Cat or no Cat??

[Chief Ryan]

I am new to all of this. I am in the process of picking a wood stove. Ive read alot about them (steel,cast,soapstone cat or no cat) and still can't decide what's right for me.

I'll be heatiing a ranch style home that is about 1200 Sq Ft. with an open floor plan, bedrooms at opposite side of stove. It will be placed on the hearth in front of a fireplace.

I like the Jotul Oslo, VC Encore and just recently came accross the Woodstock Fireview or Keystone. All the reviews about the Jotul and the VC were for the most part good but mixed. All the reviews about the Woodstock brand were all great exceeding there expectations.

I live on Long Island NY. The winters of late have not been that cold but we do get some cold ones. I would like to make it my primary heat source.

I've read and been told by many that Catalytic technology is not in favor anymore because they have to be replaced and sometimes very prematurely. But than all of the Woodstock stoves have cats and everybody loves them.

Please Help.

 

[swestall]

Woodstock stoves are great, soapstone with CAT. Hearthstone stoves are great, soapstone without CAT.
Stoves that have secondary burn tubes or baffles do a fine job of burning up the smoke/gas.
The VC and a number of other stoves that are downdraft and use a refractory assembly to burn the smoke/gas are sometimes very tempermental; esp if you don't have a chimney that drafts in a way that the stove was designed for.

I'd have no problem with Woodstock. Now they are on sale and you can give it back (no questions) if it doesn't work out for you.

Soapstone does take a bit longer to warm up than steel or cast iron. Most folks who have the stone wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[dj2cohen]

I am a firm believer in cat stoves. I have a cat and a non cat stove in the house. I get a lot more heat out of the cat than the non cat for the same amount of wood.

I have to replace my cat every five to seven years at about $100. The only cat failure I had was my fault due to an accidental overfire.

Still, cat all the way.

 

[Highbeam]

I would not buy a VC product given their current state of business. Their large cat stoves were quite good though.

The cat woodstock stoves are very nice with smallish fireboxes and large clearances to combustibles. I would love to own their largest model if I had the room.

The non-cat soapstone is what I own (medium sized heritage) and I find it very good at doing what I ask of it which is to heat my 1700 SF old house 24/7 in a moderate western washington climate. The stove just barely holds enough softwood to keep me from having to restart the fire in the morning, I just stir the coals.

The cast iron stoves need to be rebuilt every so often and that is not desirable to me. Some stoves exist from quadrafire and PE that use a welded steel firebox to which the cast iron plates are attached which gives you the nice cast iron on the outside but the structurally superior and leak free steel box on the inside.

I have only owned the non-cat stoves but have no reservations about trying a cat model if the opportunity came.

You have 1200 SF and I assume a single living room which probably also has the TV. You will need to be close to this stove on a regular basis which is where the soapstone shines. Since they run at 450 or so the stoves are very comfortable to be around and beside. The 800 degree steel plate stove might be a little harsh in close quarters.

 

[Chief Ryan]

I just got back from looking at the Hearthstone Homestead. Very good looking stove and the firebox is alot larger than it looks like in pitures.

If anyone out there has this stove or any Hearthstone please post good and bad reviews.

Thank you

 

[eernest4]

Hey ryan, what are you chief of??? Are you a fireman?

1200 sq ft house so a small size stove could heat it in a mild climate but no overnite burn
because firebox dont hold enough wood.

1800 sq ft better size fire box , but only hold enough wood for 6 hr overnite burn.

2000 sq ft my fav size stove, 3.5 cubic ft firebox hold wood for 10 hr overnite burn & red hot embers in the morning.

I favor all steel stoves, no cast iren seams & gaskets to leak & rebuild.

"KEEP IT SIMPLE,STUPID'' is my motto, less to break & repair, is why I choose secondary burn over cats, even though the cat owners say their stoves get hotter on less wood , I also see them spending 400 & 500 for repairs & still don't always get the stove to work right. So, why take the chance
of having problems with the stove? Life is tough enough,as it is, without taking extra risks.

I recommend www.englanderstoves.com ,the dependable.low cost, work horse of the wood stove herd.

www.overstockstoves.com has model 50-tnc-30 for $799.oo new, including shipping.

The summersheat 50-snc-30lc is= the englander 50-30ncl is =the 50-tnc-30 , all the same stove with variations in trim & price. There is no better stove at 1.5 times the price. You need to spend 2K to beat an englander.

Compair that to the price of the soapstone stove & let me know if you saved $1000.oo or $2000.oo or even more.

Other places to find englanderstoves are lowes,home depot,ace hardware & true value hardware.

