I am considering this unit to heat my home with in floor radiant heat aprox.1500 square feet. Also my40 x 60 pole barn that is well insulated with in floor heat as well. the house is 300' from the barn I would like to put the unit back by the barn rather than by the house.The dealer is telling me that the heat loss is about one degree per 100' is this accurate? Thank you for this great site.
Central Boiler 5036
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Welcome to the Boiler Room, SCHNEF.
I'm sure somebody will come up with some hard numbers for you to chew on, or at least tell you how to get to the hard numbers. My relatively uninformed impression is that pump size starts to become a factor with long distances like that, so there may be more to your decision than simply heat loss in the piping. Let's see what they say.
I'm sure somebody will come up with some hard numbers for you to chew on, or at least tell you how to get to the hard numbers. My relatively uninformed impression is that pump size starts to become a factor with long distances like that, so there may be more to your decision than simply heat loss in the piping. Let's see what they say.
The heat loss thru the piping is pretty minimal, I wouldn't even worry about it.
I would go with a larger circulator. The 009 is meant for high head pressure, low gpm
applications, drain down solar systems come to mind. You should go w/ a 0011 as a minimum.
I hate to wreck your dream but you really should consider a gasification boiler in lieu of a central.
I've got a central & whatever they estimate your wood consumption at, double it.
I would go with a larger circulator. The 009 is meant for high head pressure, low gpm
applications, drain down solar systems come to mind. You should go w/ a 0011 as a minimum.
I hate to wreck your dream but you really should consider a gasification boiler in lieu of a central.
I've got a central & whatever they estimate your wood consumption at, double it.
Thank you for the info. I will check into a gasification boiler. I am like everyone else that is tired of the propane and I live on 160 acres of timber so I want to start using the wood, I did heat with a Vermont casting wood stove but since then I have built my barn and would like to heat it all with one source. Thank you all.
rI have never measured the heat loss on CB's ThermaPex, but when I hear horroe stories about site-made pipe systems where the insulation has gotten wet, I am glad I went with the Therma Pex. Um . . . they did tell you how much a run of 300' is gonna cost, yes? :wow:
But on a more fundamental note . . . this late in the season . . . do your research on this unit versus a gasification hydronic unit. Talk with people that have heated the same space with both (leaves me out) to get an idea which they prefer and the approximate difference in wood consumption.
Jimbo
But on a more fundamental note . . . this late in the season . . . do your research on this unit versus a gasification hydronic unit. Talk with people that have heated the same space with both (leaves me out) to get an idea which they prefer and the approximate difference in wood consumption.
Jimbo
A gasification boiler costs more upfront, but you'll burn half as much wood and do it with no smoke.
The only stipulation is that you need dry wood. With 160 acres to work with, you can get a year or two ahead and never have to worry about that part of it.
Bear in mind that while burning twice as much wood is not a problem if you have an unlimited source of fuel (which you do), but it does mean twice the work cutting, hauling, splitting, loading and burning. That adds up over time. Whether or not that is a factor in your case is something only you can decide.
If you can get the boiler closer to your house you'll save money on the piping, which can get pricey when you factor in the insulation and waterproofing. With no smoke, you might want to consider that as well.
The only stipulation is that you need dry wood. With 160 acres to work with, you can get a year or two ahead and never have to worry about that part of it.
Bear in mind that while burning twice as much wood is not a problem if you have an unlimited source of fuel (which you do), but it does mean twice the work cutting, hauling, splitting, loading and burning. That adds up over time. Whether or not that is a factor in your case is something only you can decide.
If you can get the boiler closer to your house you'll save money on the piping, which can get pricey when you factor in the insulation and waterproofing. With no smoke, you might want to consider that as well.
I was in a similar situation as you were, at the time I had not heard of wood gasification boilers, in the end still if I had new I still probably would have gone with a 6048 CB. Yes they smoke, but so does my maple syrup operation. One big selling point of the CB is that you do need to split your wood and you can been softwood. We have alot of old dying softwood so we burn it and it cleans up the woods. Cant do that in a gasification boiler. Yeah, they burn some wood 10-12 cords but I would go thru that amount in my woodstove if I decided to go strictly with wood anyway.
