Blaze King Princess 29 versus Pacific Summit LE - Insert Replacement for Regency I3100L

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davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
There was no omission. Customers were chasing a specific draft value for their own particular installation. For example, saying .04 w.c., folks would tune their chimneys to reach this value. And in many, far too many, .04 didn't work! Some paid to reduce chimney draft while others took measures and paid to increase draft. That specific value did not take into account user interface and each unique installation.

Once we implemented the minimum "15'" of chimney length, it help a great deal. Of course their are still cases where the minimum of 15' is still not enough. So for one particular install that comes to mind, 15' did result in .04-.05 w.c." However, when the customer opened the door, there was spillage into the room. So the customer added a 2' section of Class A and the draft changed minimally, but there was no additional spillage.

As I have posted dozens of times, as have any others......"Each installation is unique and your mileage may vary!"

Thanks
BKVP
I've just been through it the very bad experience. Ran a Regency classic 3100 l and Accord with the owners manual. After 7 years it has obviously been over fired and cracked. Taking measurements for draft my 30 ft flu had the 3100 at 0.25 to full pegging the meter when running.

I've got my replacement down to two units The princess insert 29 and the Pacific Energy Summit LE.


A local blaze King dealer has been to the house and looked at the installation. I showed him how I was taking the readings and the spreadsheets of the data showing overdrafting.

Folks in the forum said before taking the 3100 out to run some experiments. So I installed the damper and The damper needed to be fully closed and the holes closed in the damper in order to bring the draft down to some reasonable level 0.1ish at full rolling burn with air choked.

I hesitate to purchase the blaze King because with this much draft now I have another lever to operate, the thermometer, the bypass for the cat, and now a damper. The local dealer mentioned a restrictor plate, but that is not dynamic I might be too restrictive during lighting, or not restrictive enough during full burn.

So I'm really in a pickle what to do appeared leaning to the Pacific Energy just based on the simplicity of the operation and the ash and things won't get into the cat that's the place King has.

On the fence. Any thoughts could be helpful. Local people are really nice guy says he talks to you frequently.
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
It seems the opposite case of the upper limit, like in a two story home, that is more in question, i.e.: once the chimney gets to be over 25' tall. What is ok for the Princess insert? The Ashford manual says .05" on high burn. The Princess insert manual does not provide specifics, but in the Troubleshooting section it refers to the missing "Chimney Drafts" and "Drafts" section and measure using a manometer, but no spec. Maybe this section is legacy and didn't get updated?

View attachment 293865

View attachment 293866

I do see in the catalyst issues under the problem, "Crumbling", where the upper limit of .06" is suggested. Is that what the OP should go by?
Thank you for this.. Your help is appreciated. There is no doubt whichever unit I install the Pacific Energy Summit or Princess 29, it will have to be restricted somehow in exhaust or intake to run properly. This is an expensive lesson for me to have learned. But I do not want to repeat the same mistake that would be remiss on my part.

That said this is really difficult in terms of obtaining the correct information from manufacturers and dealers.

Do not want to get burned a second time.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I've just been through it the very bad experience. Ran a Regency classic 3100 l and Accord with the owners manual. After 7 years it has obviously been over fired and cracked. Taking measurements for draft my 30 ft flu had the 3100 at 0.25 to full pegging the meter when running.

I've got my replacement down to two units The princess insert 29 and the Pacific Energy Summit LE.


A local blaze King dealer has been to the house and looked at the installation. I showed him how I was taking the readings and the spreadsheets of the data showing overdrafting.

Folks in the forum said before taking the 3100 out to run some experiments. So I installed the damper and The damper needed to be fully closed and the holes closed in the damper in order to bring the draft down to some reasonable level 0.1ish at full rolling burn with air choked.

I hesitate to purchase the blaze King because with this much draft now I have another lever to operate, the thermometer, the bypass for the cat, and now a damper. The local dealer mentioned a restrictor plate, but that is not dynamic I might be too restrictive during lighting, or not restrictive enough during full burn.

So I'm really in a pickle what to do appeared leaning to the Pacific Energy just based on the simplicity of the operation and the ash and things won't get into the cat that's the place King has.

On the fence. Any thoughts could be helpful. Local people are really nice guy says he talks to you frequently.
Well, it's unfortunate you were unable to possess the data you now have when you invested in your Regency.

Regency is known to make high quality products. Given your data suggests excessive draft, and you attribute that strong (excessive) as contributing to the damages sustained and recognizing something will need to be done to control the draft.....why not invest in another Regency?

As to your solicitation for my thoughts, it is well established here in the forums that as a manufacturer, we are prohibited from suggesting any modification or installation of devices that would (could) alter the low burn rate at which the wood heater was certified.

