Caveman lost for fire...HELP

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

I am buying a house in Northern New Jersey, and my inspector has said that the firebox is rusted thru on the fireplace and that there is no damper, and that the wood stove (other room) is shot because there is rust thru on the chimney and where the chimney connects to the stove (the damper knob (?) just is hanging there and controls nothing). My questions are:

1. For the fireplace, I have seen stove inserts and plain fireplace (inserts?). Am I correct in understanding that both of these items slide in to the existing opening? If so for both, other then one being less expensive, what is the difference? I would like to just be able to throw some logs in the thing and watch them burn. I am not specifically looking for heating as the purpose for such, but obviously would not be opposed to lowering the heating bill. The fireplace is located in the center of the ranch home. It shares (seperate flues) the chimney with the Oil heat/Forced air system.

In addition, for both of these units, is it possible to just run a SS Chimney up the old mason Chimney?

2. The wood stove seems to have rust all over. (Pictures attatched) What difficulties are there in repainting(?) it and finding the right equipment to replace the chimney? The chimney currently is straight up and out the roof, is there any difference if I had the chimney on the roof removed and had it piped out the back wall of the room?

Thank you in adavance for sharing your wisdom. All I want to do is have both units functioning, the Fireplace more then the Stove. I figure worse comes to worse on the stove I just get a new one. When answering if you could give possibly a rough exspense estimate, basic to fancy.

Thank you again. I have

 

[elkimmeg]

I sure great advice is comming but your stove is a pice of ##### not worth fixing it it never was a decent stove what you really have is a death trap
also the vent pipe connected to is junk especially including the roof section

A lot of modern inserts can only be inserted in UL 127 approved pre fabbs in good shape rusted out ones pose a greater problem I m' not familliar with all models of inserts but it may be ppossible to find one that has zerro clearance on its own listing that could be installed. In reality your situation soulds like a tear out

Welcome to hearth net and sorry about spilling the bad news but your inspector had it right

 

[VT-Woodburner]

That puppy looks like an old "Franklin" stove. Yup, invented by ol' Ben himself! They became very popular in the 70s. And it looks like the owner got his money's worth. Time to say 'buh bye".

A replacement stove could run about 2 grand complate with chimney and installation. But the new ones are EPA approved and will last a long time. And use a LOT LESS wood!

Where in North Jersey are you moving? I grew up in Northwest Jersey in a little township of Roxbury.

 

[wg_bent]

Personally, I think Elk was being polite and easy on you.

That sounds like you can not put an insert into that fireplace. The firebox of a fireplace needs to be intact, and a metal one is probably a prefab that is not in good enough shape to install an insert into. As far as the Stove, that probably needs to be replaced, and I'd recommend a Harman or Vermont Castings with a n 8" chimney as those can be used with a screen in place so they work like a fireplace. I think SOME Jotul's can do that also.

It all depends on how much you want to spend on a new fireplace, but if you do replace it, look for an EPA approved unit not low grade contractor model. You might look at putting a gas unit in to replace the fireplace and a nice Cast iron stove to replace the stove.

Keep in touch... let us know what you are looking into and I"m sure you'll get more input than you can read.

 

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

Understand the Stove issue (Get new Stove and chimney set up). As to the fireplace issue...

If firebox is workable Inserts? If Firebox is in failure, what does that entail? What actually gets replaced?

 

[webbie]

Here is a company that specializes in specially designed kits to replace rusted out fireboxes like this.
The Company is called Bellfires and the web address is: http://bellfiresusa.com/fireplaces/model_BR.htm

Not sure if it will work in your case, but you can check it out.

The other option is to install a fireplace insert with a full chimney reline. In this case nothing is replaced or covered over, but you install another unit inside and therefore bypass the problem areas.

 

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

I have heard about $2K for stove and chimney assemble with setup. What can I expect for a wood fireplace insert with the SS up the chimney? I am not looking for a fancy unit, I would say the average, its more for watching then for heating.

 

[DriftWood]

This is what I did with a 60 year old steel fire box in a masonry chimney all built in 1944.

HearthStone Heritage break in fire!!
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/3106/

How old is the house?

Looking at your chimney cap on the masonry chimney. Is there one top covering both tile vents? If so you are at risk of CO or smoke getting into your house, as one vents gas the other could suck in cold air and gases back into your home.

 

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

I believe that there are two separate caps, I will Check again. The House was built 1948. The set up you just described...how much would that run about?

 

[DriftWood]

I believe that there are two separate caps, I will Check again. The House was built 1948. The set up you just described...how much would that run about?

These are just some prices off the web shipping is extra. People do buy off ebaY, Home Depo, Lowes and from local dealers as I did. Installation is either DIY or installer, prices very a lot.

