chainsaw twists clockwise as its cutting thru log - followup bar questions

[Apprentice_GM]

First post here, so let me first of all thank every contributor for the enormous amount of excellent information available, I have been reading my way through a few hundred posts these last 2 weeks and gained some valuable tips. I initially found this site searching for Holz Hausen pics having learnt to build one from thechimneysweep.ca but obviously there is so much more going on here in the forums!

I have a Husky 353 chainsaw with 18" bar and recently broke a chain and bought a new one. The old one was the factory fitted (husky?) chain, the new one is a Stihl Oilomatic3 <edited as originally I thought it was Oregon> chain from my local dealer. I have noticed the new chain pulls me thru a log and twists to the left, or twists the saw clockwise as it cuts, compared to the old one. Such that if I was cutting thru a 12" log it would be 10 to 15 degrees away from vertical by the finish - halfway to "one oclock" on an hour hand.

Can anyone tell me why, and hopefully how to fix it? I wouldn't call myself a pro lumberjack by any stretch, but I've felled, limbed and bucked about 20 small trees lately (estimate 8 to 10 cords) and I certainly do start my cuts vertically, and I didn't have this problem with the old chain. I was wondering if the chain was the wrong type for the saw, or perhaps some sort of anti-kickback model and that's one of the disadvantages of them.

Also, whilst on the topic, I notice the new chain gets blunt a lot quicker than the old chain. A lot of our wood (I'm from Oz) is pretty hard, for example ironbark is well named, it's organic steel, rates about 73 pounds per cubic foot density or 14+ on a hardness scale (I don't know how hard North American woods are having never sawed them but I see from this site's reference article Hickory tops the list at 50 pounds per cubic foot, not sure if that translates to hardness, but if it does then our eucalypts like ironbark are around 50% harder and heavier). Is there harder steel chain eg perhaps Stihl chain the Husky may have used, that I can get instead that will hold sharpness longer? I saw a reference to this possibility in a recent Eric Johnson post of his visit to the Oregon Saw Chain company.

 

[Backroads]

Why did the chain break? Did by chance you damage the bar or not rotate the bar on a regular basis? If the bar is tweeked that could explain it possibly.

 

[N/A N/A]

First off, welcome to the forum! There are a few reasons why your saw may be cutting this way. It could be anything from a worn out drive drum to an improperly sharpened chain. If your bar is warn out it could also cause this I suppose. When you broke your last chain, did you pinch the bar and or what happened to cause the chain to break? And was the saw cutting correctly prior to replacing the chain?

 

[Apprentice_GM]

Why did the chain break? Did by chance you damage the bar or not rotate the bar on a regular basis? If the bar is tweeked that could explain it possibly.

Ahhh, that's an excellent question. I don't know is the short answer . . . I was rotating the bar with every chain sharpen on the old chain. The chain was getting worn, when I got the last (shop) sharpen done I was told it would be the last sharpen (as it turned out they were correct ) but it wasn't to the wear mark on the tooth yet.

I have been sharpening my new chain by hand file, just touching up the teeth every tank or so, but it was pulling that way from new. I've had a look at the bar and to the naked eye it looks fine. Should I pull it off and run a straight edge over it?

 

[Apprentice_GM]

First off, welcome to the forum! There are a few reasons why your saw may be cutting this way. It could be anything from a worn out drive drum to an improperly sharpened chain. If your bar is warn out it could also cause this I suppose. When you broke your last chain, did you pinch the bar and or what happened to cause the chain to break? And was the saw cutting correctly prior to replacing the chain?

Thanks - it's great to be here

I didn't pinch the bar when it broke, in fact I was sawing through a pretty small log using the teeth at the base to hold it, so cutting with the underside of bar and back half (nearest me / nearest motor) and it was well chocked and free falling so no chance of pinch.

Should I replace the bar with every chain? Or replace the drive drum with every chain? Or the toothed wheel on the bar?

The tilting pull happened from new chain, immediately, so can't have been a bad sharpen, and it wasn't happening with the old chain even in the minutes before breakage.

I don't know what caused my old chain to break, I just assumed with wear they eventually broke. I certainly got full life usage out of that chain, I reckon it started with 8mm of tooth to the wear line and finished with less than 1 mm to the wear line

Maybe I keep my chain too tight? I dislike the chain being too loose, I tighten it until I can - just - rotate chain by hand, and when lifting the chain the bits that are supposed to stay in the bar groove don't come out far enough to see daylight between them and bar.