I purchased my CB Jaunary 2006 as a replacement for a homebuilt OWB and I like it. I've purchased a EKO 60 and am awaiting spring to build a 24 x 32 pole barn with a boiler room in it to replace the CB. The reason I'm switching is that I live in a small village and want to try and go more smoke free. I'm happy with the OWB but my father has a EKO and I like the way its working so I wish I would have gone that route first but I had no idea that gasifier were out there. At the time the OWB was the way to burn wood around here. I'll second the thought that you have time now to think about the way you want to go and decide which is best for you. My thoughts on the burning of unsplit wood is that yes it is easier if you don't have to split the wood, but I hurt my shoulder last year and couldn't lift the larger pieces and it was a pain to sort the pile looking for the smaller stuff to load while healing, so I split everything for this year. Also I have really seen a HUGH difference in burning smaller, dryer pieces of wood as my OWB is producing faster(hotter) and much cleaner burns. If you want clean and hot burns then you have to burn dyer wood so you might as well go the gasifier route as you'll burn less and I think looking at both units, the gasifier will last allot longer.
The gentleman that is my CB dealer tells me he burns about 5 cords a year and with that amount he is burning year around . I do realize living as far south as we do, are average lows are around 30 degrees. and like you I have never cut a green tree. I can heat mainly with dead standing hardwood. cutting and stacking at least a year in advance
Uh . . .? Gentleman or not, he's STILL a salesman. The fact that he burns 5 cord a year is almost meaningless. . . unless you are also buying his house, occupying it with the same water usage/thermostat settings. If I were you, I MIGHT try to compare his fossil fuel usage before the CB with your current fuel usage. But this is still inexact. And relies on his communication of prior fuel usage. Plus you would need to factor in the quality of the wood. I would bet that EVERY new wood user OVERESTIMATES the quality and quantity of his wood. . .
Agree with BTU. It has been posted 9999999999 times, but if you want to see what your likely to burn. Do a heat calc. Work backwards from the amount of fuel you burn now. And, look at the furnace you have now. I like rough and round numbers as much as the next guy. You do those three steps and you'll know more about your needs than the salesman.
I have not seen/read people say gasifiers will last longer. Is their an estimate for length of life you have seen?
ABGWD4U said:
This is just a personal observation from using a homebuilt unit and the CB and looking at the gasifier. OWB surrounded by water so it can't burn hot equals creosote in firechamber plus any moisture equals trouble. I'm certainly not an engineer and can prove none of this.
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you mean it has a effect on longevity of the unit?[/quote]
I would think cleaner would last longer. I'm not sure but is this the reason some manufacturers went to stainless?
you mean it has a effect on longevity of the unit?[/quote]
I would think cleaner would last longer. I'm not sure but is this the reason some manufacturers went to stainless?
Their a many reasons to believe that creo is caustic. But, the gassifiers have their own set of problems outside of creo that could shorten their life. Thats why I thought it was interesting you thought that gassers had a naturally longer life
Tarm comes with a 20-year warranty, so it doesn't sound like an unreasonable expectation. Most OWBs should last 10 years or longer--depending on how they're operated and maintained. I suspect you'll get more out of a gasifier vessel if you treat it right. More out of any boiler, for that matter. I think return water temp protection and (hard) firing practices are critical.
I just retired a Royall 6150 (sold it to another guy, actually) that was built in the late '70s. I bought it used (abused), abused it myself for 4 heating seasons and it was still going strong. By "abuse" I mean burning green wood, no return temp protection, overfired it on numerous occasions and ran it without a chimney cap for 2 seasons.
When I bought it and cleaned it out, I found an old wheel cylinder from a set of drum brakes in the firebox. Do you think the previous owner might have been burning garbage?
I just retired a Royall 6150 (sold it to another guy, actually) that was built in the late '70s. I bought it used (abused), abused it myself for 4 heating seasons and it was still going strong. By "abuse" I mean burning green wood, no return temp protection, overfired it on numerous occasions and ran it without a chimney cap for 2 seasons.
When I bought it and cleaned it out, I found an old wheel cylinder from a set of drum brakes in the firebox. Do you think the previous owner might have been burning garbage?
