Building a cottage, need fireplace advice.

[lungdoc]

Hello. We will be building a vacation home next year in Muskoka ON (two hours North of Toronto, lots of Winter). Wanted some advice on a fireplace. Plans call for a 'zero clearance' type with a framed chimney (plan to do cultured stone on chimney outside and inside). 2200 SF on upper levels (plan for a woodstove in future when we finish walkout level). Great room with lots of windows facing the lake is 16 x 24 and extends up two stories, fireplace in that room. Mainly want aesthetics but some heat (and not heat loss at least) would be nice. Limitless supply of good firewood. Would like to be able to run with doors open for look/feel at times, prefer double to single doors.

Our heating guy suggested a BIS Tradition, but I nearly choked on the proposed installed price of ~9500 cdn. What I wanted to know was whether that is a reasonable price (and I should just suck it up because you get what you pay for) or what other options might be. I did like the look of the Quadrafire 7100FP though might need to modify plans to fit (??) and the MSRP of about 4300 US seemed a lot lower (unless installation and chimney cost a lot more than I would think, install was not including the cultured stone etc.)

If anyone cares a larger version of the main floor can be seen here (broken link removed)

I appreciate any advice.

Mark

 

[jtp10181]

Similar post: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/11087/

The Quad 7100 would work, if you think it might not fir just get the dealer to print off some framing specs and go over it with the builder, I'm sure they can make it fit. Be aware you need about 10" extra on the right side for a 6" fresh air intake.

 

[begreen]

T'aint no cottage, that's a house. Please consider not putting the fireplace on an outside wall. You will get more benefits if the masonry is inside the house envelope. Maybe locate it diagonally in the corner where the W.I.C. is?

 

[lungdoc]

Thanks for the advice. There won't be any real masonry (just decorative Corning cultured stone, much less$$) and I'd rather not relocate the fireplace - aesthetics and convenience trumping heating efficiency, I know.

Any thoughts on price range for a zero clearance fireplace - purchase and installation?

 

[david Lee]

The Le Val by Security Chimney's (Same manufacture as the BIS) fits your product description. Good heater, operable glass doors, good size. http://www.securitychimneys.com/pages/fireplace/Le_Laval

 

[builderbob]

Thanks for the advice. There won't be any real masonry (just decorative Corning cultured stone, much less$$) and I'd rather not relocate the fireplace - aesthetics and convenience trumping heating efficiency, I know.

Any thoughts on price range for a zero clearance fireplace - purchase and installation?

For complete install price for a Bis Tradition, I don't think the $9500 cdn quoted you was much out of line. It takes SS solid pack chimney, and since you run up a bit over two stories, that's a fair amount of chimney pipe. The faceplate and doors finish option would affect part of that price. The hammered steel is most expensive, gold less so, and black the cheapest. But I don't know if finish would make more than maybe $500 difference in price range.

Another option is the KozyHeat Z42------ www.kozyheat.com tab to products, fireplaces, woodburning Z42 or Z42-CD (cast iron doors)

Also the Lennox Montecito Estate is a clone of the Bis Tradition (Lennox owns Security Chimney Co who makes the Bis line). If there are Lennox dealers in your area who compete with the Bis dealers, maybe you could get a competitive bid.

 

[Charlie Z]

Congrats on building your cottage!

If I were building a home today, I would build it around a "masonry heater" of some sort. (see http://mha-net.org/) You have the opportunity to design your house around the best way to heat with wood.

A friend built a masonry heater into her 2700' home plan in the early 80's with proper flow vents (registers) in the plan, and she burns 2 cords a year (and has a terrific bread/pizza oven to boot). Her neighbors have an old 1500' home and use a 'tin appliance' (VC), burning 4-5 cords over the same winter. Masonry heaters are very efficient and proven proven over centuries (in scandanavia and eastern europe, it was how it was/is done).

The neighbors are building a new home this spring with a masonry heater in the center, poured with the foundation. It's best built into the plan.

Cost seems to be a bummer - it will cost $30k US (about $142.38 Canadian - but a standard contractor fireplace can easily cost $20k (and heats poorly). In terms of looks, you can put whatever tile or stone you want on an MH.

Tulikivi make modular 'store bought' versions. http://www.tulikivi.com/www/kotiEn.nsf/indexEn!OpenForm

Good luck.

 

[lungdoc]

Thanks for the advice - that LeVal looks like it might be very good for our needs. I appreciate the thoughts re masonry heater but I don't think it's suitable for us - we won't be there most of the time (weekend/holiday use esp. in winter).