I will add, there are many Princess inserts installed in tall chimneys. To date, I know of no failures. However, you should not hesitate to reconsider Regency as you already have knowledge of the product.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
4,353
Long Island NY
I repeat that the above reasoning (i.e. the letter of the law) is faulty, because the certification was for a certain chimney set up. As long as that is not specified as mandatory (!), one is not changing the burn rate, but bringing the draft (chimney) into compliance with the tested parameters.

I concur Regency (and PE, and Osburn, and ... ) are good stoves. It's a matter of trust at this point with the OP. (And an understandable hesitance to trust any mfg at this point, given the letter of the law limits to information and advice that is given to him...)
 
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davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
Well, it's unfortunate you were unable to possess the data you now have when you invested in your Regency.

Regency is known to make high quality products. Given your data suggests excessive draft, and you attribute that strong (excessive) as contributing to the damages sustained and recognizing something will need to be done to control the draft.....why not invest in another Regency?

As to your solicitation for my thoughts, it is well established here in the forums that as a manufacturer, we are prohibited from suggesting any modification or installation of devices that would (could) alter the low burn rate at which the wood heater was certified.

I will add, there are many Princess inserts installed in tall chimneys. To date, I know of no failures. However, you should not hesitate to reconsider Regency as you already have knowledge of the product.
The Regency replacement unit under warranty is a size medium and I have a large firebox. I have 14 cord of wood caught ready to go that will not fit in the Regency warranty unit provided to me. I'm done with Regency. I asked for an allowance toward another unit and they still said no..

So whatever the cost of the unit is I just asked for that toward another one and Regency refused. Really can't understand that thinking, it's just turn somebody off to their product line. They literally told me in an email that I would have to cut a few inches off of 14 cord of wood. Imagine that? Instead of just giving me the financial allowance toward another one of their units and staying happy customer.

It's a really weird and somewhat unethical industry in my opinion. Users are not given all the information they need to make proper installations. I understand everybody's playing the dance with the EPA and limiting information so they can keep their sales high. I would do the same thing if I were in your shoes. From the consumer side it really is not enjoyable.

David
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
I repeat that the above reasoning (i.e. the letter of the law) is faulty, because the certification was for a certain chimney set up. As long as that is not specified as mandatory (!), one is not changing the burn rate, but bringing the draft (chimney) into compliance with the tested parameters.

I concur Regency (and PE, and Osburn, and ... ) are good stoves. It's a matter of trust at this point with the OP. (And an understandable hesitance to trust any mfg at this point, given the letter of the law limits to information and advice that is given to him...)
Thank you for the understanding. The only thing Regency really had to do was give me an allowance toward a unit that would fit my firewood. They literally said to cut 2 in off of 14 chords of logs.

The financial loss for Regency would have been exactly the same, and they would not have lost a customer and a customer's trust.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
The Regency replacement unit under warranty is a size medium and I have a large firebox. I have 14 cord of wood caught ready to go that will not fit in the Regency warranty unit provided to me. I'm done with Regency. I asked for an allowance toward another unit and they still said no..

So whatever the cost of the unit is I just asked for that toward another one and Regency refused. Really can't understand that thinking, it's just turn somebody off to their product line. They literally told me in an email that I would have to cut a few inches off of 14 cord of wood. Imagine that? Instead of just giving me the financial allowance toward another one of their units and staying happy customer.

It's a really weird and somewhat unethical industry in my opinion. Users are not given all the information they need to make proper installations. I understand everybody's playing the dance with the EPA and limiting information so they can keep their sales high. I would do the same thing if I were in your shoes. From the consumer side it really is not enjoyable.

David
David,

Thank you. We appreciate your understanding. Fines for noncompliance and potential revocation of certifications is serious for manufacturers of regulated products. Our industry just faced and continues to face regulatory challenges.

I'll give you an example of a RECENT finding by regulators. When a stove is tested, we have several metrics that must be met. Fuel load density/weight, piece length (including the 5/6th rule) etc.

So when we test with fuel that is, say 16" and we load N/S, regulators have said we must not provide any other fuel length option. So if a firebox can accommodate a 20" loaded piece size, but you tested with 16", manuals and brochures must not mention anything but tested piece length. So mfgs are working through this now and updating manuals, brochures and websites.

As to burn rate, while there are certainly many folks who might alter a stove design or in some other manner alter draft to achieve optimal performance, there are also many that would do so just to get longer extended burn times.

Have no doubt, I have read many such comments in website forums.
 

kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
6,541
07462
@BKVP has there been discussion between manufactures about the rigorous epa guidlines, at what point does the yarn of the epa's stipulations get tangled into a big ball and detract from the end products bottom end? Not trying to start a fight but it seems like eventually this is going to turn into a square peg trying to fit a round hole with users having a different advertised experience and affecting a company's bottom line.
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
David,

Thank you. We appreciate your understanding. Fines for noncompliance and potential revocation of certifications is serious for manufacturers of regulated products. Our industry just faced and continues to face regulatory challenges.

