Buying a Harman P61... I think Help (long)

[mgarrett88]

First of all I want to say thanks to everyone on here. Lots of good information and posts.
Second I apologize because this may be a long post but feel that I need to put the information out there to get accurate feedback.

So I will dive right in.
My wife and I are finishing a basement in a farm house. It is not a "Michigan" basement. ceilings are aprox 7' and are open to the joist and floor above to the rest of the house. Basement is all poured concrete. We are going to Epoxy the floor, but a sub wall in on the walls, with some foam board insulation and then cover with knotty pine.
The plan is to put a stove in the basement that is going to be free standing and centrally located as the chimney runs through the center of the house.
The main floor of the house as all new insulation (cellulose) and we are going to put spray foam on the outside wall joist in the basement and see what we can do about the attic as it hasn't had attention in a while and second floor insulation. Basement and first floor total aprox 884 SQ FT each. I want to heat the basement and it would be a bonus to get heat to at least the first floor of the house. The dealer I went to advised not to cut holes in the floor if not needed or do any extra duct work for the stove until I know how it starts to heat with radiant heat through the floors and natural movement of air. Makes sense however we are prepared if needed to cut some vents in the floor. He made it seem like I could heat my entire house with the P61. They (dealer) also recommended installing 4" liner in my chimney which I also think is a good idea.
So to my issue. I dont think my wife and I know how we are going to use the basement. Meaning I dont know if we are going to be down there every day using it as a second living room, or just using it on the weekends, or who knows. We currently heat our house with propane. We have no issues affording it but each and every year it seems like the price continues to go up. So the original thought would be to install the P61 to be able to heat the basement and the main floor of the house if possible. If I knew could heat these 2 floors for sure with just the P61 would have a much easier time with the purchase.Reading on here though has made me a bit apprehensive on pellet stoves. Grew up with wood stove so did my wife. We have no knowledge on pellet stoves. Sounds like Harman is a good brand but these pellet stoves have a lot of moving parts, needs a lot of attention (cleaning and so on) and I read a lot about replacing boards, and augers, and so on. not afraid of the cleaning at all, just the maintenance and wear down of parts. Maybe I have read too many troubleshooting and issue threads on the page makes me a tad nervous. We also live in the country so we do have power outages. We have a generator but not an automatic stand by. I have to come home and plug it in. Dealer made it sound like with he natural draft of the chimney I wouldn't have to worry about smoke issues. Just let the burn pot run out. If we were in a power outage we would not rely on the pellet stove to heat the house.
Also not knowing what performance we are going to get out of the Harman to be able to take some of the heating bill off it is quite the investment to think about. If we just want to use the basement on the weekends, or for social gatherings, or here and there, I think I could get by with a wood stove. I grew up and so did my wife with a wood stove. However we dont have "access" to "free wood". We would need to get it and cut our selves weather we buy a truck load of logs, or go to friends woods to cut down. With all of my hobbies and activities my wife does not think me cutting and splitting wood all the time is in the works unless I give something up. Hence the reason we were thinking pellets. We can purchase pellets as needed, pallets at a time. However I dont want to spend a fortune on pellets and propane, and it also seems like a large investment on a pellet stove if we are just going to heat the basement on weekends or when we have a social gathering.
Word vomit I know...
So as a newbie to pellet burning over wood, what do you guys think? If I can afford to get pellet stove should I get it, learn to use it, and use it as much as I can?
See if it takes away some of my heating bills? And if i dont use it that much oh well just use as needed?
Really I think my wife and I need to decide how we are going to use the basement so we can make a better decision. Wood stoves and pellet stoves each have their advantages and disadvantages. I have been fighting what I am wanting to get for weeks now. Hoping you guys can help me out with a decision or ask questions or point things out that I may not be thinking of.

 

[johneh]

First Welcome to the forum there is a wealth of information here.
A pellet stove is just that a space heater it is not made to heat
a whole house. Yes, there are people here with open concept homes
that do quit well heating there homes.
Harman stoves are one of the top stoves out there Enviro is another
You only see the worst of pellet stoves on this forum. Why because
people are looking for help when there is a problem. The stove I use
is an Enviro it is 19 years old and the only part I have ever replaced is
the combustion fan. Matenants about 30 minutes start to finish once a week
and a 4to6 hour tear down and clean once a year .. As to whether p61
will do what you want it too I have no idea. I just know that a pellet stove
is a lot less work than a wood stove. I know because the main part of my
home is heated with wood which I cut, buck, split and stack.
I also use a backup generator to keep my stove going when the power is out.