Mark

 

[fishboat]

With regard to the Bis Tradition & solid pack chimney piping....the solid pack isn't required on the BIS Tradition but it is required on the Lennox Montecito version...this is per my dealer that is installing a Bis Traditon CE in a few days. The Bis Traditon CE only requires the double-wall, air cooled chimney piping.

My estimate for the install is as follows: $3400 USD for the basic Trad-CE unit (black on black). +$35 for the black cast iron door. $400 for the install including all parts, chimney piping(20 feet), fresh air kit...etc. +$400 for tearing out old unit & disposal.

 

[Gooserider]

I have seen multiple reports that while the solid pack chimney may not be required, the air cooled chimney is a bad idea in cold climates - that the solid pack is much better. The air cooled can be a major source of cold air intrusion into a house, especially if the fireplace is not being used. When it is in use, the AC chimney is claimed to hurt the burning efficiency.

Given the OP's location, I would only go with solid pack.

Gooserider

 

[david Lee]

The LeVal uses only solid pack 10" Secure Temp pipe. In your climate, you do not want to use air cooled pipe. A single story system (box and pipe) on the LeVal will run about 6K @ MSRP + Installation and permit fees.

 

[builderbob]

With regard to the Bis Tradition & solid pack chimney piping....the solid pack isn't required on the BIS Tradition but it is required on the Lennox Montecito version...this is per my dealer that is installing a Bis Traditon CE in a few days. The Bis Traditon CE only requires the double-wall, air cooled chimney piping.

My estimate for the install is as follows: $3400 USD for the basic Trad-CE unit (black on black). +$35 for the black cast iron door. $400 for the install including all parts, chimney piping(20 feet), fresh air kit...etc. +$400 for tearing out old unit & disposal.

The Bis Tradition, is a different model than the Bis Tradition-CE (which I think stands for compact edition). The CE is naturally smaller, and so costs less. The bigger BIS Tradition is an near exact clone of the Lennox Montecito Estate. The Ce may allow use of air-cooled, but the bigger Tradition does require solid pack.

At any rate 200 miles north of Toronto, I don't think I would do anything except solid pack chimney. Provide better draft, less creosote buildup, less condensation/rust problems IMHO.

 

[builderbob]

The Bis Tradition, is a different model than the Bis Tradition-CE (which I think stands for compact edition).

You can compare the Tradition and the smaller CE version at this link:
http://www.securitychimneys.com/pages/fireplace/cat_high.asp?country=us

Don't go air-cooled chimney. You'll regret it.

 

[fishboat]

Lennox bought Security Chimney a while back so the Lennox Montecito series is a re-branding / rename of the Security Tradition units. The installation manual I have appears to cover both the Tradition & Tradition CE (thus my thoughts on the AC piping being OK for both), but as I look at it closer the manual does address the CE only...sorry for the errant info.

The manual states nothing about the downside of the air cooled chimney, but I don't doubt what you're saying is true. I'm in Wisconsin, so it matters. To be honest I'm so busy in other areas I didn't have time to give it some thought(it does make sense)..I was hoping the dealer would give me what I needed...guess not.

Ugh. I'm 6 days out from the install...guess I'll go see the dealer & have him get some solid pack pipe.


That's what I get for not spending enough time here. I'm sure I can turn things around...it's only money...

 

[swestall]

Hello,
That is not a cottage, it is a cottage designed home for the lucky one: I guess that's you. Take a look at the Pacific Energy T-6. I bet you have a dealer locally.
Good luck with your funspot!

 

[lungdoc]

Great advice guys. Definitely don't want to have condensation problems or significant heat loss when we aren't using fireplace (most of the time...). The Lelaval installed price is about 1000 cheaper than the Tradition; apparently takes 10'' Secure Temp (versus 7" for Tradition). Learned a lot reading these responses and following the links etc; I certainly don't mind spending for quality but it's nice to know what I'm getting for the $$.

 

[lungdoc]

Hello,
That is not a cottage, it is a cottage designed home for the lucky one: I guess that's you. Take a look at the Pacific Energy T-6. I bet you have a dealer locally.
Good luck with your funspot!

Thanks - I know it's more home than cottage (and will be worth a LOT more than my home!) but these days with the land prices in Muskoka and the fixed costs of wells, septics, road etc. it really doesn't make much sense to build much smaller in this location (he said, justifying it to himself...). The T6 appears to be a stove as opposed to fireplace - looks perfect for our eventual downstairs use (which will be finished much later) but not what we're looking for now.