I'll give you an example of a RECENT finding by regulators. When a stove is tested, we have several metrics that must be met. Fuel load density/weight, piece length (including the 5/6th rule) etc.

So when we test with fuel that is, say 16" and we load N/S, regulators have said we must not provide any other fuel length option. So if a firebox can accommodate a 20" loaded piece size, but you tested with 16", manuals and brochures must not mention anything but tested piece length. So mfgs are working through this now and updating manuals, brochures and websites.

As to burn rate, while there are certainly many folks who might alter a stove design or in some other manner alter draft to achieve optimal performance, there are also many that would do so just to get longer extended burn times.

Have no doubt, I have read many such comments in website forums.
I'm not sure you understood my point about length of log.

Only mentioned log length because I have 14 cord of wood in the backyard cut to fit in a large size fire box. Regency offered a medium-sized fire box for warranty replacement. All the firewood I have will not fit in the warranty replace unit. So your point about buying another Regency is lost on me if they would not even give me a financial allowance toward a unit that would hold the 14 cord of wood already cut.

And I just think Regency came up short. They took the financial hit for warranty but if they went one step further, losing no additional money, I would be singing their praises. Instead they lost a customer for life.

The biggest point is my flu will overdraft any of these inserts in the industry provides me no direct guidance for a solution. That stinks. If you were me you'd be sitting here stressed out, took a financial hit, and wondering how to heat the house next winter with the firewood stacked out in the backyard.

I'm trying to get blaze King or Pacific Energy to respond with information so I can make a purchase and move on with my life. I've got it down to one or two of these units.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
28,452
central pa
I'm not sure you understood my point about length of log.

Only mentioned log length because I have 14 cord of wood in the backyard cut to fit in a large size fire box. Regency offered a medium-sized fire box for warranty replacement. All the firewood I have will not fit in the warranty replace unit. So your point about buying another Regency is lost on me if they would not even give me a financial allowance toward a unit that would hold the 14 cord of wood already cut.

And I just think Regency came up short. They took the financial hit for warranty but if they went one step further, losing no additional money, I would be singing their praises. Instead they lost a customer for life.

The biggest point is my flu will overdraft any of these inserts in the industry provides me no direct guidance for a solution. That stinks. If you were me you'd be sitting here stressed out, took a financial hit, and wondering how to heat the house next winter with the firewood stacked out in the backyard.

I'm trying to get blaze King or Pacific Energy to respond with information so I can make a purchase and move on with my life. I've got it down to one or two of these units.
You do seem to be skipping over the fact that they honored your warranty even though you had no receipt and no serial number. I am sorry but most companies wouldn't have given you anything due to the lack of info. So I really think you are being a bit to critical of them
 
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BKVP

Minister of Fire
@BKVP has there been discussion between manufactures about the rigorous epa guidlines, at what point does the yarn of the epa's stipulations get tangled into a big ball and detract from the end products bottom end? Not trying to start a fight but it seems like eventually this is going to turn into a square peg trying to fit a round hole with users having a different advertised experience and affecting a company's bottom line.
Our industry has long recognized that we build stoves to pass tests. As mfgs, our goal is to build stoves that pass tests AND ARE SOMETHING CONSUMERS WANT. To be certain, that is very challenging. The greatest threat at this time is the push to automate wood stoves to remove variability as a result of fuel conditions and user interface. I've posted this many times.....that's a pellet stove.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I'm not sure you understood my point about length of log.

Only mentioned log length because I have 14 cord of wood in the backyard cut to fit in a large size fire box. Regency offered a medium-sized fire box for warranty replacement. All the firewood I have will not fit in the warranty replace unit. So your point about buying another Regency is lost on me if they would not even give me a financial allowance toward a unit that would hold the 14 cord of wood already cut.

And I just think Regency came up short. They took the financial hit for warranty but if they went one step further, losing no additional money, I would be singing their praises. Instead they lost a customer for life.

The biggest point is my flu will overdraft any of these inserts in the industry provides me no direct guidance for a solution. That stinks. If you were me you'd be sitting here stressed out, took a financial hit, and wondering how to heat the house next winter with the firewood stacked out in the backyard.

I'm trying to get blaze King or Pacific Energy to respond with information so I can make a purchase and move on with my life. I've got it down to one or two of these units.
I didn't miss your point at all. I can see the frustration on your face from here in Walla Walla. I was addressing how onerous testing has become. How enforceable the laws are to meet regulator compliance requirements.