 

[KeithO]

Ryan, the reason why catalysts have been eliminated to a large extent has to do with primarily 1 factor, namely PROFIT. With the catalyst, both the substrate, coating and mounting material (typically ceramic fiber) have to be "bought in" which means the stove company has to spend "real money" as opposed to having someone drill some holes in a few tubes out back in the shop.

Now the secondary combustion process has been around for a while. If you are old enough, you may remember vehicles with secondary air injection in the exhaust manifold in the days prior to effective catalytic converters. You may also notice that catalytic converters are all you find on modern vehicles anymore and that secondary air injection has gone the way of the dodo. This should tell you something about what is and is not effective when it come down to meeting serious emissions regulations. I might also remind everyone that if a secondary air system could be made to work, all those cars out there would not have platinum coated catalysts in them (have you seen the price of platinum recently ???)

It is true that with adequate "tuning", secondary air stoves can be made to pass the EPA requirements. That does not mean that these stoves will provide you with the most efficient or trouble free operation. In fact, a lot of the "tuning" needed to pass the EPA testing in fact causes a lot of problems in the daily operation of these stoves. The fact that the secondary air is typically non adjustable can cause overfiring for people who have good tall chimneys in a very cold climate that develop a strong draft once up to temperature. In my personal circumstance, I have a Morso 7110 and about 10ft of double wall to the ceiling then another 16ft of class A through the attic and out the roof. In cold weather, the chimney draft is sufficiently strong that I have to work with the primary air closed all but 1/8". Thats my entire adjustment range for primary air (other than immediately after reloading). Open any more than 1/8" and the flue gas temp will climb up to over 1000f. If I close it even 1/16th further, the fire may die out. Once the stove is good and hot, I can frequently close the air all the way and the flue gas temperature will stay around 600f for the next few hours.

If one makes a comparison to catalytic stoves, they typically operate best at flue gas temperatures around the 400 degree mark or lower. Less heat up the chimney = more heat in the house, period. It also appears that due to the lack of secondary air, catalytic stoves are a lot easier and less fussy in their adjustment. Without the gaping secondary air inlet (like an open window in your house) all the air has to come through the primary air inlet, making the stove easier to control.

Negatives are that some maintenance is required with the cat. If you need a new combuster, look at the aftermarket units. The price is a lot better than with the manufacturers markups added on top.

I would say that my next stove will be a cat stove, but it looks like it will be a coal stove instead, because I will be moving out west where (hard)wood is not so plentiful, but coal is. I plan on building a masonry heater for burning pinion pine in, the 2 suit each other perfectly. It would be lousy feeding that stuff to a wood stove, particularly a non cat (since it tends to run away because of the resin content).

Give the Cat stoves some carefull consideration while there are still some left. I think they are much better suited for primary heating 24/7 than non cats. For occasional use, a non cat will be fine.

by the way, designing catalytic converter systems for cars and trucks (including soot filters for diesels) just happens to be my job, so I'm biased...

Keith

 

[swestall]

I actually agree with what you said. The sad part is, "while they are still around". Unless something changes things, they may not be. And,there is the rub.
We are clearly at a place in time where the future of burn technology is in flux.
My personal feeling is that either one will work fine in a woodstove but I went for burn tubes after being burned by refractory units and getting tired of rebuilding VC CAT stoves.

 

[KeithO]

Actually, Blaze King (www.blazeking.com) and Woodstock Soapstone (www.woodstove.com) seem to have every intention of being around and continuing to make good products for some time. But it is becoming a lonely place up there on that mountain....

 

[swestall]

Yes that's it.

 

[Highbeam]

And blaze king has their non-cat line to test the waters.

I always thought that air injection in cars went away becuase of the superior control that fuel injection offered. I never saw AI AND EFI.

 

[Redox]

I am inclined to agree with Highbeam on this one. The last car(s) I bought with air injection were the last Roadmasters (95-96) that actually had an electric air pump that only ran for 5 minutes on a cold startup to light off the catalyst. The four O2 sensors and EFI were enough to minimize the excess fuel and make the car run clean. I just aced the MD emissions test on the 95 and it has 250K on it with the original cat.

I purposely avoided a cat stove because I thought they were more finicky in their operation and I am still somewhat of a newbie at this. I have had absolutely no problem controlling the secondary combustion on my Quadrafire; you can just look at the fire and tell if it's OK. I haven't even gotten around to installing a permanent thermometer on it yet. I checked it frequently with an IR during my learning curve and am now confident enough to run it without a thermometer. I also watch the chimney like a hawk to make sure it is burning clean. No problems here! Besides, the entertainment value in watching the secondary burn is priceless. YMMV as always. Quad claims to have the cleanest burning line of stoves and doesn't use a cat in any of them.