The Heritage Heritage I, Seafoam Porcelain is a top of the pile woodstove, many other less expensive stoves will do the same job. Steel, cast iron or soapstone all have there good and bad points. Good Luck, have fun shopping for two stoves!

The Woodstock Fireview Wood Stove Regular Price: $2,679.00 Sale Price: $2,079.00 save 22e Biggest Sales Event in 29 Years! February 9th -24th, 2007
https://store.woodstove.com/xcart/home.php?cat=302

The Heritage Heritage I, Seafoam Porcelain / Soapstone wood stove $2695
(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hsherit.htm)

6" HomeSaver Pro Chimney Reline Kit For Rear Exhaust Inserts and Freestanding Woodstoves $771.24 (broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=592&idproduct=6435)

Insulation Kit For 6"x25' HomeSaver-Pro Liner $423.65
(broken link removed to http://www.hartshearth.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=468&idproduct=3526)

You would need to extend your hearth and cover it to meet r value for the stove or insert you choose. Price depends on materials

I would only look at modern stoves, EPA passed and UL Listed; catalitic converter or secondary burn wood burning appliances. Look for dealers in your area to see what you want. Insert or free standing stove? Your choice. When planning research here most stove models have owners how can answer questions. I am a soapstone free standing guy.

 

[DriftWood]

I believe that there are two separate caps, I will Check again. The House was built 1948. The set up you just described...how much would that run about?

Two caps at the same height that close could still be a problem.

 

[restorer]

Hey, don't want to put a damper on things, but....(pun not intended, but accepted) What has caused all the rust? I would contact a professional house inspector and find out what's going on. A few things that leap to mind are a poorly performing HVAC system. Major roof or water leaks, poorly maintained and poorly used burning appliances, defective exhaust for burning appliances. Sometimes utility companies will do the inspection for you, or state and local agencies.

Get the bottom line first, the engineer will give an assessment of the appliances and their functionality and give you some idea of your options. All that rust and problems sounds like more than cosmetic problems. Had a bad water heater in our 6,000 sf store that etched the aluminium door frames. That was a $100 fix for the exhaust and 100 hours labor to sand seal and paint the door damage.

 

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

The previous owners kept poor conditions. The roof does not leak, atleast now, and I am sure they were not the cleaning type (The duct work for the house I would not venture to guess when it was cleaned last). My home inspector basically said that the stove was worthless and the chimney was a waste. For the FIREPLACE he said the damper was missing (actually does not appear to have any type of switch or pull chain). He said the Firebox was serverly rusted. The house has also been locked up for almost two years unused.

I am going to look into the links given by some of you and see what I get from it. I am now thinking that I am going to buy a Stove insert for the Fireplace (the gas or wood or pellet questions arises), It sounds like this is the easiest to get done. Maybe I am over simplifing but it is just slipping the unit in the old fireplace and haveing the SS chimney run up the old one. Perhaps I can handle the two flue same height problem maybe with this set up aswell.

After I am enjoying the New Insert, I then can look into the free standing stove. But I do have to decide how I want to handle the current chimney for the stove problem. Being it is shot, I should remove it. But I will be putting another there in the future, How should I handle this? Or with new stove can I have it go out the wall rather then the ceiling? Is there some type of set up that is best?

Thank you all for your help here.

 

[Gooserider]

The previous owners kept poor conditions. The roof does not leak, atleast now, and I am sure they were not the cleaning type (The duct work for the house I would not venture to guess when it was cleaned last). My home inspector basically said that the stove was worthless and the chimney was a waste. For the FIREPLACE he said the damper was missing (actually does not appear to have any type of switch or pull chain). He said the Firebox was serverly rusted. The house has also been locked up for almost two years unused.

I am going to look into the links given by some of you and see what I get from it. I am now thinking that I am going to buy a Stove insert for the Fireplace (the gas or wood or pellet questions arises), It sounds like this is the easiest to get done. Maybe I am over simplifing but it is just slipping the unit in the old fireplace and haveing the SS chimney run up the old one. Perhaps I can handle the two flue same height problem maybe with this set up aswell.

After I am enjoying the New Insert, I then can look into the free standing stove. But I do have to decide how I want to handle the current chimney for the stove problem. Being it is shot, I should remove it. But I will be putting another there in the future, How should I handle this? Or with new stove can I have it go out the wall rather then the ceiling? Is there some type of set up that is best?

Thank you all for your help here.

Tackling one appliance at the time seems wisest. I would look at just what sort of chimney you have now, and what it will take to make it work. There are actually two different parts to think about, one is the actual outer chimney structure, the other is the flue inside the chimney that the smoke will go through...

