Chimney Liner Shopping

[JonOfSunderland]

Just bought a house and will be bringing the Mansfield along. The previous owners left an All-Nighter installed in the basement into a masonry chimney with clay tile flue. I don't like the looks of the clay (a couple are cracked) and plan to reline the chimney with stainless. It seems to me there are two separate groups of liner systems. There's Simpson and Selkirk with multiple short sections of pipe (rigid or flex) and insulation sleeves. And then there's Rockford, Chimney Liner Depot, Magnaflex, and Homesaver (and possibly others) with full length trim-to-length liners and wrap-around insulation. Obviously Selkirk and Simpson have impeccable reputations, but the other brands are definitely appealing for ease of installation. How do they all compare quality-wise. Some of them claim to have less toxic insulation, but I can't find any info on what Selkirk's or Simpson's are made of. I would hope that at this point non of them have toxic side effects. Rockford looks particularly appealing because it's available full length oval, even with an oval chimney cap and top plate. Any thoughts?

The clay liner is 6.5"x11.5" inside

Jon

 

[Green Energy]

I am happy with the Rockford 6"x25' kit that I put in my 11x11" clay lined chimney. Went in easy after I busted out the smoke damper frame. Spray adhesive for the insulation wrap is messy if you get it on your hands. I recommend latex gloves when working with that stuff. Just put it in a month ago, so I don't have years of experience with it. Several of the components have Forever Flex labels on them. So Rockford is probably reselling some of the components.

 

[pilot-werx]

I used Ventinox because it was the only one that I could find that had a welded seam and not crimped. Too many times I have seen people wrestling with the crimped liner only to have it come apart....

 

[drumbum]

Steer clear of Rockford, unless you dig a bait and switch!

 

[theheatelement]

I have seen welded liners come apart as well... it's just like condoms the reason they say their 99% effective is because every manufacturing process can incur problems.

I used Ventinox because it was the only one that I could find that had a welded seam and not crimped. Too many times I have seen people wrestling with the crimped liner only to have it come apart....

 

[MikeP]

Just relined my chimney yesterday, same size rectangular flue as yours. I used the Simpson-Duravent oval Duraliner. http://www.duravent.com/?page=4a.php Went in easy, did pretty much the whole thing by myself. Only issue I had was the T snout was a little snug going down in a few spots, and was a little dented when done.

It costs a little more than the flex and insulation wrap, but I liked the fact that it is pre-insulated, and it has a metal outer skin, not just a foil and mesh that could get snagged and tear on something on the way down. This was very important to me as my masonary chimney touches some framing, and needed to be SURE that the liner met 0"/0" clearance specs, which the duraliner does.

 

[JonOfSunderland]

Not sure what that means, but what problems have you had (or heard of) with them?

Steer clear of Rockford, unless you dig a bait and switch!

How did you terminate your chimney at the top?

Just relined my chimney yesterday, same size rectangular flue as yours. I used the Simpson-Duravent oval Duraliner. http://www.duravent.com/?page=4a.php Went in easy, did pretty much the whole thing by myself. Only issue I had was the T snout was a little snug going down in a few spots, and was a little dented when done.

It costs a little more than the flex and insulation wrap, but I liked the fact that it is pre-insulated, and it has a metal outer skin, not just a foil and mesh that could get snagged and tear on something on the way down. This was very important to me as my masonary chimney touches some framing, and needed to be SURE that the liner met 0"/0" clearance specs, which the duraliner does.

 

[53flyer]

It seems to me there are two separate groups of liner systems. There's Simpson and Selkirk with multiple short sections of pipe (rigid or flex) and insulation sleeves. And then there's Rockford, Chimney Liner Depot, Magnaflex, and Homesaver (and possibly others) with full length trim-to-length liners and wrap-around insulation.

You’re right, there are numerous manufacturers- I think Everguard, Excel ICC, Metalbestos, and novaflex, may be others but sometimes it's just the name of a product line (like duravent/duraflex of Simpson) as opposed to another manufacturer. I've also found different types of pipe construction like 304SS and 316ti SS (both UL 1777 rated but 304 seems to be about 20-25% less cost than the 316ti). I've seen 316ti described for the same uses as 304 except 316ti says it's designed for harsher conditions, for more resistance to corrosion (due to the titanium), such as coal). I've also recently seen 316L which I don't know much about yet and there may be other construction methods I'm unaware of. Anybody know of other wood burning pipe materials besides these?

