy's link. The original one that I took out was gray and stiffer like the one on the left of post 13. I just figured it was so stiff because it had been in for so many years. I wonder if BK changed it so they could sell more gaskets? A terrible thought! So I wonder where I can get one like post 13?? It is a real pain in the you know what to install; not something I want to do annually. Even some of the gaskets at the hardware store look tougher than the one BK sold me. Do you think the new Princess stoves use a different type gasket than the old ones like mine, and they just sent me a gasket for the newer stoves??