 

[N/A N/A]

First off, welcome to the forum! There are a few reasons why your saw may be cutting this way. It could be anything from a worn out drive drum to an improperly sharpened chain. If your bar is warn out it could also cause this I suppose. When you broke your last chain, did you pinch the bar and or what happened to cause the chain to break? And was the saw cutting correctly prior to replacing the chain?

Thanks - it's great to be here

I didn't pinch the bar when it broke, in fact I was sawing through a pretty small log using the teeth at the base to hold it, so cutting with the underside of bar and back half (nearest me / nearest motor) and it was well chocked and free falling so no chance of pinch.

Should I replace the bar with every chain? Or replace the drive drum with every chain? Or the toothed wheel on the bar?

The tilting pull happened from new chain, immediately, so can't have been a bad sharpen, and it wasn't happening with the old chain even in the minutes before breakage.

I don't know what caused my old chain to break, I just assumed with wear they eventually broke. I certainly got full life usage out of that chain, I reckon it started with 8mm of tooth to the wear line and finished with less than 1 mm to the wear line

Maybe I keep my chain too tight? I dislike the chain being too loose, I tighten it until I can - just - rotate chain by hand, and when lifting the chain the bits that are supposed to stay in the bar groove don't come out far enough to see daylight between them and bar.

First off let me say this, I am no pro but we do have some well schooled guys on here that should be checking in any time now. When you tighten your chain, you should leave a little slack in it. You should be able to pull on the top of the chain and not be able to pull the drive teeth out of the bar but have it loose enough that when you let it go it should snap back into the bar with no problem. You dont want to crank it down as this causes excessive wear on the bar and drive drum. It also should be noted to use proper bar and chain oil. The rule of thumb that I was always told, is that you should at least have you drive drum looked at after every full use of two chains. In another words, after you have gone through the life span of two chains have your drum inspected. In my experience it will need replaced. If you rotate your bar, it should last you a long time under normal cutting circumstances.

 

[N/A N/A]

I should add this, after reading your post again, you are tighten your chain a bit to much. There should be slight slack in it as stated in my last post. If you tighten your chain that tight, I would look at your drum and I would bet that is where your problem is. Check this link out and watch the videos for helpful tips on operating a chain saw.

http://www.stihlusa.com/information/info_lit_video.html#realvid

 

[savageactor7]

Hummm from your description it sounds like the chain is to sharp on left side. But you say this is a brand new out of the box chain HUH!

Just in case you really meant ... 'it was new in the morning and after a couple hours use it started cutting to the left' just sharpen the right side teeth. Maybe all ya have to do is draw the file once across...or do 3 strokes on the right and one on the left side. If a chain is cutting down and to the left it means the left side is sharper than the right.

Then again on a used old but still serviceable chain even if both sides are correctly sharped one side could be worn back farther than the other so as the chain takes its bite the higher side of the chain will take the lead and cut either to the L or R.

The operators manual will point you in the direction of efficient operation and correct chain tension. Good luck.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

If you're just touching up teeth and not taking care of the depth settings- it could cause this. I solved the same issue a few years back just by taking down the depth.

 

[Apprentice_GM]

If you're just touching up teeth and not taking care of the depth settings- it could cause this. I solved the same issue a few years back just by taking down the depth.

That might be the case for older chain, but it shouldn't be the cause with brand new chain (should it?) which is when mine started.

Same for left side vs right side sharpness, it is a good explanation and one I will remember for an older chain, but it shouldn't be the case with brand new quality chain (should it?).

Also from an earlier post, I watched the linked Stihl video (very helpful, thanks) and I was tensioning, not over tensioning, my chain correctly all the time. I'm just picky about it, not letting it run loose like some others do around here (my neighbours, not this forum).

I think the best explanation that I will check out is a worn drive drum, or damaged bar I can't see with naked eye, needing a straight edge and removal from saw. Thanks all for your feedback though, much appreciated!

 

[Adios Pantalones]

If it started right away (fresh chain), then you're right.

Reports here are that Stihl chain seems to hold an edge longer than many others (including Oregon). Also- if you're using a grinder, watch out for heating on the chain which can 'f up the temper.

I hope to visit Australia some day and tour a few wood-fired potteries. I hear about ironbark, stringybark, etc. etc. Some of those guys burn 5 cord in a few days. Awesome.