On a side note, has anybody noticed the rise in thefts of cats off of cars. My neighbor had one stolen right out of his driveway one night. Apparently platinum is really shooting up in price. Toyota 4runners are primo targets: big converter, bolted in and high ground clearance. Cop said that a guy with a battery Sawzall can make $1000 a night!

Chris

 

[North of 60]

I think each type has its advantages. Ive had both and couldnt imagine any other way to burn wood for my needs. YES thats with a CAT. The longer controlled clean burns on low setting is what has sold me. As far as finicky . Set it and forget it has been my procedure. Those soapstone stoves cat or non cat are both really nice stoves. EVEN if I had to replace my combuster every year it would still be worth it to me. Enjoy your shopping.

 

[dean]

The layout of a ranch home, single or split level, will need the heat to be moved around to the rest of the living area from the fireplace. Ceiling fans work well but some say they make the room feel drafty. There are other tricks to bring the built up heat down from the ceiling. ie: duct work with the intake register placed just below the ceiling vented down to exhaust register with a small fan inserted at the bottom of the wall. Soapstone and cast iron are both excellent conductors of heat.

nicholas

jotul 500 bbe
stihl ms 250
6 & 8 lb. maul

 

[begreen]

On almost every ceiling fan there is a switch on the side so that you can reverse direction. They put it there for a reason and that is winter operation. Reverse the ceiling fan so that it is blowing upward and voila, not drafty. But the air is still circulating and the heat pocket up high in the ceiling is being redistributed to the outer walls of the room, where the cold is.

 

[eernest4]

The cat enthuisests are right about a little more wood milage & a little more low burn control & low buen time but they fail to mention thermal shock of the cat honeycombs causing them to physically crumble & disintergrate. This can happen if you engage your cat before the stove is up to proper opperating temp of if you get a wet split mixed in with your perfectly dry wood.
Around in feb, march, & sometimes in april , wood burners that have a light wood pile, start to run out of dry seasoned wood & may have to buy a cord of "so called " seasoned wood from a wood dealer.

Well,guess what? The so called seasoned wood in not only not seasoned more that
4 to 6 months , if that, but it is not dry, either. They store it outside in a field & don't even bother to cover it with a tarp, but rather,they just leave the wood exposed to the elements.

It is high moisture content & with a cat stove ,you just plain can't even attempt to burn this wood, unelse you intend to run the stove with the bypass damper open all the time, effectivaly turning the cat into a 30 % efficient old time smoker.

The Ability to burn wet wood, with a secondary burn stove ,if you must ,is worth a lot.

Here is the link to the cat maintaince & repair book. You can read it for yourself & see for yourself if you really want to get involved with that kind of a stove.

(broken link removed to http://www.condar.com/cleaning.html)

 

[BurningIsLove]

Chief, are you planning on using the stove for primary heat all the time, or just occasionally to take the edge off? If its going to be a near 24x7 operation, then you can likely be happy with either cat or non-cat.

As mentioned, non-cats have a longer learning curve and are more sensitive to conditions, but in theory are cheaper to operate over the long term since there is no catalytic material to replace. However, because of EPA regs, in my experience with the two non-cats I use (Liberty & VC), they really need to be run 24x7 or thereabouts in order to achieve consistent, secondary combustion & a clean burn.

A catalytic on the other hand (again, in my experience) will operate cleanly under a larger range of conditions, and can reach operational temperature much more quickly than a non-cat. So these lend themselves to the 'occasional' burner.

My $0.02

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Chief, before we replaced our old stove last year we looked at a lot of stoves. We intentionally stayed away from cat. stoves as we just were afraid of them and could see no advantage plus the cat. has to be replaced every so often, hence, the additional costs. Well, after a long search, we again looked at the Woodstock soapstone stoves (we had looked at them many years ago).

Naturally we also looked at the Hearthstone soapstone stoves too and liked the looks of them and had heard good things about them. But to make a long story short, we finally ended up with a cat. stove from Woodstock. This company is almost unbelievable. What they do and how they run the company is what you might call old fashioned. They really care about their customers and go to great lengths to make sure the customer is satisfied.

So, we got our first cat. stove. We found that maintenance is minimal. For instance, we just cleaned our cat. This amounts to removing the cat. (just lift the lid and pick up the cat.) and brushing it with an old paint brush. We also vacuum the fine fly ash in the top of the stove at the same time. This takes maybe 2-3 minutes total. This is the first time we have looked at the cat. since early January. We also looked at the chimney. It is as clean as a whistle. Even the cap is clean and does not need any cleaning. And we heat our home totally with the Fireview.