I have learned you can't use galvanized steel because it will apparently off gas toxic fumes when heated up although I thought I'd seen some galvanized top flashing and rain caps so maybe it doesn't matter at the top of the chimney? The black stovepipe apparently isn't durable enough (even for an internal chimney) so it's only supposed to be used for freestanding stoves indoors.

 

[odonnell0917]

I just did my install this weekend. I had shoulder surgery about 6 weeks ago and my wife measured the clay liner for me. Bad move. I have the exact same size clay liner as you and she measured teh rain cap. I ordered the Magnaflex 6" S/S liner that is already insulated. About 7.5" OD. I had to rip off half the isulation and squish the rest into an oval shape to get it in. My point is that with the size of your clay liner, you will not be able to have it insulated.

 

[theheatelement]

Glad, you got it installed... Of course that is one inherent problem with having insulation is that it narrows down your width... Even the duraliner pipes have a smaller width, you might want to think about a 5"insulated kit if you feel it is necessary other wise if your chimney is up to spec just install a 6" uninsulated.

I just did my install this weekend. I had shoulder surgery about 6 weeks ago and my wife measured the clay liner for me. Bad move. I have the exact same size clay liner as you and she measured teh rain cap. I ordered the Magnaflex 6" S/S liner that is already insulated. About 7.5" OD. I had to rip off half the isulation and squish the rest into an oval shape to get it in. My point is that with the size of your clay liner, you will not be able to have it insulated.

 

[joe245]

Jon, I did mine about a week ago similar I.D. of the flue. I went with the 6'' round instead of the oval due to price and made a ovalizer for it to run the liner through. I left 6'' at the bottom and 6'' at the top of round, I could have left more at the top but I was able to get it back to round with no problem. I got the 6'' round to about 4.5 x 9 and was to insulate and install no problem. You are welcome to use it, if you'd like

 

[sugarloafer]

I went with the 6'' round instead of the oval due to price and made a ovalizer for it to run the liner through.

Joe O - how did you make your ovalizer? I am installing a flex liner this weekend and have to ovalize the last three feet.

Jon, re your question about "less toxic" insulation. Some insulation materials are ceramic, and others are not. The ceramic particles are not soluble, so if inhaled they may be a cause for concern. Whether or not they're toxic, I don't know. (Perhaps someone more knowledgeable of the materials can speak to this.) Either way, no different than working with pink insulation... you don't want to inhale these fibers or get them in your eyes, so a mask and eye protection are in order. From what I've seen, ceramic insulation is often used in high temp commercial applications (furnaces, stoves, etc...) in the manufacturing process (example, building a furnace or pizza oven). Most flex pipe insulation kits feature non-ceramic insulation and are more suitable to the homeowner "installer" (like you and me). I spent way too much time trolling the internet to learn more about insulation, thinking I'd buy my own insulation, foil, wire mesh, etc... so I'd have more flexibility to use the materials on other projects. In the end I ordered a kit online this morning.

 

[Dirtgrain]

Sugarloafer, what kit did you get, and where did you get it? I'm just starting to look myself.

 

[joe245]

Sugarloager, I welded up some left over pipe my uncle had from a job site, that they use to hang commercial A/C's with threaded rod and PVC pipe for the rollers. I'll try to post some pics. But if you only have to do three feet there are a couple of clips out there that show it being done with a 2x10. One is one a manufacture sight and a couple on u-tube. I didn't want to do the whole thing that way so I wiped one up.(It took about three hours) I know a couple of friends thinking about doing inserts that would be in the same boat, so now it will be easier on me when I help. Your also welcome to it. I don't know what part of Maine. For three not worth the trip

 

[joe245]

Maybe these will help. I think I was able to shrink them down (Don't want to get yell at by the Mod's)

 

[MikeP]

How did you terminate your chimney at the top?

Just relined my chimney yesterday, same size rectangular flue as yours. I used the Simpson-Duravent oval Duraliner. http://www.duravent.com/?page=4a.php Went in easy, did pretty much the whole thing by myself. Only issue I had was the T snout was a little snug going down in a few spots, and was a little dented when done.

