Cat or non-Cat--THAT is the question--

[HearthKB]

With all of the clean burning "non cat" stoves out there, why would you buy something that you "know" you will have to spend money on in a few years?? And another thing. You won't really know when the catalyst has lost its' efficiency. There is no "check engine light". They don't last forever. Some manufacturers recommend replacement at 3-5 years. For my stove that was $300 plus shipping.

Where are the specs that show that a cat stove is more efficient than a clean burning non-cat like the Quadrafire or even the cheap as dirt "I'm gonna buy" Englander 30NC at 1.63 grams/hour?? I think cat stove are on their way out..

First time I've heard someone say that cat stoves are on the way out. Any truth to this statement?

 

[jay3000]

With all of the clean burning "non cat" stoves out there, why would you buy something that you "know" you will have to spend money on in a few years?? And another thing. You won't really know when the catalyst has lost its' efficiency. There is no "check engine light". They don't last forever. Some manufacturers recommend replacement at 3-5 years. For my stove that was $300 plus shipping.

Where are the specs that show that a cat stove is more efficient than a clean burning non-cat like the Quadrafire or even the cheap as dirt "I'm gonna buy" Englander 30NC at 1.63 grams/hour?? I think cat stove are on their way out..

First time I've heard someone say that cat stoves are on the way out. Any truth to this statement?

Take that with agrain of salt.. That's just my guess based on the facts that equal performance can be acheived without a catalyst and for less money.. Based on what I have found.

 

[HearthKB]

With all of the clean burning "non cat" stoves out there, why would you buy something that you "know" you will have to spend money on in a few years?? And another thing. You won't really know when the catalyst has lost its' efficiency. There is no "check engine light". They don't last forever. Some manufacturers recommend replacement at 3-5 years. For my stove that was $300 plus shipping.

Where are the specs that show that a cat stove is more efficient than a clean burning non-cat like the Quadrafire or even the cheap as dirt "I'm gonna buy" Englander 30NC at 1.63 grams/hour?? I think cat stove are on their way out..

First time I've heard someone say that cat stoves are on the way out. Any truth to this statement?

Take that with agrain of salt.. That's just my guess based on the facts that equal performance can be acheived without a catalyst and for less money.. Based on what I have found.

I was just asking because I ordered a Woodstock Fireview cat stove. After a large purchase, I ALWAYS SECOND GUESS MYSELF!

 

[thebeatlesrgood]

I think cat stove are on their way out..

there is some truth there.
I went to a few local hearth shops and they all advised against cats. of the three shops they only had one DW cat available because they just dont sell much of them anymore. they basically said that catalytic converters were put in stoves as a quick solution to meet the more strict epa requirements. They were crucial during this transitional period but since then they have developed technology to meet these requirements without finicky expensive metals. now i dont know if they are on their way out, as long as people are willing to buy them they'll keep selling them, but they are already selling less and less cats and, with advancements in afterburner tech, this trend will most likely continue.

 

[unit40]

Yesterday, a co-worker and i were discussing wood stoves, and he said that he heard somewhere that pretty soon in Massachusetts, you will only be able to install a cat stove. Anyone heard that or know if there is any truth to it? Doesn't really matter to me cause I'm all set but it might matter to others.

 

[Girl]

Yesterday, a co-worker and i were discussing wood stoves, and he said that he heard somewhere that pretty soon in Massachusetts, you will only be able to install a cat stove. Anyone heard that or know if there is any truth to it? Doesn't really matter to me cause I'm all set but it might matter to others.

I was just talking to the woodstove store owner & cats seem to be on the way out, they have been selling just about all non cats . So I don't think there is any truth in that.

Patapsco Mike-
No offense taken. I don't let my BF near my stove except to machine parts if need or tighten the doors. My female friends who burn do not let the man folk near the stove, lol. They do all the fire keeping.

