Block-off plate or kaowool wrap? Or both?

[KateC]

So after 2 winters of dealing with the Most Evil Exterior Chimney and an installer/dealer who not only refused to do a block-off plate but insisted the solution to my not-enough-heat-out-of-my-insert problem is to---get this--- '' remove that stupid, useless baffle-thing the EPA makes them put in there'' (wha.....???) I decided not to deal with him anymore and get somebody else---yeah, duh. Anyway, they're coming to sweep the chimney and give me an estimate for the block-off and I'm wondering if I should have him insulate around/behind the insert instead (cost/evectiveness/ ease of execution). Would doing both be overkill and cause a meltdown and/or is either one a better option? I not only have the evil exterior chimney but it's an old 50's heatform type with the vents. Thanks guys.

 

[Hogwildz]

I installed my Summit in similar older fireplace. I installed block off plate below damper area myself.

 

[bluefrier]

Putting some insulation on top of the block-off plate instead of around the insert would be a reasonable solution.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

blockoff plate needs to be there anyway. insulation may help depending in flue size and height. hard to make that call without knowing all specifics, when the other sweep comes and does the flue , be there! see what he gets out and see what he thinks based on what he gets out.

BTW your origional dealer who suggested you voiding your listing by modifying the insert(removing the baffle) is an IDIOT. glad to see you sought a second and hopefully better (couldnt be worse OMG! ) opinion.

 

[KateC]

Thanks Hog---I know you did---followed your thread then because our set-ups are so similar. Belated thanks by the way for the tip about closing off the vents---made a big difference. I hadn't found this site until after we had the stove in and were already burning, then the next season after I knew more I asked about having the block-off put in but the guy poo-poo'd me as a stupid woman. We started burning early last year and didn't have time to get somebody else. DIY is really not an option as I'm 112lbx. soaking wet and the Man is not---uh,---mechanically gifted. So did you also insulate around the stove in the fireplace box itself or do you find the block-off sufficient?

 

[KateC]

blockoff plate needs to be there anyway. insulation may help depending in flue size and height. hard to make that call without knowing all specifics, when the other sweep comes and does the flue , be there! see what he gets out and see what he thinks based on what he gets out.

BTW your origional dealer who suggested you voiding your listing by modifying the insert(removing the baffle) is an IDIOT. glad to see you sought a second and hopefully better (couldnt be worse OMG! ) opinion.

Believe it or not, he told me that it was the manufacturer's advice to remove the baffle, and that he now does it with all his stove installs----and doesn't even inform the customers. When I asked him about voiding the warranty and/or overfiring the stove he said, ''I just won't tell them.''

For specs, it's a 15ft. insulated ss. inside a masonry exterior chimney---double flue with oil furnace----fwiw if the furnace is off we lose so much heat into the masonry that sometimes we can't even keep the blower running. We really only meant the insert to be a boost and not the sole source of heat but it makes me nuts that it could be doing so much better.

 

[KateC]

Also, the sweep after the first season only yielded half a coffee can of fluffy nasties---not bad for an inefficient set-up and first-year crappy wood.

 

[Hogwildz]

1/2 a coffee can is about right, and shows great burning technique.
I just did the block off plate. I did have a lil kawool left from the old Fuego flame block off and layed that on top of the block off plate only. Prolly ain't doing much.
Me personally found the block off plate more than sufficient. To insulate around the insert walls or top itself.... I just don't know. I actually want the masonry around it to soak up some heat to release slowly later, when stove cools or I should say if it cools. I want the air to circulate around, and I just fear not letting it breath would possibly make it run too hot, or get the casing too hot.
My stove heats the entire home mainly do to the combo of big fire box & excellent circulation throughout the house. I don't foresee changing anything.
Depending where you are up thar, if you find it hard to get someone to do the block off plate, let me know, If its not super far, I can come do it for you & the hubby.
Especially if your near the finger lakes, man I love riding up that way, its paradise.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

well it sounds like the act of burning isnt an issue but heat retention is. that fireplace is a rather large thermal mass and getting it heated is probably a chore, BTW does the fireplace have a clean out that leads outside? if so make certain it is shut and gasketed. this is an unthought of sneaky leak that can let in cooler air which can keep the fireplace cooler.

on a personal note , god bless you for putting the breast cancer link in your signature line, i clicked and urge the rest of the gang to do so as well

 

[Hogwildz]

I followed Mikes advice and clicked the link. I clicked the button too.
I'm all for giving women free mammograms.
And I am behaving real good not to add to that and get myself in trouble
OH GAWD I WANNA SAY IT!
Sorry, had a moment.