Is it a real masonry chimney? Or is it some sort of prefab shell? If it is a real chimney, what are the liners made out of, what size are they, and what kind of shape are they in? Does the chimney structure have proper clearances? Do you have a "straight shot" up the chimney from the firebox, or are their bends involved? How big is the damper opening at the top of the fire box? If there are two flues in the chimney, what does the other flue service? What kind of shape is the second flue in? Is the existing firebox a ZC (zero clearance) box, or a metal "heating fireplace" such as those made by Heatilator for many years?

IF it is a "real" chimney, with clay liners and not to many bends on the way up, it won't be that hard to drop an insulated stainless liner down the chimney which can hook up to an insert with minimal problems. If it is a ZC firebox, then it's a bit trickier as you have to use an insert that is tested and approved for use in a ZC fireplace.

In general, you want to keep as much of your chimney inside the house as you can. It is posible to run a chimney (masonry or prefab metal) up an outside wall, but those installs tend to have far more problems with draft, creosote buildup, etc. By keeping the chimney inside, you get more efficient heating, better draft, and less creosote because a warm chimney works better and an inside chimney stays warmer.

I would probably start by getting a good chimney sweep or stove shop in for a consult to evaluate just what you have and give you a better idea of your options than we can give from a distance.

It might also be easier to start with the free standing stove. If you replace it with a pellet stove, the install is very easy since a pellet stove can vent through the wall. If you put in a wood stove, then you would probably want to replace your existing stack setup with a Class A prefab chimney, but that should be fairly straightforward as you will already have the holes and such from the existing setup so it should be a fairly easy swap. Likewise you might need to do some modifications on the hearth and walls to make sure whatever you get for a new stove meets clearance and code requirements, but it is unlikely to need much since a new stove probably won't need much different in that regard than the existing unit. - You might not need to make any hearth modifications at all.

Gooserider

 

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

It is a real chimney, there is no damper, I have to see what zero clearance is. Your right the stove would be easiest, but the fireplace is the main living room. I will call the sweep and see what the brings. I still do not even own this house yet, still waiting to do septic test. But when I have the green light, I think that I will hit the ground running. Thanks for the advice. Is the installation of one of these systems a difficult thing? I am rather handy and not afraid of heights.

 

[Gooserider]

It is a real chimney, there is no damper, I have to see what zero clearance is. Your right the stove would be easiest, but the fireplace is the main living room. I will call the sweep and see what the brings. I still do not even own this house yet, still waiting to do septic test. But when I have the green light, I think that I will hit the ground running. Thanks for the advice. Is the installation of one of these systems a difficult thing? I am rather handy and not afraid of heights.

The first thing you need to do is figure out whether you have a "Heatform" type fireplace (see this link for a Wiki article describing them.) or a "Zero Clearance" fireplace. We don't seem to have an Wiki article on ZC's yet unfortuneately, (and I don't feel qualified to write one) but in short a ZC box is a super cheap pre-fab fireplace and chimney setup that some builders use to make a fireplace in a house without going to the trouble and expense of building a masonry chimney and firebox. They call it a ZC because the design allows them to build the wooden house structure right next to the box, without the usuall required clearances to combustibles. This causes problems later as attempting to install something later will have problems because you have wooden structural parts to close for safety. This article gives a very short description of the problems a ZC causes.

Hopefully it's a Heatform, as those give you more options, since they basically can be treated the same way as a masonry fireplace. That you have a masonry chimney is a good sign.

As to the amount of work, you can look around the forums, you will find lots of threads where people describe their installs, which will give you a pretty good idea.

You have two different types of install setups, by chance each will involve a different type of technology. In both cases you will need to decide just what you want for a unit, as this will impact some of the other work.

Having decided what make and model of stove / insert you will install, the first step in both cases will be to evaluate the existing locations for clearances to combustibles, and what sort of floor and/or wall protection you might need to add or modify. Since you are replacing existing units it is likely you might not need to do much, although its fairly common that people putting in inserts will need to extend the hearth in front of the fireplace to get the required 16-18" clearances (and more is better!) as inserts often stick out from the existing fireplace far enough to need more space in front.

Next you will need to fix the flue for each stove. For the insert in the fireplace, it sounds like you will need an insulated stainless liner, either 6 or 8" depending on what your insert requires. (You may be limited by the size of the existing flue tiles) These normally get dropped down through the chimney and will connect into the stove or insert you will install. You will also need a bottom blockoff plate, and there will be things needed to seal the flue at the top of the chimney, a cap to put on and some other things, the details will vary. The hard part is to get the liner in the chimney, which is basically a "snake wrestling" match as you work to guide the somewhat fragile, only sort of flexible, liner tube into the chimney. Most folks seem to have an insert and liner install as a good days work, but not that bad unless there are problems.