They told us we would use less wood. We figured that was nothing but marketing hype. Wrong! I won't know for sure until the heating season is done, but right now it looks like we'll use at least 40% less wood than with our old heater and the house is warmer.

I am still amazed at this stove. Several times I've gotten up during the night and naturally went to the stove to check everything is okay. I do this without turning on lights as I don't mind walking in the dark. When I get to the stove it appears the fire has gone out. Many times all you can see is the smallest bit of red coal in the bottom...yet, the stove is kicking out good heat. Good heat means 500-600 degrees. How can this be?! I don't know, but I love it.

In short, I can not say enough good about this stove and the company. Think strong about it before you buy.

 

[raybonz]

Chief, before we replaced our old stove last year we looked at a lot of stoves. We intentionally stayed away from cat. stoves as we just were afraid of them and could see no advantage plus the cat. has to be replaced every so often, hence, the additional costs. Well, after a long search, we again looked at the Woodstock soapstone stoves (we had looked at them many years ago).

Naturally we also looked at the Hearthstone soapstone stoves too and liked the looks of them and had heard good things about them. But to make a long story short, we finally ended up with a cat. stove from Woodstock. This company is almost unbelievable. What they do and how they run the company is what you might call old fashioned. They really care about their customers and go to great lengths to make sure the customer is satisfied.

So, we got our first cat. stove. We found that maintenance is minimal. For instance, we just cleaned our cat. This amounts to removing the cat. (just lift the lid and pick up the cat.) and brushing it with an old paint brush. We also vacuum the fine fly ash in the top of the stove at the same time. This takes maybe 2-3 minutes total. This is the first time we have looked at the cat. since early January. We also looked at the chimney. It is as clean as a whistle. Even the cap is clean and does not need any cleaning. And we heat our home totally with the Fireview.

They told us we would use less wood. We figured that was nothing but marketing hype. Wrong! I won't know for sure until the heating season is done, but right now it looks like we'll use at least 40% less wood than with our old heater and the house is warmer.

I am still amazed at this stove. Several times I've gotten up during the night and naturally went to the stove to check everything is okay. I do this without turning on lights as I don't mind walking in the dark. When I get to the stove it appears the fire has gone out. Many times all you can see is the smallest bit of red coal in the bottom...yet, the stove is kicking out good heat. Good heat means 500-600 degrees. How can this be?! I don't know, but I love it.

In short, I can not say enough good about this stove and the company. Think strong about it before you buy.

Hi Dennis,
Your stove is a real beauty for sure and I too feel that cat stoves are very good... Just wondering what a new cat costs for your stove.. Mine are still $100.00 and worth every cent with all the wood you save.. I heat my whole house on 3 cords a year (1632 sq. ft. log home in Mass.) ... My experience is limited to this stove so I can't speak for the secondary burn system. Personally I love the look of the soapstone stoves.. Does your stove contain a lot of refractory material as that seems to be the weakpoint on many of the newer stoves? My stove has no refractory and the upkeep has amounted to nothing.. Look forward to your comments and feedback on your fine stove..

Ray

 

[KeithO]

Woodstock uses soapstone as the "refractory" in many cases (have not seen how the cat is installed) but there is no firebrick for instance. VC seems to make "cheap" easily damaged refractory components by comparison.

 

[jpl1nh]

I have the smaller brother to Dennis's Fireview, the Woodstock Keystone. I would agree with everything Dennis says. Why there are not more cat stoves? I think Keith's explanation is as good as any cause I can't think of any other reason. If you buy a Woodstock stove, I guarantee you that you will love it. The stoves and the company that makes them are absolutely top notch. This morning I had a fire burning down at about 9AM, I asked my wife to not add any more wood and shut it down as low as it would go when she left around noon. At that point there would be a med small coal bed and a bunch of ash and I wanted the stove cool so I could clean the glass when I got home about 7PM. After a couple of weeks the glass builds up a slight whitish film which comes right off with windex so that it is then sparkling clean. At 7PM, while it was cool enough that I could wash the glass, there was still a real bed of coals under the ash layer. Finnished the glass threw in some wood and started it right back up. Last year went through 5 cords of wood with my older cast stove, temps would get doen to upper 50's in the house overnight. This year I'm about 3 1/2 now, estimate 4 total when done in a few weeks and the house is always upper 60's or higher. Burned 20 gals heating oil too. Both the BlazeKing and Woodstock owners will tell you to go cat. VC owners unfortunately have sometimes had stove quality issues that keep them from being as unanamous in their praise for cats though most owners of older VC models will tell you they love them too. Love the Hearthstones too, but I'm sold on cats.