 

[Tim IA]

Are we really comparing apples to apples here?? Both technologies can give you clean burns no doubt, but it sounds like the burns themselves are different. I haven't heard to many disagreements in that cats will give you a longer, cleaner burn when using the stove on the "low and slow" burn rate. My previous non-cats you had to be careful to not smoke out the neighbors when setting the stove on low. I don't have a cat stove, but just seems to me from talking to others that have woodstocks for example that they would not go back to non-cat. My local dealers too try to make the cats sound bad, but they used to sell the VC cats that seemed to be more expensive to maintain and had trouble in the long run. The woodstocks seem to be built to take advantage of the cat technology without all of the delicate refactory materials that may have caused the higher replacement costs and frustration for other cat users.

This is just interesting stuff and am trying to track. I'm about a day away from ordering a Fireview myself so I have great interest in this thread!

 

[Backwoods Savage]

After years of burning non-cat pre-EPA stoves, I bought a catalytic VC Dutchwest. When the cat was new, it was a revelation. Long burns, very clean, fired up quickly and pretty easily. But by year 3 I was not a happy camper. My burns were shorter, the whole unit was more fickle, and I was on my second temperature sensor (they just seemed to disintegrate). I replaced the cat, which cost almost 20% of the cost of the whole stove (at the time, the stove was about $1,000). This meant also replacing the gaskets. Getting to it required removing 4 bolts and the top of the stove, then removing a brittle piece of insulation. No huge deal, but annoying. The stove ran great for that year and part of the next, but then the stove started acting up again. I opened the top to find that the cat had fallen apart. I was on to #3. I had lost my receipt, so I had to pay full price for it. At this point I moved and sold the stove. I made a point to look for a non-cat stove. Just less of a hassle in my opinion, and less of a cost.

I found it a PITA dealing with engaging and disengaging the cat, and while I was at work my wife would frequently forget to re-engage it when she added wood or forget to disengage it before opening the door (which would put a lot of smoke in the house really fast). Or she would let the fire burn too far down, then not wait long enough to engage the cat after restarting the fire. This is all user error, but still...

Sounds like that Dutchwest stove was a problem for the cat. In the Woodstock Fireview, there are no bolts to remove before changing or cleaning the cat. (There are two shipping bolts that must be removed the first time but then just leave them out.) The brittle insulation? Wow. Sounds to me like a poor design. Nothing like that in a Woodstock. Simple proceedure.

In your second second paragraph it appears you described most of the problem with your cat. stove. It wasn't really the stove so much as it was improper use of the stove.

Operating a wood stove does not take rocket science knowledge. It really is not difficult at all. However, one must pay close attention to what is being done. If one can't pay enough attention to simply flip a lever, then perhaps that person should not run the stove at all. A wood stove or anything that has fire is not something to take lightly. If you can't even operate a simple lever then perhaps you are also a danger to the home. Forget to close the draft and your house could go up in smoke.
Replacing the cat. should also not require replacing any gaskets.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

After years of burning non-cat pre-EPA stoves, I bought a catalytic VC Dutchwest. When the cat was new, it was a revelation. Long burns, very clean, fired up quickly and pretty easily. But by year 3 I was not a happy camper. My burns were shorter, the whole unit was more fickle, and I was on my second temperature sensor (they just seemed to disintegrate). I replaced the cat, which cost almost 20% of the cost of the whole stove (at the time, the stove was about $1,000). This meant also replacing the gaskets. Getting to it required removing 4 bolts and the top of the stove, then removing a brittle piece of insulation. No huge deal, but annoying. The stove ran great for that year and part of the next, but then the stove started acting up again. I opened the top to find that the cat had fallen apart. I was on to #3. I had lost my receipt, so I had to pay full price for it. At this point I moved and sold the stove. I made a point to look for a non-cat stove. Just less of a hassle in my opinion, and less of a cost.

