BYD School Bus

[peakbagger]

A state sustainable energy group has been touring an electric school bus around the area recently. I got an invite to go take a look at it. It is made in California by a division of BYD which is huge player in the Chinese EV market. They specialize in Lipo (lithium phosphate batteries) not the higher power density but more hazard prone and strategic metal dependent Lmnc Batteries that Tesla had been using (although Tesla are starting to use Lipo batteries in the Mega Packs).

The bus looks somewhat like a standard bus city bus, its got hub drive wheels (the motor is in the wheel hub) so the batteries are mounted down low along the sides like a standard intercity bus and no axles. The claims is 180 mile range but the driver claimed that was conservative and with regenerative braking he would routinely see more. They have a couple of options for charging, they can customize to whatever is available. As the nearest DC charge station was about 50 miles away and they are touring rural areas, they are touring with a large Cat diesel generator pulled by large Chevy pickup to charge the bus if they need to.

The batteries are guaranteed for 12 years with potentially 20 years of life, so the plan is to switch them to stationary service at the end of the bus life. In my area buses rarely last that long due to road salt. I didnt get a price but its obvious that the only way they are affordable is with upfront subsidies. The new IRA bill has incentives for busses and to date 3 towns in NH have been granted incentives. The interior is no different than a regular bus except its possibly a bit lower although its variable height suspension which they had set quite low to ease entry and exit. My guess is once the novelty wears off, its just a quiet bus that is not spewing soot.

 

[SpaceBus]

I would bet they are cheaper to operate for schools and such. For rural areas perhaps smaller medium duty buses will work better. I know that's what is used most around here for public transportation that isn't related to public schools.

 

[peakbagger]

They make multiple sizes of buses. They just happened to have jumbo version with them.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I could see them working for at least part of the average school system’s routes. That start and stop action has to be tough on those batteries.

I could be convinced that having children riding on a vehicle that isn’t belching out diesel fumes is a real good idea.

 

[peakbagger]

Remember they have regenerative breaking, stop and go is a good fit for EVs.

 

[stoveliker]

Stop and go is bad for ice vehicles. (See the maintenance schedule of mail delivery trucks...)

 

[begreen]

My guess is once the novelty wears off, its just a quiet bus that is not spewing soot.

That would be a most welcome change.

 

[woodgeek]

Remember they have regenerative breaking, stop and go is a good fit for EVs.

Regneration is only about 50-60% efficient.

 

[Mt Bob]

"As the nearest DC charge station was about 50 miles away and they are touring rural areas, they are touring with a large Cat diesel generator pulled by large Chevy pickup to charge the bus if they need to."
🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Yep, better keep the coal plants running, for at least the next 30-50 years.
There are already at least 2 companies that make onboard diesel generator trucks, for roadside service, to rescue such vehicles, cars and trucks. Personally, I m against all the pollution created by the mining, manufacturing and shipping of the parts to make these, and the units themselves. Worse than the wind generator market.
But it is good to see advancements are being made in their battery recycling.

 

[ABMax24]

We've had a couple BYD electric buses in the city since 2019. The city even covered the bus maintenance shop roof in solar panels to offset the electricity use. I don't have exact numbers, but I think they only run about 8 months a year, the winters are too cold to get any useful range in the winter while keeping the interior warm.

The city probably should have just bought Diesel buses.

 

[peakbagger]

Touring a school bus around the country to areas without charging infrastructure is atypical for a regular school bus. Generally they have a pretty fixed route from a central location, around a route and then back to the garage. They are also driven by bus drivers who can be trained to plug them in at the end of the day and unplug them at night and monitor charge. Therefore I expect the Cat Diesel is not required. My guess is for typical school system electric operation will probably cover 95% of the usage.

With respect to heat, they could install a hydrogen tank and use it for auxiliary heat with a hydrogen generation system located at the local bus garage. There is already a firm in Australia offering home hydrogen generation and storage systems. I did not ask what they were using for this bus.

The new technology is coming out so quickly its hard to keep up. I was involved with helping two facilities get grants for large storage battery systems about 5 years ago. They won the grants but by the time we went to do the detailed design of the overall projects a year later, the company that made and sold the technology, zinc based flow batteries, had already gone out business. I have no doubt Lithium based chemistries only have limited life and will be replaced with new chemistries.

