Cat or Secondary

[84td]

In my quest to buy a new insert or free standing and expanding my hearth, I am faced with a obvious question I cant seem to find the answer to. Maybe I am so green I am missing something but it seems all new stoves either are cat based or secondary air based. Am I right? Which one is better?

I searched a bit on the forum but I cant figure it out.

 

[shawneyboy]

Now you did it ! Here it comes..... the old which came first question, the chicken or the egg. I personally prefer the non cat EPA stove.... but that being said, I am sure that someone is about to prefer the cat stove.

 

[CALJREICH]

I bought a non cat Defiant VC. You could find some info at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/ I wanted to stay away from having to buy cat converters and I like to see the fire dance. I'm sure there are plenty here who have cat and non cat and probably love them. I think it just personal prefrence.

 

[Renovation]

Hey 84,

Welcome!

You didn't find the answer to your question, because there isn't one.

My free advice--search the forum, and read the informational articles and reviews here (look at the quick navigation drop down menu). Then figure out what your preferences are, and get the *stove* that is right for you. Then you'll have your own answer, which may change repeatedly.

Good luck!

 

[Battenkiller]

I wanted to stay away from having to buy cat converters and I like to see the fire dance.

I'd have a cat stove with no glass to tempt me. It's a wood burner. If I ever get an EPA stove, I want the best and most efficient thing I can find. Woodstock Classic comes to mind. There are fireplace computer widgets that I can download if I want to look at a fire.

 

[North of 60]

#1 is dry fuel. After that you can drive anyone you want and either will heat your home.

 

[84td]

One thing I am not liking about a CAT stove is that the cat may need to be serviced.

Also I like to burn a hot fire and I want to see flames through a nice big window.

I am leaning towards no cat but am still open to changing if cat is better.

 

[North of 60]

One thing I am not liking about a CAT stove is that the cat may need to be serviced.

Also I like to burn a hot fire and I want to see flames through a nice big window.

I am leaning towards no cat but am still open to changing if cat is better.

Its a trade off. I am on year 5 and looking good. Year 5 is probably 8yrs for most peoples run time. I am busy up here so I dont have time to fuss with the stove, and no time to watch a fire. I need heat and Oil is around $5 a gallon. A $250 combuster would be a steal for me with the results I have had to rely on wood heat. Secondary burn units have non-comparable light shows. There still is a nice view in a cat stove when the conditions are right.

 

[dafattkidd]

I'm glad you asked this question. I'm curious where this thread is going to go. I bought a non cat because I had a hunch I wouldn't always be burning the most seasoned wood, and I didn't want the hassle of dealing with cat maintenance issues. But after reading cat owners input here on the hearth, I'm pretty convinced that it's not that much upkeep, and cat owners really seem to love their stoves.

 

[johnstra]

The cat stoves seem to yield longer burn times if that's your goal. Check out the recent thread about 30 hours on a single load Those Blaze Kings are not so pretty to look at, but they sure seem to perform well.

 

[weatherguy]

Not sure why replacing the cat after a few years is a big deal when I read posts here every winter about someone replacing baffles and burn tubes on the non cat, doesnt that about equal out?

 

[pixelmountain]

Just for what it's worth,

Vermont Castings (broken link removed to http://bit.ly/guyT07) and (broken link removed to http://bit.ly/hWgs4B) run as either catalytic or non-cat.

These are brand new stove models, so this isn't a recommendation. Also Vermont Castings hasn't been in favor lately.

For a little more detail, here's an article that reads like a press release:

The Defiant 2N1 and the Encore 2N1 give owners the option of burning wood with or without a catalytic converter. All of Castings’ stoves, Howe said, are EPA-approved and have low emissions, but those with catalytic converters are slightly cleaner.

With the 2N1 models, owners can run the stoves without the converter, “in the early fall, when there is not a lot of draft and you don’t need too hot of a burn,” Howe explained. It only takes about five minutes, he said, to put the converter back in, to get the hotter burn for the cold winter months.

I ordered a non-catalytic Encore, and the 2N1 Encore is what arrived. I get the impression that's just what they're shipping now if you order a cat or non-cat Encore or Defiant.