I found it a PITA dealing with engaging and disengaging the cat, and while I was at work my wife would frequently forget to re-engage it when she added wood or forget to disengage it before opening the door (which would put a lot of smoke in the house really fast). Or she would let the fire burn too far down, then not wait long enough to engage the cat after restarting the fire. This is all user error, but still...

Hmmm... Very interesting post. I just ordered a Woodstock Fireview instead of the Hearthstone Heritage. I liked the longer burn times of the cat stove. BUT... now that I heard your end of the story, I hope its not to much of a hassel to run this stove. The wife will be feeding it during the day so I have to make sure she knows exactly how to use it. In regards to the cat itself, the Woodstock cat is only $125 brand new and pro-rated for the first five years. So.... the maintenance cost shouldn't be that much.

Thanks for your honest opinion about your experience with a cat stove. Even though I can't change my mind now because the stove is already ordered, more opinions are always welcome.

A hassel to run the Woodstock Fireview? Let's see! Basically there are two scenarios:

1. The stove is cold and you start the fire. Before engaging the cat. (a simple movement of a lever) the stove needs to be up to temperature. A thermometer comes with this stove. It is placed on top of the stove. When the temperature reaches 250 degrees, you move the lever. Done.

2. You reload the warm stove. First step is to open the draft, which you do on all stoves. Then you move that little lever disengaging the cat. Providing you didn't let the stove cool, you load the wood, close the door and wait 10 minutes. (You might have to adjust the draft, depending upon your chimney, the wood, etc.) After 10 minutes, engage the cat. (move that little lever), set the draft and you are done for hours.

As for engaging the cat. after 10 minutes, that really is not much of an added step because you would naturally be checking the stove anyway to see if the draft needed set. That is because with new wood in the stove it is good to open the draft for a time to burn off that last of the moisture in the wood and clear the chimney of the smoke. So you would be right there at the stove and only need to move a lever. (That lever again needs to be moved before you open the stove door.)

That really does not seem all that complicated to me and my wife usually takes care of the stove during the daytime. She has never had a problem, and I highly doubt you will either.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

After reading all of this, now you guys got me confused. I always thought that you get X amount of BTU's out of a given piece or pound of wood. If the stoves, whether they be CAT or non-cat, are listed as putting out X amount of BTU's per hour, then what would it really matter if it was a cat or non-cat? For example, this log of oak will give 45,000 btu of energy. It seems that the Cat owners, and I'm exaggerating here, are saying this log will burn longer and still give out the same btu hours of energy than a non cat stove. I think you need a certain amount of BTU hours of heat to maintain a given temperature. Why would 3 cords of wood in a cat stove put out the same btus than 6 cords in a non-cat stove?

Well, I used to burn up to six cords of wood per winter. After buying a stove with a cat. I burned less than 3 cords last winter. Maybe the same btus, maybe not. But because the cat. really burns the smoke, would you not get more heat, thus, more btus? If I burn 40-50% less wood and get more heat, do I get more btus? Perhaps this is just because the stove is more efficient, but that also means it gives more heat per stick of wood.

The btus don't really matter in the end. In the end, you want to get the maximum amount of heat from a given piece of wood. If that wood lasts longer and gives the same heat the whole time that you would get in a different stove burning a shorter time, that is what you really want. We do not even need to know how many btus there are. All we need to know is that we are warm.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I think cat stove are on their way out..

there is some truth there.
I went to a few local hearth shops and they all advised against cats. of the three shops they only had one DW cat available because they just dont sell much of them anymore. they basically said that catalytic converters were put in stoves as a quick solution to meet the more strict epa requirements. They were crucial during this transitional period but since then they have developed technology to meet these requirements without finicky expensive metals. now i dont know if they are on their way out, as long as people are willing to buy them they'll keep selling them, but they are already selling less and less cats and, with advancements in afterburner tech, this trend will most likely continue.