 

[semipro]

I've driven a Gillig battery-electric transit bus and the acceleration was impressive.
I've heard that buses require a lot of downtime for service and agencies buy "spare" buses in order to maintain service levels.
These electric buses will likely require less maintenance and thus less downtime - decreasing both capital and ongoing costs. For now though, the electric buses do cost more.
The decreased noise, brake dust emissions, and lack of tailpipe emissions are important too in the settings these vehicles typically operate in with lots of pedestrians or school kids nearby.

 

[semipro]

Personally, I m against all the pollution created by the mining, manufacturing and shipping of the parts to make these, and the units themselves. Worse than the wind generator market.

EVs seem to fare much better than conventional ICE vehicles regarding life cycle emissions, at least as far as GHG emissions.
From: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evs-far-cleaner-gas-powered-110000937.html

 

[EbS-P]

Fuel costs for school districts a substantial part of the budget. The use case makes perfect sense. Run 2-3 park 5 hours then run 2-3 hours. To me the charging infrastructure is the more complicated than the choice to go with electric busses.

We’re probably not talking DC fast charging. 3-phase chargers could be utilized. 400 volt ac charging??
I’m just pulling a number out of hat but .5-1 mile per kWh. And 60-100 miles per day. So at 100kwhs a day charges over 10 hours. So you could charge them at 240v at 48 Amps. That would make for cheaper charging units but not sure about the total system.

10 busses 500 amps. Reasonable but our district has a lot more then.

 

[SpaceBus]

EVs seem to fare much better than conventional ICE vehicles regarding life cycle emissions, at least as far as GHG emissions.
From: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evs-far-cleaner-gas-powered-110000937.html

Not to mention all the strategic resources used to make ICE vehicles. It's not like legacy systems magically don't rely on exploiting resources and people in other countries.

For many years I drank the kool-aid and was anti EV. Now I welcome our electric transportation overlords

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Im taking a meh view of them. They won’t work for me, but might work fine for others.

I think they have to be looked at in a case by case basis.

If someone ones one, I encourage them to buy one.

 

[Mt Bob]

The "emissions" they compare are/is only CO2, which is minor. Then it doe s bring up the problems from increased mining, even states-"That’s why it will be important to develop and deploy mining and processing innovations that reduce mining waste and toxicity".
I am willing to bet it still holds true that, to incorporate all aspects of building a car, a EV will produce more pollution, before it is even delivered to a dealer, than the same car body with a ICE.
Notice I said pollution, not just CO2. This also applies to the increased mining, manufacturing, transportation and labor/upgrading power transmission, and, more importantly, power generation. Have to look at the whole picture. I'm not "against" EV's, am glad to see improvements, but is stupid to rush into a full conversion, is stupid to do any of this that requires government help,our taxes, to survive. Been a master ASE tech most of my life, so well versed in the industry, used to get all the trade magazines the public doesn't see, attended the factory training classes. More emphasis should have been, and should be, on hybrids. The first generation of mass produced hybrid, the Prius, was a great step.
Plus, 1/2 the country,maybe more?, is cold climate, and EV's are not practical at all, unless you live within a city.

 

[EbS-P]

The "emissions" they compare are/is only CO2, which is minor. Then it doe s bring up the problems from increased mining, even states-"That’s why it will be important to develop and deploy mining and processing innovations that reduce mining waste and toxicity".
I am willing to bet it still holds true that, to incorporate all aspects of building a car, a EV will produce more pollution, before it is even delivered to a dealer, than the same car body with a ICE.
Notice I said pollution, not just CO2. This also applies to the increased mining, manufacturing, transportation and labor/upgrading power transmission, and, more importantly, power generation. Have to look at the whole picture. I'm not "against" EV's, am glad to see improvements, but is stupid to rush into a full conversion, is stupid to do any of this that requires government help,our taxes, to survive. Been a master ASE tech most of my life, so well versed in the industry, used to get all the trade magazines the public doesn't see, attended the factory training classes. More emphasis should have been, and should be, on hybrids. The first generation of mass produced hybrid, the Prius, was a great step.
Plus, 1/2 the country,maybe more?, is cold climate, and EV's are not practical at all, unless you live within a city.