The other setup will involve removing the existing prefab chimney setup, and putting in a new one. As I understand it, this is pretty much just basic carpentry and screwing the parts together, not really harder or more complex than any other job of that sort. In both cases, If you are handy and don't mind roof work, it shouldn't be that much of a problem, we have lots of successful DIY installs on the board. You will probably find a few places where having a few buddies to lend a hand will really help out - a lot of the stuff is heavy or awkward to move single handedly, not the least of which are the stoves themselves.

Gooserider

 

[Hogwildz]

Your fireplace setup looks almost exactly like mine. Mine is an old 1960's Heatilator. Those 4 vents give it away.
Is the steel in the firebox thick as in 3/16"-1/4"? or thinner? Check in an unrusted spot..
If it is a Heatilator, you can put an insert & reline the masonry chimney with a full stainless steel liner.

To answer your question on the stove and changing the stack from going through roof to going through wall. I wouldn't do that, and this is why..........
A straight up shot will give optimal draft. Elbowing it through a wall will hamper draft, and the elbows are prone to creosote buildup.
The holes are all cut for your new straight up piping. No need to patch ceiling, roof etc. No need to cut new hole in wall.
Basically your all set, why make more work for a possibly less than optimal set up?

 

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

Moving along with my inspections for getting the house. The four vents are purely gravity drawn, there is no blower. I am going tomorrow for somethings and I am going to look into the Chimney better. I will also check the firebox. I look forward to some "snake wrestling".

 

[Gooserider]

Not all Heatilators had blowers... We had a summer cottage when I was growing up that had a heatilator fireplace in it. That unit didn't have any vents on the front, just an inlet near the floor on each side and an outlet near the ceiling. Purely convection / gravity driven.

That it rusted out turned out to be a really good thing as we ended up doing an install of a what I think was a Federal Airtight Consolidated Dutchwest Model FA264 Large Wood/Coal stove - Now VC Dutchwest, and the predecessor to their Dutchwest stoves - I'm pretty sure Elk wouldn't have approved as we didn't pull papers and pushed a couple issues on code, but as we used it, the install was safe. (The front depth on the Hearth was only about a foot, but we NEVER used the front doors, so I'm not sure why else we would have needed the additional clearance.... )

However, that stove was such a major improvement in the amount of heat we had in the cottage it was like a whole different building!

Gooserider

 

[Hogwildz]

Moving along with my inspections for getting the house. The four vents are purely gravity drawn, there is no blower. I am going tomorrow for somethings and I am going to look into the Chimney better. I will also check the firebox. I look forward to some "snake wrestling".

I agree with Goose, my healitaltor was set up exactly as yours, same vent placement and all. No blower. The cooler room air came from near the floor into the bottom vents, wenht along side the heatilator and out the top vents. Mine were closed off when I bought the place. I popped one open to see the path and what it was & did.

 

[Rubbing Two Sticks]

I am asking for credit at closing for the fireplace. On the assumtion that I am doing a wood insert with a SS up the chimney, is $2000 reasonable for a setup? I would love to do the work myself but want to give the home owner the professional install price. Any input would be helpful.

 

[Gooserider]

I am asking for credit at closing for the fireplace. On the assumtion that I am doing a wood insert with a SS up the chimney, is $2000 reasonable for a setup? I would love to do the work myself but want to give the home owner the professional install price. Any input would be helpful.

Might be a bit on the low side, especially as an asking price. SS liners with insulation run well over $6-700 plus installation, and $1000 is a good price for an insert. I'd probably ask $3K and let them talk you down, but not go under $2K, preferably $2500. (Note that this is still likely WAY less than a replacement of the entire structure would cost...) Might be worth talking to a local stove shop or two and getting local prices so that you can quote something when negotiating.

Gooserider

 

[Hogwildz]

I am asking for credit at closing for the fireplace. On the assumtion that I am doing a wood insert with a SS up the chimney, is $2000 reasonable for a setup? I would love to do the work myself but want to give the home owner the professional install price. Any input would be helpful.

Might be a bit on the low side, especially as an asking price. SS liners with insulation run well over $6-700 plus installation, and $1000 is a good price for an insert. I'd probably ask $3K and let them talk you down, but not go under $2K, preferably $2500. (Note that this is still likely WAY less than a replacement of the entire structure would cost...) Might be worth talking to a local stove shop or two and getting local prices so that you can quote something when negotiating.

Gooserider

Goos is exactly right. Get a few quotes from stove shops for insert/liner install.
Also get a couple quotes for chimney repairs to the existing. That way you can show them the difference.
I installed my Summit & liner Myself, just about $3,500.00
So depending on what kind of liner & insert you want. The range could be $3,000.00- $4,500.00 installed by dealer IMHO.