 

[missing link]

Hey , I have an older P-61 now heats my 1500 sf ranch very comfy 70 deg no cellar pretty much set on stove temp on 3 and feed rate 2.
The stove can crank right up and throw some serious heat . This stove has some radiant heat also
This is the first year burning pellets , I heated with wood for 34 yrs. and to tell ya the truth I don't miss all the work that goes with wood heat.
still a bag a day and waiting for a massive snow storm here in So. coast Ma,
ML
ps: P-61 built like a tank runs like a caddilac

 

[tazz]

We have a 1900 sq/ft cape, that is the first floor and a finished upstairs that is half dormered. the basement is not included in the square footage listed and it is 3/4 finished. I put a P61 in the basement this past spring and I'll tell ya wow , it heats the whole house without a problem, sometimes I think it's too much stove. I have it set to stove temp between 1-2 with the fan on medium low and it's keeping the main floor at 72, the upstairs is in the mid 60's. I am using several, like 5 fans to move the air where I want it and I haven't cut any holes in my floors. All the heat is from radiant and up from the basement door. I live in MA so this year we really haven't had a really cold spell yet other than one that I can think of and I had to turn the stove up to 3 in stove temp. I would say you won't have any problems heating your home with a P61 as long as you can setup the airflow correctly to move heat around your house.

 

[tazz]

Also being that you want to put this in the basement I would definitely run a cold air intake. when I installed ours I didn't and it was sucking cold air in from everywhere in the basement, as soon as I installed the OAK what a difference.

 

[mikkeeh]

I installed a p43 in 2011, when propane prices were high. I have a 1400 sqft ranch built in 2006. Pretty well sealed and insulated. I can easily keep the living room/area at 72, while bedrooms will be 66 or so in the coldest weather. In cold weather I’ll go through about 2 bags in 24 hrs. In 2011 propane prices were high, and pellets were reasonable. Since then....in my area, propane in down over $1/gal, and pellet prices are up $70 ton.
P61 is a monster and will use more. Don’t know what propane prices are by you....but don’t plan on a reallyquick payback.
Also take a look at what pellets are available in your area. 5 yrs ago pellets were plentiful. Last year they were really tough to find, and at a premium. Still.....you get that nice warm heat like from a wood stove, without all the hassle. You can easily store a ton of pellets in your basement without having to worry about bugs. Hope this helps.

 

[Dataman]

If your buying new the payback will be longer than you live. I put in Harmon XXV 2yr ago. I spent about 6k. If it was me I would put in small propane stove if your in 60's. If your lots younger a wood stove. If you go pellet stove and you want it to function when power is out buy inverter/batteries (I run AIMS 1250 w 2/100ah batteries for 12 hours, after that Generator). To cut down the Wood workload consider Energy Logs or Bricks. They also can be bought in 1 ton on pallet. I use 5 tons of Pellets at 200 per ton with 45 for delivery. Wife brings them up to the house with tractor or I use wheel barrel with 4 bags. Little worried this year, I have 3/4 ton on porch, and Winter is fast going away. The joy of hauling them back. Strange Winter.

On Maintenance. I do daily of the burn pot and glass. Shut it down 45 min and wipe the glass with damp paper towel. Scrape the pot with scraper. 5 Min and done or less. At 1 Ton burned I shut it down for hour or so and follow the directions on video from Harmon (Comb Blower, Fines Box, Burn Pot). I heat our whole house with the stove by the use of couple of box fans to move the air.

 

[tazz]

First of all I want to say thanks to everyone on here. Lots of good information and posts.
Second I apologize because this may be a long post but feel that I need to put the information out there to get accurate feedback.