 

[builderbob]

Great advice guys. Definitely don't want to have condensation problems or significant heat loss when we aren't using fireplace (most of the time...). The Lelaval installed price is about 1000 cheaper than the Tradition; apparently takes 10'' Secure Temp (versus 7" for Tradition). Learned a lot reading these responses and following the links etc; I certainly don't mind spending for quality but it's nice to know what I'm getting for the $$.

One other bit of differentiation, if you go to the Security Chimney site with ZC fireplace info:
http://www.securitychimneys.com/pages/fireplace/cat_high.asp?country=us
or to Lennox site for their woodburning xero clearance fireplace clones of the BIS line:
(broken link removed)

Notice the "high efficiency" tab units (Bis Ultima, Panorama, Ultra, Tradition, Tradition-CE) are all "EPA approved". This means they are efficient at providing heat and also have low levels of emissions when burning, ie less pollution goes into the air with the wood smoke.

The "mid-efficiency" tab includes the LeLaval unit. It is not EPA approved (ie, more pollution), and it is less efficient at producing heat into the house (I think because of large opening area and door is designed not gasket sealed like hi-efficient units--but I could be wrong about that.) I believe these and the low-efficient units may also be not as good as the hi-efficient ones at keeping out cold-air infiltration into the house when not burning.

You have to decide about the EPA approved part and the particulate emissions if that matters to you---perhaps also check your local burning restrictions in this regard, if any. Some places require EPA approved units only. Your local dealers should be able to inform on that matter.

 

[builderbob]

You have to decide about the EPA approved part and the particulate emissions if that matters to you---perhaps also check your local burning restrictions in this regard, if any. Some places require EPA approved units only. Your local dealers should be able to inform on that matter.

Sorry, forgot you are in Canada not US. Last I heard EPA was not extending its authority into Canada. Don't know if Canada or the provinces have some similar regulating authority.

But if particulate emissions are a *personal* concern to you, then you would want to consider EPA approved anyway.

 

[fishboat]

BTB...Talked to the dealer(didn't argue the AC vs solid packed point at all...I wish he'd given me the choice up front) & I now have solid chimney pipe for my install....bumps the price up about $500-$700.

Thanks to everyone that the AC approach wasn't a good path.

 

[builderbob]

BTB...Talked to the dealer(didn't argue the AC vs solid packed point at all...I wish he'd given me the choice up front) & I now have solid chimney pipe for my install....bumps the price up about $500-$700.

The $500 to $700 differential is really small price to pay for some extra insurance at avoiding possible problems. Just think what it would cost to try to change out the chimney afterwards if you experienced problems. Just in general, the solid pack should tend to give you better draft, hotter burning more efficient fires too, and maybe less cold air infiltration when not burning, so even just aggravation avoided may be worth it.

I have seen the advert pictures of the Bis Tradition-CE and it is a beautiful fireplace. Any chance you can post picture fo your install when you get it all done?

 

[JimWalshin845]

Nice looking 'shack'. When is the house warming party?

 

[fishboat]

The $500 to $700 differential is really small price to pay for some extra insurance at avoiding possible problems. Just think what it would cost to try to change out the chimney afterwards if you experienced problems. Just in general, the solid pack should tend to give you better draft, hotter burning more efficient fires too, and maybe less cold air infiltration when not burning, so even just aggravation avoided may be worth it.
I have seen the advert pictures of the Bis Tradition-CE and it is a beautiful fireplace. Any chance you can post picture fo your install when you get it all done?

BTB,

The extra cost was secondary in importance..the only reason I was going with the AC pipe was I didn't know any better // didn't take the time to consider how the AC cooling worked or its impact. Now if you have any questions on chemistry or statistics...I might be your man. Actually if I would have thought about it for a minute the AC pipe is basically a distillation column..not completely unlike distillation columns that separate a material like oil into gas, diesel, or kerosene. To add insult to injury...I have a patent in a process that prevents organic vapor condensation in a jacketed pipe (much like a solid pack chimney pipe delaying condensation of creosote). Some day I'll slow down and smell he wood smoke.

The fireplace is going into a smallish great room with a vaulted ceiling(Cape Cod with a balcony over the living room). It'll be finished with dry stacked-stone slate from floor to ceiling & with a slate hearth. I'll be takning plenty of before, during & after pics..I'll post them when I get done..it'll take me a while no doubt.

Thanks again for preventing what likely would have been a big mistake.