No one here seems to know how to feel about the new model. I'm going to be a guinea pig. ;-) I've decided it's worth a go.

(Sorry, I edited those links above a few times. The forum software converts them to something else. Fixed it, finally.)

 

[Renovation]

Not sure why replacing the cat after a few years is a big deal when I read posts here every winter about someone replacing baffles and burn tubes on the non cat, doesnt that about equal out?

I think you have a point there, WG. Cat or thermal, all EPA burners have something under high thermal stress--either a cat or burn tubes and baffles. Cats may be more expensive--$200 every 3 to 6 years--but aren't thermal secondary burners subject to their own wear and maintenance? And if cats are more efficient, they'll save $ on wood, so I'm not sure there's a dramatic difference in overall expense in the long run.

Agreed? Thoughts?

I think perhaps, besides just deciding which *stove* you like best rather than technology, one trade off between cat and thermal reburners is flame display versus burn time. It seems fair to say that cats generall offer longer burns and may burn less wood, with the ability to burn slower, while thermals seem to have a nicer flame display and may cost less in replacement parts.

Does that seem like a valid point?

To me that doesn't make either technology superior, it's just a question of preference.

 

[TX-L]

In my quest to buy a new insert or free standing and expanding my hearth, I am faced with a obvious question I cant seem to find the answer to. Maybe I am so green I am missing something but it seems all new stoves either are cat based or secondary air based. Am I right? Which one is better?

I searched a bit on the forum but I cant figure it out.

Best of both worlds: Wait until 2011 and order up one of the new Woodstock hybrid stoves they are building; their website blog says they have a full secondary burn AND catalytic system. If I hadn't bought the Blaze King, I would (probably) have gotten one next year.

 

[bobforsaken]

One thing I am not liking about a CAT stove is that the cat may need to be serviced.

Also I like to burn a hot fire and I want to see flames through a nice big window.

I am leaning towards no cat but am still open to changing if cat is better.

Hi 84.. I'm new to wood burning but in less than a year I've had both.. and I can't be sure which I prefer..

Like you, I like to see the flames and with Secondary burning you can get overnight burns.

With the CAT stove I may be able to maybe get a little bit more burn time, but both would do the job for 24/7 burning.


The only guidelines I could offer is that if you are looking for just burning here and there to take the chill out, then Secondary burning is the way to go.

If instead you intend to be a 24/7 burner and want to get a very large stove even though you may not need it that big in the fall.. then the Cat gives you a nice option to run it low and effeciently for a long time. Although a reasonably sized secondary burner will allow you to do 24/7 burning as well.... but you have to run it hotter to get the efficient burn.





Good luck..

 

[certified106]

Just for what it's worth,

Vermont Castings (broken link removed to http://bit.ly/guyT07) and (broken link removed to http://bit.ly/hWgs4B) run as either catalytic or non-cat.

These are brand new stove models, so this isn't a recommendation. Also Vermont Castings hasn't been in favor lately.

For a little more detail, here's an article that reads like a press release:

The Defiant 2N1 and the Encore 2N1 give owners the option of burning wood with or without a catalytic converter. All of Castings’ stoves, Howe said, are EPA-approved and have low emissions, but those with catalytic converters are slightly cleaner.

With the 2N1 models, owners can run the stoves without the converter, “in the early fall, when there is not a lot of draft and you don’t need too hot of a burn,” Howe explained. It only takes about five minutes, he said, to put the converter back in, to get the hotter burn for the cold winter months.

I ordered a non-catalytic Encore, and the 2N1 Encore is what arrived. I get the impression that's just what they're shipping now if you order a cat or non-cat Encore or Defiant.

No one here seems to know how to feel about the new model. I'm going to be a guinea pig. ;-) I've decided it's worth a go.

(Sorry, I edited those links above a few times. The forum software converts them to something else. Fixed it, finally.)

Not to Hijack the thread but please keep us updated as I'm extremely interested in this stove and would love to hear your thoughts on it after you have tried it out!

 

[pixelmountain]

I ordered a non-catalytic Encore, and the 2N1 Encore is what arrived. I get the impression that's just what they're shipping now if you order a cat or non-cat Encore or Defiant.