Well, if the line of stoves I sell are non-cat. stoves, then perhaps that is the real reason I don't sell many cat. stoves......... Quick solution? Hum....

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Are we really comparing apples to apples here?? Both technologies can give you clean burns no doubt, but it sounds like the burns themselves are different. I haven't heard to many disagreements in that cats will give you a longer, cleaner burn when using the stove on the "low and slow" burn rate. My previous non-cats you had to be careful to not smoke out the neighbors when setting the stove on low. I don't have a cat stove, but just seems to me from talking to others that have woodstocks for example that they would not go back to non-cat. My local dealers too try to make the cats sound bad, but they used to sell the VC cats that seemed to be more expensive to maintain and had trouble in the long run. The woodstocks seem to be built to take advantage of the cat technology without all of the delicate refactory materials that may have caused the higher replacement costs and frustration for other cat users.

This is just interesting stuff and am trying to track. I'm about a day away from ordering a Fireview myself so I have great interest in this thread!

True that you can get clean burns from both, but from what I have seen with various stoves in our area, the cat. stoves burn much cleaner and longer with less hassel. Some of the non-cat. stove owners really have problems getting the clean burns and their stoves give lots of smoke. You don't get that with the cat. stoves, or at least with the Fireview.

You are right about some of the stoves like the VC cat. stoves having problems. Never heard of one of the Woodstock stoves having the problem.

Also, when one is talking to a local dealer, you have to take into consideration that the local guy will attempt to build a case for his stoves over any other stove that he does not carry in his shop. He is trying to make a sale and won't find much good to say about something he doesn't carry. Naturally he thinks, or says, his line is the way to go.

Enjoy that new Fireview! You will have that for many, many years and be very happy with it.

 

[unit40]

It seems from most of the stove specs. that I have been reading, that a non-cat stove will burn cleaner than a cat stove - as measured by the grams/hr of emmissions. But also the cat stoves are generally more efficient. But also after reading whatever owners manuals that I could, it is obvious that a cat stove is more complicated - not saying it is anything close to rocket science - just saying they are more complicated with very specific procedures to follow every step of the way, from lighting, refilling, reviving a fire, monitoring temperatures, flipping levers back and forth, engaging/disengaging combusters, do's and don'ts, than a non-cat stoves. A non-cat you just light the darn wood and do your best as you would with any stove to keep the temps in the burn zone. If that isn't easy enough I don't know what is.

 

[HearthKB]

Also, when one is talking to a local dealer, you have to take into consideration that the local guy will attempt to build a case for his stoves over any other stove that he does not carry in his shop. He is trying to make a sale and won't find much good to say about something he doesn't carry. Naturally he thinks, or says, his line is the way to go.

Enjoy that new Fireview! You will have that for many, many years and be very happy with it.

I experienced this first hand. I went to my local dealer to purchase a stove. He recommened the Hearthstone Heritage. Its a beautiful stove and would have been perfect for my home. But I never pull the trigger right away. I did som research on Hearth.com and read positive reviews on the Woodstock Fireview. I went back to my dealer to look at the Heritage again. I mentioned the Fireview and said it has a cat. He basically said to stay away from them. Not worth the "hassel" of maintaining a cat stove and that the new non-cat stoves burn just as long and as clean. He didn't bash Woodstock but the cat stoves in general. So I came back to Hearth.com and you guys convinced me that the Fireview would be better for my needs. So I ordered it. I bet if the dealer and a few cat stoves on hand, he would not have put the technology down. I also bet if he made a good markup on cat stoves he would be pusing them out the door as fast as he can!


PS. Sorry for saying that the stove would be a hassel to use in my previous post. Didn't mean it like that. Guess it was a poor choice of words.