 

[KateC]

1/2 a coffee can is about right, and shows great burning technique.
I just did the block off plate. I did have a lil kawool left from the old Fuego flame block off and layed that on top of the block off plate only. Prolly ain't doing much.
Me personally found the block off plate more than sufficient. To insulate around the insert walls or top itself.... I just don't know. I actually want the masonry around it to soak up some heat to release slowly later, when stove cools or I should say if it cools. I want the air to circulate around, and I just fear not letting it breath would possibly make it run too hot, or get the casing too hot.
My stove heats the entire home mainly do to the combo of big fire box & excellent circulation throughout the house. I don't foresee changing anything.
Depending where you are up thar, if you find it hard to get someone to do the block off plate, let me know, If its not super far, I can come do it for you & the hubby.
Especially if your near the finger lakes, man I love riding up that way, its paradise.

Yeah, I wondered if it might be a bit much to wrap the stove, but I had read a thread here about it and wondered. I get it about letting some of the masonry heat up but man, over half my insert is in the fireplace and over half the fireplace is outside on the front stoop! I'll definitely get the block-off done one way or another.

Hog, your offer to come help is so humbling I can't respond coherently. You da man. We're about an hour directly north of Albany, just inside the Adirondacks---not the Fingers but lots of impressive lakes, gorgeous views and we have deeded beach rights on the Hudson. I could also mention my talents on the charcoal grill----my smoked chicken breasts have been known to induce grown men to tears....Ever hear of Americade?? Big ''hog'' rally in Lake George every year---right by me.

I'll get'r done though---we small ones can be stubborn.

 

[KateC]

I followed Mikes advice and clicked the link. I clicked the button too.
I'm all for giving women free mammograms.
And I am behaving real good not to add to that and get myself in trouble
OH GAWD I WANNA SAY IT!
Sorry, had a moment.

Don't have to say it Hog----you're thinkin' it so loud I can hear it all the way up here!

 

[KateC]

well it sounds like the act of burning isnt an issue but heat retention is. that fireplace is a rather large thermal mass and getting it heated is probably a chore, BTW does the fireplace have a clean out that leads outside? if so make certain it is shut and gasketed. this is an unthought of sneaky leak that can let in cooler air which can keep the fireplace cooler.

on a personal note , god bless you for putting the breast cancer link in your signature line, i clicked and urge the rest of the gang to do so as well

No clean-out Mike but still getting it heated is 'a chore' to be sure. Wasn't it you that wrote the post about wrapping the stove btw? I have it printed out somewhere and was gonna send it to 'the stooge' who wanted to ditch my baffle.

Thank you for noting and following the breast cancer link---at the top of the page are more for rainforest, shelter babies and such---I make the rounds every day.

 

[Hogwildz]

1/2 a coffee can is about right, and shows great burning technique.
I just did the block off plate. I did have a lil kawool left from the old Fuego flame block off and layed that on top of the block off plate only. Prolly ain't doing much.
Me personally found the block off plate more than sufficient. To insulate around the insert walls or top itself.... I just don't know. I actually want the masonry around it to soak up some heat to release slowly later, when stove cools or I should say if it cools. I want the air to circulate around, and I just fear not letting it breath would possibly make it run too hot, or get the casing too hot.
My stove heats the entire home mainly do to the combo of big fire box & excellent circulation throughout the house. I don't foresee changing anything.
Depending where you are up thar, if you find it hard to get someone to do the block off plate, let me know, If its not super far, I can come do it for you & the hubby.
Especially if your near the finger lakes, man I love riding up that way, its paradise.

Yeah, I wondered if it might be a bit much to wrap the stove, but I had read a thread here about it and wondered. I get it about letting some of the masonry heat up but man, over half my insert is in the fireplace and over half the fireplace is outside on the front stoop! I'll definitely get the block-off done one way or another.
Ah, see my chimney backside is not inside my soon to be new bedroom. So any heat that absorbs through now goes into the bedroom. Its not much, but it is a small amount.
You could try and insulate around it, but not sure how tight an area you have, and I am just concerned about concentrating heat that I am not sure manufacturers designed for.
Thats only my opinion though.

Hog, your offer to come help is so humbling I can't respond coherently. You da man. We're about an hour directly north of Albany, just inside the Adirondacks---not the Fingers but lots of impressive lakes, gorgeous views and we have deeded beach rights on the Hudson. I could also mention my talents on the charcoal grill----my smoked chicken breasts have been known to induce grown men to tears....Ever hear of Americade?? Big ''hog'' rally in Lake George every year---right by me.
Ah, around 5 hrs. 278 miles, thats not so bad. Americade, yes I have heard of it. I might have to ride the hog up thar.
And I can tell you, food is better than gold to me
If you have any problems, let me know. The offer stands.
I can be a real Ahole at times, as I am sure many can confirm, but when it comes down to it, I like to help folks.