 

[kevin j]

new out of the box could still be sharpened unequal, or have depth gauges wrong, unlikely but I would check.

Worn sprocket rim (or drum, if you have a spur type drive) shouldn't cause this.

mostly likely bar damage, but if it happened just at chain change, maybe not likely either. Put a different old chain back on and try it. If cuts ok, not the bar.

Is the new chain the right one? Pitch of course must be right or you would know that in rotating it. But how about thickness gauge? if the bar groove is say .063 or .058 and the new chain is .050, it can flop side to side in the groove, and cut crooked.

k

 

[Jack33]

Either your bar is damaged, the chain is the wrong gauge, or the cutters are not even left to right.

Inspect the bar rails for uneven wear and clean them up. Check the gauge on your new chain, it should be .050". What is the part number on the Oregon box? It is doubtful that the cutters were that far off from the factory, but anything is possible. Even less likely given the fact that it is dulling quickly.

All Husqvarna chain and bars are made by Oregon. There are different series chains so which did you get? The best/hardest (non-carbide) chain avaible is Stihl RSC.

 

[savageactor7]

Well I can't believe it's the bar and Apprentice_GM couldn't eyeball the problem...to eliminate the bar just flip it to see if the chain cuts to the right. And while you have the bar off take a flat file to it and trim up any burrs.

 

[Apprentice_GM]

OK, I have done some of what was suggested . . . first off, I am a bit embarrassed, but the chain is not oregon, it's Stihl. When I bought it I brought my old chain to the dealer and told him my model of chainsaw (Husqvana 353) and he looked up an Oregon Chain Catalog in front of me, then went and got the chain, I just grabbed the box with a few other bits and pieces and went home and fitted the chain, which is why I thought it was Oregon. Sorry

So, for what it's worth, the chain is a Stihl Oilomatic3 .325 with "5" on the guide/bar slot "tooth". I'm not sure how much attention to pay to the box it came in, as the box has listed 40cm/ 16inch for length of chain, and my husky saw has an 18" bar (it says on the bar and I measured it so I'm sure of that!). However, in case the rest of the box info is correct - I wouldn't know either way - the numbers from left to right are:
3610 000 0055 61 PMMC3 55
and under that:
40cm 16In | 55 | 9,32mm 3/8" P | 1,1mm ,043 In |

The first is clearly bar length and has a pretty pic of a bar, the 2nd has a pic of the bar guide tooth (sorry not sure of technical term, the one on the inside of chain that runs inside the bar slot) and the third is clearly 0.325" which matches the chain marking and has a pic showing it's the length between rivet in front of guide height and rivet below cutting tooth, whilst the 4th has a pic of thickness, but exactly what I can't be sure, perhaps thickness of bar slot tooth?

I inspected the bar and it had a small burr on the top near tooth wheel at end of bar. I find it hard to believe it could do anything, as I never cut with that part of the bar - it's prime kickback territory - but I filed it and flipped the bar and re-assembled after a good clean.

Whilst cleaning, I noticed something else - the inside of the bar (left side as you hold the saw) was worn with the "Husqvana" logo almost gone whereas the outside has the Husqvana logo in very good condition. To match, the inside rivets and chain in general was very clean, with teeth quite polished, whereas the outside was quite dirty with bits of gunk on the teeth and the rivets and chain covered in gunk. So clearly, the inside is getting wear or rubbing on the log on the way through. This doesn't make sense to me as the inside of the bar/chain is on the inside of the curve I am creating (unintentionally, I'm just holding the saw!) and therefore I would have thought it would get less abrasion or chafe compared to the outside. <sigh>

Anyway, I took some pics and will try to upload them later after cropping and re-sizing.

I haven't had a chance yet to cut with the bar reversed, but it's a good suggestion, I will do it as soon as possible.

[b]Pics:[/b]

The bar looks straight to me:

Inside of bar is chafing and Husqvana logo and name almost gone.

Inside of chain is very clean with almost polished rivets and cutting teeth:

Whereas the outside of chain is dirty with gunk all over it:

The log end showing the curved cut:

 

[DiscoInferno]

If it's actually .043" gauge (drive-link thickness) and the bar is .050" gauge (or larger), then as previous posters suggested the chain will be too loose side-side in the bar and that could certainly explain some crooked cutting. Compare the thickness of the drive links (bar guide tooth) on the new and old chains, and see if the new one can slop around in the groove.