So I will dive right in.
My wife and I are finishing a basement in a farm house. It is not a "Michigan" basement. ceilings are aprox 7' and are open to the joist and floor above to the rest of the house. Basement is all poured concrete. We are going to Epoxy the floor, but a sub wall in on the walls, with some foam board insulation and then cover with knotty pine.
The plan is to put a stove in the basement that is going to be free standing and centrally located as the chimney runs through the center of the house.
The main floor of the house as all new insulation (cellulose) and we are going to put spray foam on the outside wall joist in the basement and see what we can do about the attic as it hasn't had attention in a while and second floor insulation. Basement and first floor total aprox 884 SQ FT each. I want to heat the basement and it would be a bonus to get heat to at least the first floor of the house. The dealer I went to advised not to cut holes in the floor if not needed or do any extra duct work for the stove until I know how it starts to heat with radiant heat through the floors and natural movement of air. Makes sense however we are prepared if needed to cut some vents in the floor. He made it seem like I could heat my entire house with the P61. They (dealer) also recommended installing 4" liner in my chimney which I also think is a good idea.
So to my issue. I dont think my wife and I know how we are going to use the basement. Meaning I dont know if we are going to be down there every day using it as a second living room, or just using it on the weekends, or who knows. We currently heat our house with propane. We have no issues affording it but each and every year it seems like the price continues to go up. So the original thought would be to install the P61 to be able to heat the basement and the main floor of the house if possible. If I knew could heat these 2 floors for sure with just the P61 would have a much easier time with the purchase.Reading on here though has made me a bit apprehensive on pellet stoves. Grew up with wood stove so did my wife. We have no knowledge on pellet stoves. Sounds like Harman is a good brand but these pellet stoves have a lot of moving parts, needs a lot of attention (cleaning and so on) and I read a lot about replacing boards, and augers, and so on. not afraid of the cleaning at all, just the maintenance and wear down of parts. Maybe I have read too many troubleshooting and issue threads on the page makes me a tad nervous. We also live in the country so we do have power outages. We have a generator but not an automatic stand by. I have to come home and plug it in. Dealer made it sound like with he natural draft of the chimney I wouldn't have to worry about smoke issues. Just let the burn pot run out. If we were in a power outage we would not rely on the pellet stove to heat the house.
Also not knowing what performance we are going to get out of the Harman to be able to take some of the heating bill off it is quite the investment to think about. If we just want to use the basement on the weekends, or for social gatherings, or here and there, I think I could get by with a wood stove. I grew up and so did my wife with a wood stove. However we dont have "access" to "free wood". We would need to get it and cut our selves weather we buy a truck load of logs, or go to friends woods to cut down. With all of my hobbies and activities my wife does not think me cutting and splitting wood all the time is in the works unless I give something up. Hence the reason we were thinking pellets. We can purchase pellets as needed, pallets at a time. However I dont want to spend a fortune on pellets and propane, and it also seems like a large investment on a pellet stove if we are just going to heat the basement on weekends or when we have a social gathering.
Word vomit I know...
So as a newbie to pellet burning over wood, what do you guys think? If I can afford to get pellet stove should I get it, learn to use it, and use it as much as I can?
See if it takes away some of my heating bills? And if i dont use it that much oh well just use as needed?
Really I think my wife and I need to decide how we are going to use the basement so we can make a better decision. Wood stoves and pellet stoves each have their advantages and disadvantages. I have been fighting what I am wanting to get for weeks now. Hoping you guys can help me out with a decision or ask questions or point things out that I may not be thinking of.

A few details are missing and better for the people here to not guess such as and the way I read it that we know you have propane heat but you didn't say what kind. I'm taking it you don't have forced air because you mentioned cutting in ducts in your floors. You also said that you were finishing your basement so I take it that there is no heat there now. What would it cost to run another circuit from your existing heating system for the basement. I know that in my situation to add another circuit to my existing boiler for half the basement would have maxed it out and cost more than what I could get a good used stove for. just some things to consider.

 

[Marc S.]

We run a Harman Absolute 43 and absolutely love it as does the dog. The stove is the only way we heat our house; 1100 sq. I think everyone here will preach maintenance. Keep the stove clean and it will take care of you. Make sure an clean your fines pot as well as your outside vent.

 

[Nitro-Fish]

The P61 would suit you fine, low maintenance; big heat! Don't be afraid of used, I just purchased a Dressed up P68 with piping, a through the wall kit (for both the OAK & Flue which is in spare stock since it's not currently needed), and a Hearth board for a steal. I just finished installing it in my daughters 1200 sq ft rambler, its way more than she needs, but the price was right & with the auto ignite & temperature controls, it doesn't run much at all.