I'll get'r done though---we small ones can be stubborn.

 

[KateC]

Ahole?? Sweetie, we'd get along fine---s**thead's my middle name and I've been told more than once I'm going straight to you-know-where----but it's been my expereience that the snarkiest people are the first ones to give you their boots in a blizzard.

 

[Hogwildz]

Ahole?? Sweetie, we'd get along fine---s**thead's my middle name and I've been told more than once I'm going straight to you-know-where----but it's been my expereience that the snarkiest people are the first ones to give you their boots in a blizzard.

HAHAHA, Holy sheet, I think I met the female version of me

 

[KateC]

Ahole?? Sweetie, we'd get along fine---s**thead's my middle name and I've been told more than once I'm going straight to you-know-where----but it's been my expereience that the snarkiest people are the first ones to give you their boots in a blizzard.

HAHAHA, Holy sheet, I think I met the female version of me

Eeeep! That could get really scary. :coolgrin:

 

[Hogwildz]

Ahole?? Sweetie, we'd get along fine---s**thead's my middle name and I've been told more than once I'm going straight to you-know-where----but it's been my expereience that the snarkiest people are the first ones to give you their boots in a blizzard.

HAHAHA, Holy sheet, I think I met the female version of me

Eeeep! That could get really scary. :coolgrin:

I just noticed your in Lake Luzerne, NY., I live in Luzerne County, PA. LMAO, man this is like Bizzaro world

 

[weilmd]

This is a great thread...seems honest and informative.

So, here's my question(s)...

I am looking to put a fireplace insert in a 1950's fireplace. Like Fire Honor Society Kate, I'm in Northern New York, so cold is well established. Here's what's going on...

I have a 3 flue internal chimney, well built, in good shape. Smallest flue is SS lined for gas hot water heater. next biggest is SS lined for a Lopi plate steel/cast doors 15+ yr old insert in the basement fireplace...up on a 16"+/- elevated hearth. Works great, not terribly efficient; heats most of house moderately with use of fans. Largest flue goes to built in sandstone faced fireplace in main floor (ranch: basement plus first floor). Have never used the fireplace in 12+ years...have flue closed off and flue at top plugged tight to control losses.

So, looking to place a second insert in living room fireplace. This fireplace is at floor level...there is 16" of red commercial kitchen looking tile in front; tile is about 6' wide. Fireplace opening is 26" high, and a mantel is 12" above that. The fireplace "firebox" appears to be a metal insert of some sort; tapered from 33 to 23" front to back, and tapered towards room from the back to where it joins the flue damper. The damper is about 6"x22" and the handle has "Heatilator" stamped on it. The house is heated with hot water from high efficiency gas boiler...doesn't use a chimney, thus the "spare" flue. Run the Lopi pretty much all winter to cut gas use. The house is about 1700sf per floor; bedrooms don't need much heat (like it cool). Want to add the second device to further limit gas, but will probably not be totally wood due to work schedules, etc. Will probably be in this house 6 more years or so...

Here's the quandry.

1. What kind of fire device? I'm thinking of an insert, but a hearth stove has crossed my mind. I'm not interested in a catalytic unit. Soapstone gets me excited, but is it worth soapstone expense for an insert? Looked at info on Napoleon, Lopi (man, is their website slow!), Hearthstone, Quadra Fire, Morso, Jotul, Regency, Vermont Casting and Pacific Energy. (btw, I've read through a lot of ChimneySweepOnLine information...gosh, I wish Tom Oyen were in MY neighborhood...a guaranteed customer I'd be!) Read lots of reviews...of course, no absolutely right answer.

2. Clearances. Do I have a problem with the front/hearth clearance? It isn't elevated; I don't really know the Rvalue of the tile, but it "feels" by tapping with my hand like it is installed on hard material...maybe concrete from below but cannot tell. What to do with this?

Mantel...I'm reading that combustible mantle needs to be 24" or more above stove. I have 12"...how to deal with this?

Steel firebox...I am not familiar with these devices. Can they be "easily" removed to make room for the insert? Modified? Is it better to get a "rear" discharge stove, increase the hearth size/insulation, and pipe it up through the former damper? Not sure I like this idea.