Total life cycle emissions of battery vehicles is less than ICE. It’s a fact. https://about.bnef.com/blog/the-lifecycle-emissions-of-electric-vehicles/

the routes and usage hours per day for schools busses are different than city or regional busses. I think the “we live somewhere too cold” argument is weak. It’s not cold enough for long enough. Yes you must be thoughtful and careful. I grew up in a town where this bus tragedy was/is still on everyone’s mind nearly a century later.

Pleasant Hill bus tragedy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If Tesla can drive a loaded semi 500 miles the keeping a bus warm for a 2 maybe 3 hour run is possible. Even in cold climates. We have the technology. Incentives are in place. Supply chains are being built. Electric busses will in community near you soon.

 

[SpaceBus]

The "emissions" they compare are/is only CO2, which is minor. Then it doe s bring up the problems from increased mining, even states-"That’s why it will be important to develop and deploy mining and processing innovations that reduce mining waste and toxicity".
I am willing to bet it still holds true that, to incorporate all aspects of building a car, a EV will produce more pollution, before it is even delivered to a dealer, than the same car body with a ICE.
Notice I said pollution, not just CO2. This also applies to the increased mining, manufacturing, transportation and labor/upgrading power transmission, and, more importantly, power generation. Have to look at the whole picture. I'm not "against" EV's, am glad to see improvements, but is stupid to rush into a full conversion, is stupid to do any of this that requires government help,our taxes, to survive. Been a master ASE tech most of my life, so well versed in the industry, used to get all the trade magazines the public doesn't see, attended the factory training classes. More emphasis should have been, and should be, on hybrids. The first generation of mass produced hybrid, the Prius, was a great step.
Plus, 1/2 the country,maybe more?, is cold climate, and EV's are not practical at all, unless you live within a city.

What about the strategic resources used to make ICE cars? What about their lifetime pollution/emissions numbers? Most people do not live in cold climates despite about half half of the land area falling into those cold climates. Even if coal was the only power source for EVs you still come out ahead compared to ICE.

Many of your arguments were in place before ICE displaced early EVs and livestock based transportation. After all, you don't have to mine for horses, oxen, or mules.

 

[Mt Bob]

"strategic resources" were figured in to the total pollution figures, on the comparison.
"Even if coal was the only power source for EVs you still come out ahead compared to ICE."
Are you sure? Because, first, we don't have the power generation capability, nor the transportation infrastructure for power, Both which create lots of pollution.
Take it slowly, we are not there yet. Which brings me back to my agreement with others, hybrids should be pushed more.
Look at the huge EV bus fleet failures in cities. You don't see it much in MSM, because it does not fit the narrative.

 

[SpaceBus]

"strategic resources" were figured in to the total pollution figures, on the comparison.
"Even if coal was the only power source for EVs you still come out ahead compared to ICE."
Are you sure? Because, first, we don't have the power generation capability, nor the transportation infrastructure for power, Both which create lots of pollution.
Take it slowly, we are not there yet. Which brings me back to my agreement with others, hybrids should be pushed more.
Look at the huge EV bus fleet failures in cities. You don't see it much in MSM, because it does not fit the narrative.

Yes, I'm sure. EVs are just across the board more efficient and cleaner than ICE vehicles, even with a dirty grid. The grid can handle all of the EVs. I can't think of a single energy provider that is not improving infrastructure. Clearly this is the future, the free market has spoken, it's not like the federal government is imposing any regulations forcing EVs. Think about it this way, even with the massive subsidies for fossil fuels, EVs are STILL coming out ahead. Think about all the marketing research Ford and GM have invested into figuring out the right direction for R&D, and it's EVs across the board. Only Toyota is dragging their feet, but even still they will come around to EVs.


Also, why do you bring up coal so much? It's being phased out in most developed nations, and will continue to have a shrinking market. New natural gas plants are still being built, so your desired energy diversity is already here. Adding more renewable energy is not going to hurt anything. New renewable energy installations are not displacing fossil fuels, but being used with them, for now at least.

 

[Mt Bob]

"The US’s transition to electric vehicles could require three times as much lithium as is currently produced for the entire global market, causing needless water shortages, Indigenous land grabs, and ecosystem destruction inside and outside its borders, new research finds.
The global demand for lithium, also known as white gold, is predicted to rise over 40 times by 2040, driven predominantly by the shift to electric vehicles. Grassroots protests and lawsuits against lithium mining are on the rise from the US and Chile to Serbia and Tibet amid rising concern about the socio-environmental impacts and increasingly tense geopolitics around supply."
How to use less lithium--
"The largest reduction will come from changing the way we get around towns and cities – fewer cars, more walking, cycling and public transit made possible by denser cities – followed by downsizing vehicles and recycling batteries."