 

[Apprentice_GM]

If it's actually .043" gauge (drive-link thickness) and the bar is .050" gauge (or larger), then as previous posters suggested the chain will be too loose side-side in the bar and that could certainly explain some crooked cutting. Compare the thickness of the drive links (bar guide tooth) on the new and old chains, and see if the new one can slop around in the groove.

I gave the old chain to the dealer to dispose of - it was well worn and worthless to me - so I can't check that unfortunately. It's a good idea, but I don't have an old chain to put on and check. Maybe I should buy a second chain and ensure it has a .050" guage or whatever matches the Husky 18" bar and see if that fixes it? That was I'll have a spare / second chain. Then if the new chain does the same thing (with the bar flipped bear in mind) get a new bar or check something else. If it cuts straight with the new chain and flipped bar, I can use the current chain limbing and bucking small logs where the curved cut doesn't matter so much.

 

[DiscoInferno]

I don't think you want to intentionally run too narrow a chain. If the dealer gave you the wrong chain, take it back.

 

[Backroads]

It's sounding more and more like the chain. I'd get another one that properly fits the saw.

 

[Apprentice_GM]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I did actually take it back to the dealer this afternoon, wondering if he had sold me a chain with too narrow a guage for the bar. First of all he decreed the problem was because one side's teeth were sharper than the other sides. I discounted that immediately as it was happening from first use of brand new chain. I told him the box didn't match the chain, but was it possible he had sold me less than 0.050" guage chain? He said impossible, as the chain I had didn't come in less than 0.050", which I found strange, as the (incorrectly matched) box the chain came in has 0.043" on it. Hmmmm . . .

However, I took him at his word that the chain he sold me was 0.050", after all it has a "5" on the bar guide tooth, and he had a good look at the bar and picked up something I had missed, but similar to what others here have been getting at with the focus on chain guage.

The bar has been overheated along one edge (the top edge now it's flipped, formerly the bottom since I got the new chain) and allows more movement of the chain laterally than it should have. Which is similar to having too small a guage chain in the bar. So when it overheated it must have slightly widened the bar slot along that edge. Which makes me wonder if that is what caused the old chain to break (as an earlier poster asked). So a couple of follow up questions:

1) Can I repair the bar by filing it down, presuming the widening of the slot decreases away from the edge?
2) Or should I just buy a new bar? The dealer says it isn't a safety issue, I'll just keep cutting curves
3) Why did it overheat and how can I prevent this in future?

With #3, where I live in Australia it is pretty mild really, especially compared to the awesome winters I see in North America or Europe. Nights get down to 0 occasionally, more likely 2 or 3 degrees, no snow, frosts are rare. Days are great, often mid teens even in winter (now), nice and sunny. All temps are Celsius I have a chainsaw routine where every tank I finish, I stop, refuel and re-lube (which is never empty, the husky is cleverly designed to ensure lube outlasts fuel), run a file across the teeth holding the bar in a gloved hand for a light sharpen but my wood shavings are always beautiful long peelings, and have a drink and maybe take a picture. So even with constant work through a long 10 or 12 hour day, which I've done a few times, I can't see how I'm overheating a bar. The chain always looks lubed and never feels hot when I sharpen it. Any ideas on how I have overheated and not noticed, and what do I look for in future to avoid this?

Thanks so much for all your advice so far!

 

[Backroads]

How much oil is left in the tank is the question I'd look into. Just because there is oil left doesn't mean that all is good. You could actually be not getting enough oil to the chain/bar. The rule of thumb I use is tank of fuel/tank of oil(or as close as I can get without going empty in the oil). I'd look into adjusting the oil to use more myself. As for a new bar, is it worn really bad on both sides? If so I'd save it for cutting junk and pick up a new one. I know it seems like a pain to switch back and forth but whenever I got some "less desirable" stuff to cut I have an older chain/bar I throw on to save on the better set.

 

[TruePatriot]

Apprentice_GM,

I'm no expert, like some of these guys, but I have seen where the two rails of the bar will wear unevenly, height-wise, thus tilting the chain one way or the other. My friend's father used to "true" these up, using a large, vertically-mounted disc sander, which struck me as a little crude, but it was apparently effective. If you can see a disparity in bar rail height, either with your eye or by putting the bar in a known-level vice, and then putting a level across the rails, IMO, that could be the cause.

A small, plastic, magnetic "torpedo level" might be handy in this application. A piece of angle-iron, clamped into the same vice, prior to checking the bar, will show if your vice is level. I have a small, "portable" vice mounted on a piece of plywood, for such instances, since my workbench and basement floor are not level.