I have a P61 on one side of my basement and an Englander PDVC 25 diagonally on the other side (5000 sq ft house), the P61 gets most of the duty, the Englander is just supplemental for the coldest of nights. I'll tell you, it pumps out the heat and as can be expected the P61 will eat some pellets when its in the teens, but that's to be expected.

 

[mgarrett88]

Also being that you want to put this in the basement I would definitely run a cold air intake. when I installed ours I didn't and it was sucking cold air in from everywhere in the basement, as soon as I installed the OAK what a difference.

Dealership didnt mention anything about a OAK. I plan to have the stove in the center of the room not against the wall. How would that work to pull in cold air? would a separate pipe have to go up the chimney?

Main concern will be how to move the air. It sounds like the P61 will kick some heat out but the way the air would move in my house might be the issue. The way the house is set you there is a door going to the garage into a back entryway. you can go straight down stairs, or up to the kitchen area. There is a door closed off to the kitchen. I think if i direct air up the stairwell, i would loose a lot of heat going out to the garage. There is also little to NO room to put a fan at the top of the stairs to then direct the air back up towards the kitchen and main floor of the house. That is why i thought if heat does not travel that well through the floors i would but some hole and vent it through strait up.

 

[mgarrett88]

A few details are missing and better for the people here to not guess such as and the way I read it that we know you have propane heat but you didn't say what kind. I'm taking it you don't have forced air because you mentioned cutting in ducts in your floors. You also said that you were finishing your basement so I take it that there is no heat there now. What would it cost to run another circuit from your existing heating system for the basement. I know that in my situation to add another circuit to my existing boiler for half the basement would have maxed it out and cost more than what I could get a good used stove for. just some things to consider.

We have propane with baseboard (hot water) heat. The basement currently does not have any heat down there. I have not priced out what it would cost to add something to heat the basement with propane. Weather it be a wall mount furnace space heater, or a set of base board heat we do not know. This year we purchased propane at $1.29. I think the new pellet stove and install would run more than adding something propane but i guess it is something i can look into.

 

[tazz]

As far as moving air around the house, what you want to do is move cold air towards the stove at floor level. So instead of moving warm air up the stairs it's much easier to move cold air down the stairs. I use several of these fans in my house all pushing air towards the heat source down the stairs.
Amazon product ASIN B006O6FA22

 

[Ssyko]

Chech with your local code enforcement personnel about adding vents through the floor. Here in NY its against fire code

 

[mikkeeh]

Not really sure what your goal is.......but if you can get propane @1.29.......it’s cheaper heat than pellets at 250/ton. At those prices per million btu,s...... propane in about $1600, and pellets about $2000. Figure in purchase and install if new......probably $6k or so......
Not very cost efficient.
But......if your looking for the “warm” heat and ambience of a fire....without messing with firewood....then it’s all good.

 

[Marc S.]

As far as moving air around the house, what you want to do is move cold air towards the stove at floor level. So instead of moving warm air up the stairs it's much easier to move cold air down the stairs. I use several of these fans in my house all pushing air towards the heat source down the stairs.
Amazon product ASIN B006O6FA22

Those are cool little fans!

 

[tazz]

those pivoting fans do a great job of sending the air right down at step level leaving tons of space for the warm air that's coming up.

 

[mgarrett88]

Not really sure what your goal is.......but if you can get propane @1.29.......it’s cheaper heat than pellets at 250/ton. At those prices per million btu,s...... propane in about $1600, and pellets about $2000. Figure in purchase and install if new......probably $6k or so......
Not very cost efficient.
But......if your looking for the “warm” heat and ambience of a fire....without messing with firewood....then it’s all good.

Dont know how long we will be able to get propane at that price. Each year it continues to go up. I know this year they wanted even more until I raised holy hell about it.

Some of the goal is to have the ambience of a fire that part is for sure. I dont think I intend to ever get out or off of using Propane.
The basement has not heat so if we plan to use it I would need a heat source down there. I also plan to get a quote on what it would cost to install some registers down stairs

If we decide not to do the big investment of a pellet stove we may go the route of a wood stove (cost less) and use when we want. We might not burn it all the time but we would have to have some type of propane heat in the basement.