It costs a little more than the flex and insulation wrap, but I liked the fact that it is pre-insulated, and it has a metal outer skin, not just a foil and mesh that could get snagged and tear on something on the way down. This was very important to me as my masonary chimney touches some framing, and needed to be SURE that the liner met 0"/0" clearance specs, which the duraliner does.

I used their extend-a-cap kit, which comes with a top plate that sits on the existing tile/chimney top. There is a clamp setup that the liner actually hangs from that sits on top of that. The kit also includes a storm collar and a cap. There's some good diagrams of the whole setup in the install pdf. Heres the link... (broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/docs/instruct/L402_Nov09.pdf)

 

[theheatelement]

Yeah mods sorry about the big pics.. we sell kits every now and then with the last 5 feet ovalized, it makes getting through that damper easier.

 

[53flyer]

I used their extend-a-cap kit,...There's some good diagrams of the whole setup in the install pdf. Heres the link... (broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/docs/instruct/L402_Nov09.pdf)

I just went to that pg and read under materials: "...304 SS inner and galvalume outer." What's galvalume? It sound similar to galvanized and my understanding is that galvanized doesn't work due to heat causing toxic gas. Since I'm sure they aren’t selling something that would off gas I take it that this is some other type of material other than galvanized? Thanks to whoever knows the answer to this.

 

[joe245]

my understanding is that galvanized doesn’t work due to heat causing toxic gas.


If that is the case Block Off plates can not or should not be galvanized ? It would have to get hot enough to burn the galvanization in order to give off the fumes . I'm not sure what that is, I'll have to Goggle it

 

[sugarloafer]

Sugarloafer, what kit did you get, and where did you get it? I'm just starting to look myself.

I went with a Selkirk Flex Versa-Liner in large measure because it comes standard with a 24"x24" top plate that I can trim down to size. I have a 10"x10" tile that's terminates approx 6" below the top of the crown. The cement tapers out a bit such that at the crown itself the opening is close to 11" by 12". Most top plates in the liner kits are 13"x13" and I wanted more than a half-inch/inch or so overlap. I could have ordered an 18"x18" with most manufacturers, but for some I looked it, that was extra. This was one order. I also like that the top termination is designed in a manner that permits the liner to expand and contract (it's attached to the cap but not the top plate. The HomeSaver does the same and I suspect others may too. And, I paid a fair price. I found cheaper and I found more expensive, but this fit my budget and seems like a reputable product. It's due to arrive on Friday, so I'll know soon how I made out.

For insulation, only a blanket wrap (1/2" foil faced) is approved by Selkirk for this liner. Their manual specifically notes NOT to use a poured loose or cement insulation around the liner. Also, the Selkirk flex versa-liner is 304L, not the 316Ti. I'm only burning wood in this stove, not gas, so the 304L meets the spec. My bike is Ti, but I digress.

I can't offer much advice about liners, but I can share some insight into researching liners. If you plan on doing the install yourself, before you buy any liner online, download and read the manufacturers installation manual and/or call the seller/manufacturer. There are many subtle nuances (pop rivet attachments vs. clamps vs. screws, insulation requirements, etc...) that you may not pick up on in the product description online.

Sidebar, my first stop when shopping for a liner was my local wood stove shop. I buy as much as can as local as I can get. The initial advice I got ("just go w/6 feet of flex up to your tile") was not inspiring. And the $$$ quoted for a liner and insulation was well north of prices available from other shops that ship. Had they been close, not even lower, but within 15-20%, I still would have gone in that direction.



Correction:
The Selkirk Versa Liner (it comes in both rigid or flex) is:
Rigid - 0.016 Type 304 SS
Flex - 316L Stainless

Also... as Magna pointed out below, the 304 is approved for more than just wood. Per Selkirk, the Versa Liner is approved for wood, oil, gas or coal. I should take my own advice and read the manual before posting. And Dirtgrain, now that I'm back cleaning up my post, I think you were actually asking about where I ordered my insulation kit. Woodland Direct.

 

[JonOfSunderland]

But the extend-a-cap is for round pipe only right? So your last section of liner is oval-to-round? Did this fit in the clay flue ok?