 

[Todd]

After years of burning non-cat pre-EPA stoves, I bought a catalytic VC Dutchwest. When the cat was new, it was a revelation. Long burns, very clean, fired up quickly and pretty easily. But by year 3 I was not a happy camper. My burns were shorter, the whole unit was more fickle, and I was on my second temperature sensor (they just seemed to disintegrate). I replaced the cat, which cost almost 20% of the cost of the whole stove (at the time, the stove was about $1,000). This meant also replacing the gaskets. Getting to it required removing 4 bolts and the top of the stove, then removing a brittle piece of insulation. No huge deal, but annoying. The stove ran great for that year and part of the next, but then the stove started acting up again. I opened the top to find that the cat had fallen apart. I was on to #3. I had lost my receipt, so I had to pay full price for it. At this point I moved and sold the stove. I made a point to look for a non-cat stove. Just less of a hassle in my opinion, and less of a cost.

I found it a PITA dealing with engaging and disengaging the cat, and while I was at work my wife would frequently forget to re-engage it when she added wood or forget to disengage it before opening the door (which would put a lot of smoke in the house really fast). Or she would let the fire burn too far down, then not wait long enough to engage the cat after restarting the fire. This is all user error, but still...

Sounds like thermo shock from wet wood or an overdraft situation causing flame impingement to the cat. Stove could of had an air leak somewhere or draft was too strong.

 

[Todd]

I am VERY close to pulling the trigger on a Fireplace Xtrordinair Elite 44. It is a cat. I am a little skeptical about a cat. The only stoves I've ever burned are non-cats. I am ripping out a 2 year old Heatilator Icon 100 and SL-1100 chimney to install a high efficiency fireplace and new chimney system. Is the fire burn not as attractive to look at with a cat? I'm going to spend big $ on this gig and I want both heat and a pretty fire to look at!

You will have a nice fire to look at, it just won't be quite as exciting as a non cat. It's more of a slow lazy looking flame with a once in awhile burst of blue/orange secondary flames.

 

[Todd]

With all of the clean burning "non cat" stoves out there, why would you buy something that you "know" you will have to spend money on in a few years?? And another thing. You won't really know when the catalyst has lost its' efficiency. There is no "check engine light". They don't last forever. Some manufacturers recommend replacement at 3-5 years. For my stove that was $300 plus shipping.

Where are the specs that show that a cat stove is more efficient than a clean burning non-cat like the Quadrafire or even the cheap as dirt "I'm gonna buy" Englander 30NC at 1.63 grams/hour?? I think cat stove are on their way out..

People spend money on non cat replacement parts too. Gaskets, tubes, fire bricks, and some of those cheaper ceramic baffles people tend to punch holes into when reloading.

Your right the cat doesn't last forever, but there is a "check engine" light, just look at your stack for smoke or you will tell by the temp of the stove. Cats generally last 12000-14000 hours before the start to degrade, it doesn't lose efficiency with every fire. Some people have had them last much longer. Dry wood and proper maintenance is key.

Look up the EPA woodstoves specs and you will find cat stoves generally are a bit more efficient. They won't go away anytime soon unless this new downdraft technology improves. So far it hasn't. I know Woodstock is commited to cats and take a look at Energy King, they use to make non cats (I owned one) now they only make cat stoves. I also don't think Blaze King would change their popular stove.

 

[TMonter]

People spend money on non cat replacement parts too. Gaskets, tubes, fire bricks, and some of those cheaper ceramic baffles people tend to punch holes into when reloading.

Most of those parts on many non-cat stoves are lifetime warranty.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

It seems from most of the stove specs. that I have been reading, that a non-cat stove will burn cleaner than a cat stove - as measured by the grams/hr of emmissions. But also the cat stoves are generally more efficient. But also after reading whatever owners manuals that I could, it is obvious that a cat stove is more complicated - not saying it is anything close to rocket science - just saying they are more complicated with very specific procedures to follow every step of the way, from lighting, refilling, reviving a fire, monitoring temperatures, flipping levers back and forth, engaging/disengaging combusters, do's and don'ts, than a non-cat stoves. A non-cat you just light the darn wood and do your best as you would with any stove to keep the temps in the burn zone. If that isn't easy enough I don't know what is.