Also, the small differences in the various dimensions for the bar gauges is kind of news to me (e.g., .045"-.050"-.058"), but couldn't you check the gap between your bar rails with a simple "feeler gauge" set?

And I'm assuming the gauge on the drive teeth is marked? If not, and somebody knew how to read a micrometer (I knew in 7th grade shop class, but not now--LOL) the drive tooth-gauge should be easily checked, I would think.

Lastly, it seems unlikely, but is it possible the drive teeth are mis-stamped, gauge-wise?

Personally, since it cut fine with the old chain, I suspect this new chain is the wrong gauge.

And I second the idea that you would not want to run a too-thin gauge of chain at all, as I believe that would create irregular wear patterns and "hog out" the interior of the rails.

Now...hopefully someone with real experience will correct any erroneous statements or assumptions I've made.

Good luck.


savageactor7:

This got me to thinking:

Then again on a used old but still serviceable chain even if both sides are correctly sharped one side could be worn back farther than the other so as the chain takes its bite the higher side of the chain will take the lead and cut either to the L or R.

I think I've learned something: for the life of me, I cannot straighten out a chain I have previously sharpened successfully--but I've been ignoring the raker-height issue, since the chain is old and I cannot find a chart listing it, so I can buy the proper depth gauge. I never thought about uneaven rakers causing evenly-sharpened teeth to bite to different depths, thereby causing a hook, but couldn't this have the same effect (hooking) as your suggestion to look at teeth filed back to different lengths? (Which, come to think of it, I believe I may also have).

Thank you!

 

[savageactor7]

I gave the old chain to the dealer to dispose of - it was well worn and worthless to me - so I can't check that unfortunately. It's a good idea, but I don't have an old chain to put on and check. Maybe I should buy a second chain and ensure it has a .050" guage or whatever matches the Husky 18" bar and see if that fixes it?

I take it the old was chain too stretched out to correctly tension? If not it's still a serviceable chain once sharpened and now you know it's always a good idea to have extra chains handy. It's one thing to be cutting in your back yard needing a chain out of your garage and another to be at a remote location having to make some production and not have one.

Your description of the bar over heating reveals to me a lube problem. Take the bar off and clean it up insuring the oil ports at the back end of the bar are open so the oil will flow to the bar. With compressed air or diesel clean out the saw and have a good look see where the saws oil reservoir weeps on to the driving chain...btw it also looked like the chain needed more oil.

Re-assemble, correctly tension, fire it up and observe for oil coming off the tip...the oil will fly off and spray a fresh cut log making it easier to spot.

Anytime you suspect the bar is overheating immediately shut down and do some trouble shooting...thing only get worse from there.

I hope you can solve this cutting crooked problem and make some good production but I'm all out of suggestions based solely on my own experience and not expert knowledge. Let us know how you make out Apprentice.

 

[kevin j]

Is the oil usage normal for what you had in the past?

My bet is that he gave you the wrong chain, which rocked in the groove (and cut crooked) which also puts more force on one tie strap than on the other. The force is not divided 50/50 left to right, so the rail with more tie strap pressure wore more. Lubrication may be adequate for normal cutting, but not enough for the heavier strap force. So if the root problem is corrected, the wear/lube problem may go away.

I would feeler gauge the bar groove (it should be stamped on the bar also for the gauge), micrometer the chain, then take the parts back to the dealer with the proof. If it is the wrong chain, and it damaged your bar, make him give you the right chain and dress the bar. Best would be for him to give you a new bar, unlikely. Maybe each pay half of his dealer cost or something. Somehow he should make good if his error caused the problem. Sounds like he is trying to blame sharpening as the error, but don't accept that excuse if the gauge is wrong. Stand your ground.....A loose chain will never work right in the groove, needs to be fixed right.

k

 

[woodconvert]

I have a Husky 353 chainsaw with 18" bar and recently broke a chain and bought a new one. The old one was the factory fitted (husky?) chain, the new one is an Oregon chain from my local dealer. I have noticed the new chain pulls me thru a log and twists to the left, or twists the saw clockwise as it cuts, compared to the old one.

It happens when you dull one side more than the other, like if you nicked a stone on one side. It's common and easy to fix. Just re-sharpen it. Look the chain over carefully and i'm sure you'll see a couple teeth on one side that are dinged.