No one here seems to know how to feel about the new model. I'm going to be a guinea pig. ;-) I've decided it's worth a go.

Not to Hijack the thread but please keep us updated as I'm extremely interested in this stove and would love to hear your thoughts on it after you have tried it out!

Sure thing! Honestly, I'm intrigued...

 

[firefighterjake]

#1 is dry fuel. After that you can drive anyone you want and either will heat your home.

I think this is perhaps the best answer I have ever seen when it comes to that age old question of secondary burners or catalytic combustors. Well said.

 

[firefighterjake]

There should be lots and lots of threads debating the merits and problems with secondary burners and cats . . . I will not rehash every item but I will say this . . . when I bought my stove I was convinced I wanted a secondary burner as I had concerns with replacing the cat every few years and concerns over using less than optimal wood . . . now, after hearing many actual users those fears have pretty much gone away and I would consider either tech . . . with the edge going to the cat for low and slow fires and the edge going to the secondary burners for being a little more forgiving when it comes to using less than optimal wood. As for the view . . . it's a wash in my book . . . secondary burners seem to give the best show, but cat users say they can change things up and have a bit of a light show as well.

I do disagree with baffles and burn tubes being frequently replaced . . . or rather I should say that these are not "wear items" that the manufacturer figures will need to be replaced by X amount of years . . . rather it is folks who are not being careful when they load their stove that end up damaging some of these items . . . and . . . to tell the truth . . . not all baffles are created equal . . . some are more fragile than others.

 

[corey21]

There should be lots and lots of threads debating the merits and problems with secondary burners and cats . . . I will not rehash every item but I will say this . . . when I bought my stove I was convinced I wanted a secondary burner as I had concerns with replacing the cat every few years and concerns over using less than optimal wood . . . now, after hearing many actual users those fears have pretty much gone away and I would consider either tech . . . with the edge going to the cat for low and slow fires and the edge going to the secondary burners for being a little more forgiving when it comes to using less than optimal wood. As for the view . . . it's a wash in my book . . . secondary burners seem to give the best show, but cat users say they can change things up and have a bit of a light show as well.

I do disagree with baffles and burn tubes being frequently replaced . . . or rather I should say that these are not "wear items" that the manufacturer figures will need to be replaced by X amount of years . . . rather it is folks who are not being careful when they load their stove that end up damaging some of these items . . . and . . . to tell the truth . . . not all baffles are created equal . . . some are more fragile than others.

Jake you have a great point about burn tubes. I noticed why i was shopping for a new stove that a lot of burn tubes looked like a rip off. But then i got the magnolia and its tubes are welded in place. Some say that's a bad thing but i noticed that they are very well built.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

One thing I am not liking about a CAT stove is that the cat may need to be serviced.

Also I like to burn a hot fire and I want to see flames through a nice big window.

I am leaning towards no cat but am still open to changing if cat is better.

Its a trade off. I am on year 5 and looking good. Year 5 is probably 8yrs for most peoples run time. I am busy up here so I dont have time to fuss with the stove, and no time to watch a fire. I need heat and Oil is around $5 a gallon. A $250 combuster would be a steal for me with the results I have had to rely on wood heat. Secondary burn units have non-comparable light shows. There still is a nice view in a cat stove when the conditions are right.

Half the charm of a wood stove for me is that big beautiful fire dancing like the northern lights,its mesmerizing. I have a DD harman TL-300 with a BIG fire view i use to heat rehabs,i spend my lunch and breaks watching the show. I often wonder if other stoves give as good a performance. THe heat is just the icing on the cake. NO way would i want a stove with no glass.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

One thing I am not liking about a CAT stove is that the cat may need to be serviced.

Also I like to burn a hot fire and I want to see flames through a nice big window.

I am leaning towards no cat but am still open to changing if cat is better.

First let me say that North of 60 hit the nail on the head. Dry wood is the key no matter what kind of a stove you have.


Now I will say your post reminds me of when we started shopping for a new stove. We had heard all the bad things about cat type stoves and figured we needed to stay away from them for sure. To shorten the story, I'll just say that we ended up with a cat stove. We are now into our 4th year with this cat stove and we love it. Also, this stove is our only source of heat in winter besides sunshine. It keeps us nice and warm.