I used their extend-a-cap kit, which comes with a top plate that sits on the existing tile/chimney top. There is a clamp setup that the liner actually hangs from that sits on top of that. The kit also includes a storm collar and a cap. There's some good diagrams of the whole setup in the install pdf. Heres the link... (broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/docs/instruct/L402_Nov09.pdf)

Does anyone have any experience with the cast-in-place liners?

(broken link removed to http://www.goldenflue.com/index.aspx)
(broken link removed)

 

[sugarloafer]

Sugarloager, I welded up some left over pipe my uncle had from a job site, that they use to hang commercial A/C's with threaded rod and PVC pipe for the rollers. I'll try to post some pics. But if you only have to do three feet there are a couple of clips out there that show it being done with a 2x10. One is one a manufacture sight and a couple on u-tube. I didn't want to do the whole thing that way so I wiped one up.(It took about three hours) I know a couple of friends thinking about doing inserts that would be in the same boat, so now it will be easier on me when I help. Your also welcome to it. I don't know what part of Maine. For three not worth the trip

Joe O - you don't mess around. That's quite the rig. I see many cases of beer-for-oval in your future. And thanks for the offer, but for three feet or so of oval, that's not worth the trip. I've seen one those youtube videos. And your pics give me some solid ideas. Thanks for sharing.

 

[sugarloafer]

Does anyone have any experience with the cast-in-place liners?
/

Jon - I don't, but a friend of mine had a chimney fire two years ago (they had an old barrel stove and 2 1/2 stories of pipe - stove in basement/two storey cathedral ceiling=big fire). They had a tile liner inside their chimney. To remedy their situation (after the fire was out), they went with a cast-in liner. The installers broke out the tile liner and installed a new cast in. They are very happy (I believe) with the results. They also replaced the barrel stove with a Pacific Energy and went from 6 1/2 cords of wood down to 4 for a season. If you'd like talk w/them about their chimney, PM me and I'll ask if they would be willing to connect with you.

 

[theheatelement]

Just an Fyi all stainless grades from 304 316L 316ti or 321 are rated for gas, if it's rated for wood.. almost 100% chance it's rated for wood

Sugarloafer, what kit did you get, and where did you get it? I'm just starting to look myself.

I went with a Selkirk Flex Versa-Liner in large measure because it comes standard with a 24"x24" top plate that I can trim down to size. I have a 10"x10" tile that's terminates approx 6" below the top of the crown. The cement tapers out a bit such that at the crown itself the opening is close to 11" by 12". Most top plates in the liner kits are 13"x13" and I wanted more than a half-inch/inch or so overlap. I could have ordered an 18"x18" with most manufacturers, but for some I looked it, that was extra. This was one order. I also like that the top termination is designed in a manner that permits the liner to expand and contract (it's attached to the cap but not the top plate. The HomeSaver does the same and I suspect others may too. And, I paid a fair price. I found cheaper and I found more expensive, but this fit my budget and seems like a reputable product. It's due to arrive on Friday, so I'll know soon how I made out.

For insulation, only a blanket wrap (1/2" foil faced) is approved by Selkirk for this liner. Their manual specifically notes NOT to use a poured loose or cement insulation around the liner. Also, the Selkirk flex versa-liner is 304L, not the 316Ti. I'm only burning wood in this stove, not gas, so the 304L meets the spec. My bike is Ti, but I digress.

I can't offer much advice about liners, but I can share some insight into researching liners. If you plan on doing the install yourself, before you buy any liner online, download and read the manufacturers installation manual and/or call the seller/manufacturer. There are many subtle nuances (pop rivet attachments vs. clamps vs. screws, insulation requirements, etc...) that you may not pick up on in the product description online.

Sidebar, my first stop when shopping for a liner was my local wood stove shop. I buy as much as can as local as I can get. The initial advice I got ("just go w/6 feet of flex up to your tile") was not inspiring. And the $$$ quoted for a liner and insulation was well north of prices available from other shops that ship. Had they been close, not even lower, but within 15-20%, I still would have gone in that direction.

 

[sugarloafer]

Thanks for correcting. It's late. The brain is lazy. Did I mean to say "coal?"