No I imagine for the "tarm" design it is reasonable, but I am not certain all gasification design types are "long" lasting. I think the royall line of boilers design makes it last long.
I really expected different designs to have different expected life spans.
I guess what I was trepidacious about the generialzation. I was wondering if he SDrobertson had seen some testing or read something somewhere. Personally I have not see a great number of OWB's or gassers, or even pex in the field for over 10 years.
I just had a conversations with a plumber about pex life. All the studies say 50 years. But, I haven't seen it for more than 10.
I am an external pessimist with equipment. It probably comes from the expereience with shady salesmen
I guess what I was trepidacious about the generialzation. I was wondering if he SDrobertson had seen some testing or read something somewhere. Personally I have not see a great number of OWB or gassers, or even pex in the field for over 10 years.
As I stated in an earlier post on this subject, I have no experience except that I had a homemade OWB and now the CB that I am using. I know the CB has a 25 yr warranty and should last a while. My statement was in reference more to the homemade OWB that lasted only 4 years with a failure in the steel due to moisture and creosote due to a design flaw.
As I stated in an earlier post on this subject, I have no experience except that I had a homemade OWB and now the CB that I am using. I know the CB has a 25 yr warranty and should last a while. My statement was in reference more to the homemade OWB that lasted only 4 years with a failure in the steel due to moisture and creosote due to a design flaw.
I can assure folks that a lot of earlier OWB designs developed leaks very early in their life - specifically, many earlier models of Taylor - the biggest brand back then, would leak at about 5 years. When you consider that they are not pressurized, this starts to look even worse.
I am also a pessimist about boiler life until proven. My theory is this - that since the original (and still some models) were no poorly thought out and engineered, why would we assume that they would last? In other words, many of these were designed without the actual benefits of a real engineer, let alone a sophisticated R&D;dept.
That said, it makes some sense that Central Boilers have evolved to be fairly long lasting...just a guess, but because they have a lot of money and reputation at stake, I can't imagine them being short lived. But that is just a guess.
I am also a pessimist about boiler life until proven. My theory is this - that since the original (and still some models) were no poorly thought out and engineered, why would we assume that they would last? In other words, many of these were designed without the actual benefits of a real engineer, let alone a sophisticated R&D;dept.
That said, it makes some sense that Central Boilers have evolved to be fairly long lasting...just a guess, but because they have a lot of money and reputation at stake, I can't imagine them being short lived. But that is just a guess.
Not Knowing a whole lot about these boiler's other than different literature from most of the OWB manufacturer's..The CB at least has a 25 year warranty, I do realize that a big portion of that is prorated but that tells me that they have to have some confidence in the product that they are putting on the market. the other thing that I would really like to know is what type and how dry is the wood people are burning. I know I am fortunate to pick and chose but I usually burn nothing more than red, white and black oak and hickory and some hard maple all seasoned for at least a year.
A gentleman around here was the first to purchase a OWB, and CB model 5036. That was 15 years ago. This person has burned everything and anything in it (I do not condone what he has burned) and it is still using it strong in a very harsh climate and long heating season (Mountains of Maine). I spoke to him last week and he has had zero problems with the unit. He doesnt do any preventative maintenance. The man has absolutley abused his boiler and its still going.
My dad bought a Heatmor about 12 years ago. It sprung a leak after about a year and a half (he uses it in the summer for DHW). They replaced the firebox with stainless steel. It's been holding water ever since. A dealer I spoke to said he should expect to get about 15 years out of it. Every brand is different, and as I said earlier, it depends on how you use and maintain it, as well.
Being unpressurized, I would expect OWBs to fail before pressurized steel boilers, but since the corrosion seems to work from inside the firebox out into the water jacket, maybe that's not the case. I know Garns, which are open as well, are supposed have annual water quality tests done. Probably not a bad idea with OWBs, too.
Being unpressurized, I would expect OWBs to fail before pressurized steel boilers, but since the corrosion seems to work from inside the firebox out into the water jacket, maybe that's not the case. I know Garns, which are open as well, are supposed have annual water quality tests done. Probably not a bad idea with OWBs, too.
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