 

[begreen]

"The US’s transition to electric vehicles could require three times as much lithium as is currently produced for the entire global market, causing needless water shortages, Indigenous land grabs, and ecosystem destruction inside and outside its borders, new research finds.
The global demand for lithium, also known as white gold, is predicted to rise over 40 times by 2040, driven predominantly by the shift to electric vehicles. Grassroots protests and lawsuits against lithium mining are on the rise from the US and Chile to Serbia and Tibet amid rising concern about the socio-environmental impacts and increasingly tense geopolitics around supply."

Lithium is fairly common. As discussed in another thread, the US has been coming up with alternative sources by simply adopting existing locations at the Great Salt Lake and the Salton Sea with another capture step.

Additionally, battery tech is still developing. There is the testing of a sodium-sulfur battery that may eliminate lithium altogether.

How to use less lithium--
"The largest reduction will come from changing the way we get around towns and cities – fewer cars, more walking, cycling and public transit made possible by denser cities – followed by downsizing vehicles and recycling batteries."

I like this part. We could all get more used to consuming less. Also, repurposing old car batteries will take on its own life along with recycling when they are no longer needed.

 

[SpaceBus]

"The US’s transition to electric vehicles could require three times as much lithium as is currently produced for the entire global market, causing needless water shortages, Indigenous land grabs, and ecosystem destruction inside and outside its borders, new research finds.
The global demand for lithium, also known as white gold, is predicted to rise over 40 times by 2040, driven predominantly by the shift to electric vehicles. Grassroots protests and lawsuits against lithium mining are on the rise from the US and Chile to Serbia and Tibet amid rising concern about the socio-environmental impacts and increasingly tense geopolitics around supply."
How to use less lithium--
"The largest reduction will come from changing the way we get around towns and cities – fewer cars, more walking, cycling and public transit made possible by denser cities – followed by downsizing vehicles and recycling batteries."

Of course lithium demand is increasing, there isn't much demand without grid storage and EVs. This will lead to less fossil fuel extraction and overall less mineral extraction. A lot of this hand wringing over mining and minerals is a red herring. EVs will lead to less emissions from all sources related to extraction and processing of minerals for automotive production. Recycling will come on line for lithium batteries among other renewable tech as they gain more market proliferation. As Begreen also mentioned, things are improving on the lithium mining and use situation as battery tech matures. This is not nearly as bad as the infancy of oil and ICE vehicle production. Just look at all of the environmental carnage from oil spills, TEL, etc.

 

[Mt Bob]

I'm not against EV's, but my point is a mad rush to "get it done" is crazy.
No, there are no "great" improvements in cleaner mining for lithium,yet. Plus, do you think other countries will adopt them? Nope. So, in our mad rush to electrify, we will cause much more pollution and destruction around the world. Currently, Canada already has less stringent regulations on lithium mining than the USA.
No, there is not "plenty of energy,power production". Especially "greener" or cleaner production. The reports how-- lets just take Cali.-- that just to meet their stringent 2025 regulations, they will have to expect more shortages, and power outages. Just think, they are making all small engines banned. Chain saws, lawn mowers, riding mowers, smaller tractors. If they wan to meet their 2050 goal of no ICE's, or even their 2035 goals, they should have been building Nuke plants 10 years ago. Plus, they have blocked smaller, "on-site" NG generation sites,(the most logical thing) for many years. Our state is an electricity over producer, for many years, BUT, because of circumstances, many have moved here. We sell our excess, but, there shall be much less to sell. I see problems in Cali's immediate future. Along with shutting down power generation, removing dams, on the west coast states. But, that is just a small part of the problem. On a side note, yes, in our state, as power transmission lines and facilities need repairs, they have been/being upgraded,expanded and hardened against EMP.
I see ICE's being needed for, at least, the next 100 years.
Yes, a certain group would love to densely pack everyone within cities, restricting their lives even more. But that is backfiring already, because of the increases crime they promote, and raising people and business taxes and regulations, along with an open border, increasing crime all over, but mostly in cities.
"What if's, could,can.may" are pretty much useless sayings at this point, but are well used by people rushing things.