Almost everything there in bold is the same as for non-cat. stoves! But I like that part of flipping levers back and forth (same as draft levers) then engaging/disengaging combusters (same as flipping levers back and forth), do's and don'ts (as on all stoves). All in all, the same thing for both stoves except that big part and hard work of moving one lever one way when putting wood in and then moving it back about the same time as you move the draft lever back. Hassle? I think not.

And if a cat. stove burns more efficiently, why would it not burn as clean or cleaner than a non-cat. stove?

Fireview EPA emission Rating: 1.3 grams/hr. Efficiency: 72% My chimney says it burns very clean. My woodpile says it is very efficient.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

This is from the Backwoods Savage's wife:

I am at the age (almost 64) where I have become more forgetful. Can't do more than one thing at a time any more. If I can manage, as inept as I feel that I am, to watch that stove for 10 minutes, then I can't see why a younger woman can't possibly be able to watch this stove. It is very simple.

I see posts where people are hoping their wives can handle the stove when you are gone. What? A child can do this! Certainly any sane woman should be able to do this with little trouble at all. Tending the stove is such an easy thing and having a stove with a cat. is just as simple as a non-cat. stove. You move the draft lever on both. On the cat. stove, most times you move the cat. lever at the same time as you move the draft lever.

Read the stove's manual; both husband and wife! It will help understand more of what is going on and will relieve a lot of fear.

Once again, the Fireview, with it's cat., is a no hassle and easy to operate stove; very simple.

 

[Todd]

Thank you Mrs. Savage!

When I win the lottery I'm going to buy all forum members a cat stove so you can decide for yourselves! :lol:

 

[HearthKB]

This is from the Backwoods Savage's wife:

I am at the age (almost 64) where I have become more forgetful. Can't do more than one thing at a time any more. If I can manage, as inept as I feel that I am, to watch that stove for 10 minutes, then I can't see why a younger woman can't possibly be able to watch this stove. It is very simple.

I see posts where people are hoping their wives can handle the stove when you are gone. What? A child can do this! Certainly any sane woman should be able to do this with little trouble at all. Tending the stove is such an easy thing and having a stove with a cat. is just as simple as a non-cat. stove. You move the draft lever on both. On the cat. stove, most times you move the cat. lever at the same time as you move the draft lever.

Read the stove's manual; both husband and wife! It will help understand more of what is going on and will relieve a lot of fear.

Once again, the Fireview, with it's cat., is a no hassle and easy to operate stove; very simple.

Thanks Mrs. Savage!! I'll print this out and show it to my wife. ;-)

 

[unit40]

I believe that part of the allure of burning with wood is the simplicity and self sufficiency, that harkens back to an earlier time. They didn't have no catalytic cumbusters and users manuals back then. Thats why I like my non-cat stove.

 

[Redox]

Sorry if I come across as a Quadrasnob, but I don't seem to have to do much to keep it "in the zone". Assuming you have a good bed of coals, you throw in the desired amount of firewood based on outdoor temperature, close the door and walk away. It may smoke a little for 5-10 minutes, but it settles right out and burns very clean. The air control is basically the accelerator pedal and determines how fast it burns. I very rarely use the startup control, but I will let the fire go for a while before I damp it back for the night. It's nothing like the old Fisher, so maybe I went from very bad to very good, but it works well for us.

I debated this back and forth when I was shopping and I decided to go the route of simplicity, as we didn't have a lot of burn time under our belts at the time. I have been very happy with the Quad, but I definitely would consider a cat in the future if we ever needed to replace the stove. What I never anticipated was the entertainment factor of the secondary burn; it's literally mezmerizing in a Lava Lite sort of way...

Chris

 

[begreen]

Bet you never figured on the entertainment factor of Hearth.com either. I know I didn't.