I can respond to your inquiry by saying over drafting is real, recognized and challenging to address. I am more than sympathetic to your and others concerns on the matter. I cannot assure you that your draft will not be problematic for any of our inserts. As I posted before, I have never yet seen a Princess insert compromised due to over drafting. There are thousands and thousands of them out there and I am certain some are on 30' chimneys. What I do not know, is how they are installed. Perhaps there are members or readers of this thread that own a Princess insert on a tall chimney that can provide anecdotal data.
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
You do seem to be skipping over the fact that they honored your warranty even though you had no receipt and no serial number. I am sorry but most companies wouldn't have given you anything due to the lack of info. So I really think you are being a bit to critical of them
That sounds like more an attorney than anything else. The unit was purchased by me installed by a licensed installer which I provided photographs of. So there is lots of data proving that it is in original owned unit.

I don't think it's being critical it's just pointing out the lack of reasonableness. For the same financial cost they could have made a customer happy as opposed to turning somebody off.

It's the same financial cost to the company, and they end up with a satisfied customer instead of a dissatisfied customer.

It's obvious that you are on the side of the industry on this one you've said it several times.

BKVP has helped me make my choice as well.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,171
South Puget Sound, WA
There is a big difference here. Would you have been satisfied if they wrote you out a check for the i2450 at their cost, not the retail cost, if that was 50% less? It seems like you got the better end of the deal. You have a still working insert that has value and probably could burn for years once the draft is tamed. That has to happen anyway. And, you got a brand new insert with high retail value. Instead of griping, I'd be saying thank you. Regency is not responsible for the original flakey dealer.

You've made your point endlessly. Enough with the bashing. Continual product bashing is against forum rules.
 
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davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
There is a big difference here. Would you have been satisfied if they wrote you out a check for the i2450 at their cost, not the retail cost, if that was 50% less? It seems like you got the better end of the deal. You have a still working insert that has value and probably could burn for years once the draft is tamed. That has to happen anyway. And, you got a brand new insert with high retail value. Instead of griping, I'd be saying thank you. Regency is not responsible for the original flakey dealer.

You've made your point endlessly. Enough with the bashing. Continual product bashing is against forum rules.
To answer your question, I would have taken 50% of the retail toward the other one.

I've said thank you publicly to Regency FYI.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,171
South Puget Sound, WA
Ok, seems like we've beaten this horse to death. Wishing you the best of luck with the replacement.
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
Thank you very much. I was responding to very specific questions. Thank you very much for the help.
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
In the end I ordered the PE Summit LE insert. The unit will be easier to run if I need to add a damper.

See how the story ends.
 
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stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
4,353
Long Island NY
Here's to new fire!
Please keep us updated.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,171
South Puget Sound, WA
Hope this works out well for you. It's a solid insert that is easy to maintain and service.
 
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commguy35

New Member
Apr 21, 2022
5
CT
In the end I ordered the PE Summit LE insert. The unit will be easier to run if I need to add a damper.

See how the story ends.
Interesting. I also have a colonial with about 30' chimney and am ready to pull the trigger on a new PE Summit LE insert. Also in Connecticut, I wonder if we're using the same dealer.

Very interested to hear how it works out for you.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
93,171
South Puget Sound, WA
Hogwildz has been running his Summit insert on a 27 ft chimney with strong draft. Turning down the air quickly and burning thick splits helps reduce the issue. Covering up the boost air intake hole is another step that will help.
 
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davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
Hogwildz has been running his Summit insert on a 27 ft chimney with strong draft. Turning down the air quickly and burning thick splits helps reduce the issue. Covering up the boost air intake hole is another step that will help.
Haven't chatted with Hogwildz in ages.

The damper can help as well as I've learned and demonstrated.
 

Hoytman

Feeling the Heat
Jan 6, 2020
385
Ohio
There was no omission. Customers were chasing a specific draft value for their own particular installation. For example, saying .04 w.c., folks would tune their chimneys to reach this value. And in many, far too many, .04 didn't work! Some paid to reduce chimney draft while others took measures and paid to increase draft. That specific value did not take into account user interface and each unique installation.

Once we implemented the minimum "15'" of chimney length, it help a great deal. Of course their are still cases where the minimum of 15' is still not enough. So for one particular install that comes to mind, 15' did result in .04-.05 w.c." However, when the customer opened the door, there was spillage into the room. So the customer added a 2' section of Class A and the draft changed minimally, but there was no additional spillage.

As I have posted dozens of times, as have any others......"Each installation is unique and your mileage may vary!"

Thanks
BKVP
@BKVP ... That’s 15’ from the fire box floor?
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
544
New haven, Connecticut
Several months after I asked for specific draft values, Pacific Energy stepped up and sent information. I'm glad I went with Pacific Energy everyone else seemed to be dodging and answer for me. Now the difficult part is achieving the values with the installation I have. Perhaps a separate thread for that.
 
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