But what about that service you speak of not liking? Great question!

We too wondered about it but found it to be a non-issue. We have found that we clean our cat 2 times per year. Once during mid-winter and again on the normal summer cleaning. So let's talk about that mid-winter cleaning, or service because that is all we are cleaning rather than the entire stove. I can clean, or service, our cat in around 2 minutes. However, I am slow and usually take maybe 3 minutes. Even my wife can do it in 3 minutes. This is what we do.

The top lid of our stove lifts open. With one hand we reach in and pull out the cat. I take it outside and with an old paint brush, just lightly brush the fly ash off the cat. Place it back in the stove and close the lid. End of service. I have read that one can use a pipe cleaner to unclog the holes in the cat if need be but we've never seen anything near a clog as all the little holes are always clean. So to us, servicing the cat is a non-issue.


What other benefits are there? Although I can not compare our stove to a non-cat EPA stove, I can compare our stove to our old stove. We have found that we burn only 1/2 the amount of fuel that we used to burn....and stay a whole lot warmer. A point was brought up a while back sort of berating me about making this statement and stating that I'd be burning less wood today also if I had bought a non-cat stove. I agree. However, I will also point out that I have never heard of anyone burning only 1/2 the amount of wood they did with their old stove. More typically they will claim to use about 1/3 less and that is what I've been told I could expect with a different stove.

Another great benefit with this stove is the chimney. Most folks sweep their chimney annually and rightfully so. Some clean more than once per year and we used to do ours from 3-6 times per year. With our cat stove, we have cleaned our chimney exactly one time and got only around a cup of soot and no creosote.

Cat or non-cat? Listen to both sides, but go with your heart. Get a stove you really like the looks of and has some great reviews. Find a dealer you respect and can believe. Do you want some guarantees? You will not find a better one than the one Woodstock gives. If you aren't satisfied with a Woodstock stove, send it back for a full refund. Buy from a stove shop and if you aren't satisfied, sorry, but you are out of luck.


Good luck in your quest for a new stove.

 

[jrprusak]

In my quest to buy a new insert or free standing and expanding my hearth, I am faced with a obvious question I cant seem to find the answer to. Maybe I am so green I am missing something but it seems all new stoves either are cat based or secondary air based. Am I right? Which one is better?

I searched a bit on the forum but I cant figure it out.

I want them both in one stove, are they on the market??

 

[Backwoods Savage]

One thing I am not liking about a CAT stove is that the cat may need to be serviced.

Also I like to burn a hot fire and I want to see flames through a nice big window.

I am leaning towards no cat but am still open to changing if cat is better.

Its a trade off. I am on year 5 and looking good. Year 5 is probably 8yrs for most peoples run time. I am busy up here so I dont have time to fuss with the stove, and no time to watch a fire. I need heat and Oil is around $5 a gallon. A $250 combuster would be a steal for me with the results I have had to rely on wood heat. Secondary burn units have non-comparable light shows. There still is a nice view in a cat stove when the conditions are right.

Half the charm of a wood stove for me is that big beautiful fire dancing like the northern lights,its mesmerizing. I have a DD harman TL-300 with a BIG fire view i use to heat rehabs,i spend my lunch and breaks watching the show. I often wonder if other stoves give as good a performance. THe heat is just the icing on the cake. NO way would i want a stove with no glass.

Trump, it seems a lot of folks get the impression you don't get a good show with a cat stove, like the Fireview. Nothing could be further from the truth. I agree, it can be a great show to watch. Then when you get all that heat, it can be fantastic! I know there have been a few videos posted showing the big fire show but sorry I don't have links. You'd have to do some searching.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

In my quest to buy a new insert or free standing and expanding my hearth, I am faced with a obvious question I cant seem to find the answer to. Maybe I am so green I am missing something but it seems all new stoves either are cat based or secondary air based. Am I right? Which one is better?

I searched a bit on the forum but I cant figure it out.

I want them both in one stove, are they on the market??

There should be one on the market soon. Best guess has been perhaps March. It will be another great Woodstock stove.