 

[slindo]

Vermont castings cat (and probably the new non-cat stoves) seem to be built with an assumption that they well be given a full rebuild every 5-20 years to replace the delicate refractory box inside. This wasn't a problem when parts were available at reasonable price, and there were dealers that actually stocked them, but is now that the VC is trying to solve their cashflow problems by cranking up the price of parts to an insane degree, and many serious woodburning shops are dropping them. So I would not get a VC, even though our Encore was a terrific stove for the first 15 years we had it.

Though I realize a lot of our later problems with our Encore were of our own making, for not realizing sooner that the stove was inherently different from the earlier, all-iron stoves, and required considereably more careful treatment.

BTW, one real problem with the older Encores was that you COULD NOT start a fire in a resonable length of time without opening the firebox door, and this was an invitation to overfiring. Anyone know if the new ones are the same?

Woodstock uses soapstone as the "refractory" in many cases (have not seen how the cat is installed) but there is no firebrick for instance. VC seems to make "cheap" easily damaged refractory components by comparison.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Thank you Ray. It appears most of your questions have been answered. However, Keith should know that our Woodstock stove does have firebrick. There are a total of 4 bricks lining the bottom of the stove. (I think that also answers your question Ray.)

The cat. has to be replaced approximately every 6 or 7 years I am told. Price today is $100, so over even 5 years would not be that bad.

How to clean or replace the cat.? Simply lift the lid of the stove. When the stove is shipped, the cat. is held in by two bolts. Remove those bolts and you do not have to replace them. So just lift the lid, reach in with one hand and pick up the cat. To replace, just sit the cat back in. It only goes in one way so you can't do it wrong.

They recommend cleaning the cat. every 4 to 6 weeks or every cord of wood. We cleaned ours after 2 months of burning only to find there was practically nothing to clean. Perhaps different woods would make a difference but we've had no problems. Also, our chimney looks just like new (installed when we installed the stove last summer). Well, the cap has discolored a bit but there is nothing to clean off of it. So, thus far for the burning season I'd guess we've got about a teaspoon full of flaky creosote (got that when we took the bottom cap off the chimney). Be it known too that we heat our home 100% with that wood stove. Our heating season usually runs from late September until mid May.

 

[raybonz]

Thank you Ray. It appears most of your questions have been answered. However, Keith should know that our Woodstock stove does have firebrick. There are a total of 4 bricks lining the bottom of the stove. (I think that also answers your question Ray.)

The cat. has to be replaced approximately every 6 or 7 years I am told. Price today is $100, so over even 5 years would not be that bad.

How to clean or replace the cat.? Simply lift the lid of the stove. When the stove is shipped, the cat. is held in by two bolts. Remove those bolts and you do not have to replace them. So just lift the lid, reach in with one hand and pick up the cat. To replace, just sit the cat back in. It only goes in one way so you can't do it wrong.

They recommend cleaning the cat. every 4 to 6 weeks or every cord of wood. We cleaned ours after 2 months of burning only to find there was practically nothing to clean. Perhaps different woods would make a difference but we've had no problems. Also, our chimney looks just like new (installed when we installed the stove last summer). Well, the cap has discolored a bit but there is nothing to clean off of it. So, thus far for the burning season I'd guess we've got about a teaspoon full of flaky creosote (got that when we took the bottom cap off the chimney). Be it known too that we heat our home 100% with that wood stove. Our heating season usually runs from late September until mid May.

Bricks on the bottom is minor compared to other stoves which have lots of specially shaped refractory materials.. I will definitely avoid those stoves due to the expensive upkeep.. I generally only check my cat once a season and the most I find is a little dust from fly ash and no plugged holes in the honeycomb.. On this stove to get to the cat just lift off the small cooktop (about 10"x10").. No tools required however yours sounds simple enough to me.. I've heard it's best to burn hardwoods with a cat and not use glossy colored paper to start fires as this can damage the cat otherwise you should get at least 6 years of service..In the long run your stove should be less expensive to own with less hassle than a stove with lots of refractory materials.. Thanx for the info!

Ray

 

[RedRanger]

[quote author="Highbeam" date="1205818518"]And blaze king has their non-cat line to test the waters.


Yes testing the waters makes me wonder about the future of cats? I measured and found that the blazeking princess will fit in my fireplace opening. But,I dunno, still think that when I buy a new insert in a couple of years, it will likely be another PE.

Don`t think I could bring myself to gamble on parts availability,as much as I like the "princess cat"..