Chimney Liner Question

[noviceinsertuser]

Someone please talk me down from the ledge...trying to figure out this woodstove has consumed my life. I have it going around 400 degrees and can only raise the room it is located in by about 4 degrees. I know there has been postings about block off plates and, although they most likely help with efficiency, I feel something else is wrong. As I was walking the dogs this morning, I analyzed the chimney liner. I have no knowledge to this stuff so forgive me for my questions, but should the plate on the liner be sealed to the masonry of the chimney? Please check out the pictures. It was my understanding that the chimney is capped and therefore a block off plate wasn't an absolute necessity. I paid $500 to have this done and it looks like a pretty crappy job, if you ask me. Any help is so greatly appreciated. I have called the dealer multiple times to only be ignored. Next step is to go straight to Hearthstone. Also, I can feel heat through the walls along the chimney. I was upstairs in my bedroom closet and the wall was warm to the touch...wouldn't this indicate heat loss through the chimney?

Thanks!

By the way, I have a Hearthstone Morgan insert

 

[DAKSY]

Hey, noviceinsertuser,
Someone please talk me down from the ledge...trying to figure out this woodstove has consumed my life. I have it going around 400 degrees and can only raise the room it is located in by about 4 degrees. I know there has been postings about block off plates and, although they most likely help with efficiency, I feel something else is wrong. As I was walking the dogs this morning, I analyzed the chimney liner. I have no knowledge to this stuff so forgive me for my questions, but should the plate on the liner be sealed to the masonry of the chimney? Please check out the pictures. It was my understanding that the chimney is capped and therefore a block off plate wasn't an absolute necessity. I paid $500 to have this done and it looks like a pretty crappy job, if you ask me. Any help is so greatly appreciated. I have called the dealer multiple times to only be ignored. Next step is to go straight to Hearthstone. Also, I can feel heat through the walls along the chimney. I was upstairs in my bedroom closet and the wall was warm to the touch...wouldn't this indicate heat loss through the chimney?

The top plate should formed to fit & be RTV siliconed to your flue tile...
When I install ANY liner in a terra cotta flue tile, I wad up some fibreglas UNFACED insulation & jam it in the flue around the liner BEFORE I RTV the top plate...
I also jam the same type of insulation into the damper area around the liner...
This essentially turns your shimney into a standing column of dead air - which also acts as insulation...
The ehat you feel thru the walls is probably normal...
If it gets too hot, you may wanna pour a Thermix type product around the liner...
Sounds to me like you're losing from the bottom, so regardless of what your dealer said, eith get & install a blockoff plate, or get some insulation in there,,,
You WILL notice the difference in the heat from your unit...

 

[bren582]

Do you HAVE TO HAVE a damper block plate? No.

Should you install one anyway? YES

Looks like your installer was drunk based on that pic. I would insist he come back and do it right. No doubt the top plate is leaking and since you don't have a damper plate your heat is probably getting sucked right up the flue to the outside..

As a relative newbie I am really tired of hearing about installers telling people they don't need or should not install a damper block plate. The sad reality is that installers don't want to do it because by code they don't have to. The average dealer/installer couldn't care less if your stove works as efficiently as it possible can. Yup I said it.. And stuffing some insulation into the damper area is not going to cut it.. This is another dealer/installer cop out when the consumer calls them on it.. Again fast fix that is not a fix at all.. They just want you out of their hair..

You pay 2 3 4 thousand plus for that EPA certified technology stove only to have some pinhead installer cut corners on the install so they can get in/out as fast as possible and you end up effectively cutting the legs out from under the possible peak efficiency of that nice new stove. This is fact!! and even more of an issue if your chimney is exterior to the house as so many are.

If you have an external Chimney as I do you have to do the following to realize maximum efficiency and heat output from your stove or insert. There is no argument here, It makes a huge difference:

1 -Install a damper block plate
2- Install an insulated liner from the stove to the top plate
3- Seal the top plate effectively creating the dead air space that Daksy speaks of..

You will push a much greater percentage of the heat created into the house.. If the installer won't do it you should do it yourself or find someone who can do it for you.. It's worth the extra cost.. every penny of it..

Someone please stop the madness

 

[Rudyjr]

The top plate in your picture is not sealed to the liner so that is definitely insult to injury, most of your heat is up and out. The block off plate is the best way to go if you wan't to realize your stoves potential. Installers do not wan't to deal with custom making a block off plate, but it is not too difficult to do. There is a set of pictures in the link in my signature and a description of what I did to install my stove.