3. Chimney. The downstairs chimney now has a 6" SS liner installed. The contractor doing it had to hammer into the back of the block chimney to get access to the flue so he could pull the liner around the bends. He told me he put insulation where he hammered through, at the bottom at the entrance to the flue, and at the top below the cap. He said it is better to have it totally insulated/isolated to keep heat in the chimney structure. I've also been told it should/must be vented at the top. I know that the internal chimney adds a LOT of heat to the house...it is usually 125 degrees or so and radiates a lot of heat to the kitchen/living room. It radiates more now than before the liner was installed (a 7" square tile flue didn't seal at the 6" pipe from the stove...I was told this is REAL bad, so I had the liner added). Comments? Thoughts?

Thanks for your interest and comments!

Mike

 

[weilmd]

Can I get a quick answer to what the block off plate is? I'm new to this thread/subject...

Mike

 

[rickw]

A block off plate is a steel plate that sits on the same spot the old fireplace damper used to sit. It closes off the space around the flu so there is no free passage from the fireplace to the upper part of the chimney (except thru the liner itself).

It is regarded as desirable from a safety standpoint - in case of a flue fire it is less likely for a mass of burning creosote and melting steel to come crashing into the fireplace. It may be required for a hearth stove - I'm not sure on that. It is NOT required for an insert, and it it isn't easy to get an installer to put one in for you. The reasoning is that the faceplate around the insert itself is enough of a barrier.

It is also regarded as desirable from an efficiency standpoint. Good luck is getting someone to put one in this year. Why? The last time I was at the stove shop they said they were doing 4x the normal business - meaning they are not probably interested in a time consuming job. I wasn't able to get an installer to bite on putting one in a couple of years ago; they all just said "you don't need it, it isn't required".

The are enough horror stories of houses burning down from flue fires that putting one in is a good idea. Having said that I burned a Lopi Answer insert for 3 years with no block off plate. The last year I did wrap the insert with rock wool and although it was happier and burned a lot hotter and cleaner, I'm not sure I actually used less wood. The only way to burn that little stove efficiently was to add one piece at a time; which doesn't actually work very well.

This year I'm putting in a Fireview - and will be fabricating my own block off plate. Cheers.

 

[Hogwildz]

Make sure the 3 flue liners end at 3 different heights, don't want one possibly back drafting gases from another back into the home.

 

[weilmd]

Thanks for the reply, Rick. So, if I understand it right, and if I'm clever enough, I should be able to use the damper flue plate for the blockoff plate. I looked a bit on line and see there are transition pieces that go from 6" round to oval/rectangular (to get through the damper area, I presume), then back to round to connect to the chimney liner. Or, I could get a torch and cut the plate into a round hole and pass the liner through it. Thanks.

So, to query your thought on a similar thread...blocking off the chimney from the liner is, in your opinion, a good thing to do? I have a Lopi (old) in the cellar that just crammed a 6" round into a 7" square...didn't make a very good fit. 2 years ago, I had a liner installed...quite a chore for the installer, but got it in nonetheless. He advised, and in fact did, stuff the cavity at the bottom and top with rockwool. He said it makes it burn better. It has worked well.

Honestly, though, with NO liner, and the lousy connection at the bottom, I NEVER cleaned the chimney once in 10 years...oh yeah, I looked each year, but the chimney was spotless. Never a drop of creosote! For the last 2 years, I actually bought a brush and cleaned it at the end of the season...got 1-2 coffee cans of dried ash, which I'm told is good, but not as good as it had been! But the upside, is that the old stove is throwing FAR more heat than previously. And, like previously, when it is up to temp (usually takes 20 minutes or less), there is NO visible evidence of a fire going from the outside, unless you look carefully and see the heat waves coming from the chimney. Pretty amazing to me.

Anyway, thanks for the reply....I WILL be putting in some kind of a block off plate.

To a warm, short winter...

Mike
Northern NY

 

[rickw]

My liner is a 6" flexi-liner and the installers just squashed it to get by the damper area.

Usually the block-off plates are 2-piece, each with a semi-circular hole so that they can be installed one at a time around the liner, overlap, and then be screwed down to the damper seat. Plus lots of silicone sealant. At least that's what I hear, having never actually seen one. I'm not so sure about using the existing damper plate, would you remove the liner first then thread it thru the torched hole?

Try a search on block-off plates. You'll find a bunch of stuff, diagrams, etc. Claims that its fast and easy, etc (uh huh).

 

[Edward Harrigan]

First of all Is your chimney lined to the top with a stainless steel liner. 2. a plate is required by code and will help with your stoves performance. 3 if you have an outside chimney insolation can only help your problem.