 

[LeonMSPT]

500 bucks? Sounds and looks like about 500 bucks worth.

The top plate looks like it was just dropped over the liner and left there. No plate with a clamp to retain it, no RTV sealant...

At a minimum, you need to get the top plate sealed up. Central chimney shouldn't be that heat hungry. Considering trying that myself, just to quantify the difference for myself.

 

[pinewoodburner]

I agree with the others, you should get a blockoff plate for the damper area and insulate the top of it. If your chimney is getting warm enough for you to feel on the brick, it is absorbing alot of heat. With an insert, it takes blowers to get the heat that surrounds the stove out to the room and without the blockoff plate, the heat is rising. If the top plate is not sealed, you are loosing even more heat.

 

[DAKSY]

As a relative newbie I am really tired of hearing about installers telling people they don't need or should not install a damper block plate. The sad reality is that installers don't want to do it because by code they don't have to. The average dealer/installer couldn't care less if your stove works as efficiently as it possible can. Yup I said it.. And stuffing some insulation into the damper area is not going to cut it.. This is another dealer/installer cop out when the consumer calls them on it.. Again fast fix that is not a fix at all.. They just want you out of their hair..

Well, Mr. Relative Newbie, I happen to work for a reputable chearth company that has been in business for 32 years & you're a little off base. Insulation works just as well & is not a cop out...Insulating the TOP & the BOTTOM of the flue probably works BETTER than just a block off plate - ESPECIALLY when the insert or stove is NOT in use. A block off plate ALONE at the bottom of the flue in the damper area will DEFINITELY keep heated air from exiting, but will it keep cold out? NOT ENTIRELY...
With out the inslation at the top of the flue, cold air will drop in the chimney, the block off plate will pick up some of the cold of the chimney & will create the illusion of a cold, drafty, leak...The natural convection of warm air hitting the clod block off plate & DROP...
Insulation does not get cold & it does not burn in this situation. It is by no means a quick fix. We have many word-of-mouth custmers come to us for installation services, because we do it right.

 

[burntime]

I used about 12 inchs of rock wool on top under the top plate and 2 inchs of rockwool on top of the blockoff plate when I installed the lower blockoff plate. Between the better seal, insulating, and the blockoff plate it made a world of difference

 

[bren582]

Well Mr Daksy, I must question your contention that insulation works just as well as a sealed metal plate.. Come on.. Insulation creating a dead air space, especially glass spun home insulation?? Are you sure about that Mr 32 yrs dealer?

Fiberglass insulation DOES NOT block air movement.. Never has and never will. Maybe your dealership needs another 32 years to accept that.

There is little to gain by insulating the damper plate but its a gain non the less so obviously it can't hurt. If your going through the effort of doing the metal plate of course put some frikin insulation in there, I did simply because I wanted to go to every length I could to keep the heat in and I had the spare insulation left over to do it.

And if your going to put insulation on top of the damper plate or anywhere in the flue don't use glass insulation for a number of temperature/health related reasons. If you do work for a dealer with 32 yrs experience you should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting the use of regular insulation in this fashion to others who may not know better. Ceramic fiber blanket would be the correct insulation to use on top of the block off plate near the flue liner or maybe one of the mixed vermiculite products available for this purpose. Has your dealer in all its 32 years of experience ever heard of formaldehyde off gassing?? Will your dealer be out to clean up this guys melted glass mess in case he experiences a chimney fire? As a newbie I am aware of these issues because I took the time to read up on it.. I suggest your dealer do the same..

I think your response proves my point about many (OK Certainly NOT all) dealer/installers out there pretending they know it all when they clearly don't..

 

[DAKSY]

OK, Mr. Newbie..You can read...Good for you. Have you ever taken the NFI certification course? I have & I passed both the Gas & Wood& I am a certified installation pro...
Try to take it some time...Take the 110 wood burning certification test...If you pass it, I will consider you a man who knows his stuff, not just a man of letters.
As a side note to the NFI certification course, the owner of our company, who dictates all & approves ALL of our installation procedures, was one of those wood burning pros, brought in by NFI to write the certification exam questions.
Say what you want & do what you want with your own install in your own house.
We have in excess of 7000 customers who will agree with me - we do it right or we won't do it at all..
Anyway, enough of this thread, off to help some others with what I believe to be safe practices - in some of the other forums on this site...
Have A safe & warm day!

 

[bren582]

Have A safe & warm day!

And I I hope you do as well..