Chimney questions for wood stove install

[Coalescent]

Hello,

If you're reading this, I hope you don't mind a bit of background detail. I appreciate any thoughts anyone cares to share.

I purchased an old New England colonial farmhouse this past summer and have been looking forward to purchasing and installing a Progress Hybrid, a decision I came to after much research and driving over to the Woodstock factory with diagrams of my home.

The existing brick chimney is in the exact center of the home and has been used for different purposes over the years. It has no fireplace, only a thimble with a 6" pipe in it and an old oil boiler attached in the basement that hasn't been in use for at least a decade. The previous owner had a soapstone wood stove of some kind attached to it that I saw from the previous listing's photos.

I hired a local chimney sweep to give me a quote on an install. He sent a young fellow out, not the chimney sweep himself but a "technician." Turns out the chimney has a metal liner already installed with mortar poured in around it.

He told me in no uncertain terms that I could not use the existing chimney. He said it needs an insulated liner or it's unsafe. He did not check clearances or anything like that. I asked if the mortar around the existing metal liner provided some insulation and he claimed it did not. A bit of internet research after the fact suggests that a poured mortar liner can be a nice insulator and can help restore strength to an old chimney like this one.

I hired him to send a camera up there and check the condition of the liner, which he did not do (and therefore didn't charge me, which was nice) because he took one look from the thimble and from the top and said this chimney is unusable due to the poured mortar and the metal liner.

He said my only choice is to demolish the existing chimney entirely and have them build a new one in its place, or place the stove against an exterior wall and run a stainless chimney through the wall and up the side of the house.

I am planning to get at least one more opinion here, but I wanted to check with you guys to find out if it's true that I cannot safely hook a wood stove (the Progress Hybrid is the one I care about) to this liner. If the metal liner isn't cracked or compromised (it is a bit rusty, I could see that), is it possible a more experience chimney sweep might tell me something different?

I had the distinct feeling this young man, while very friendly and a nice guy, just wasn't experienced enough to give me useful information about my situation. He believed an insulated flex liner is the only option for an existing chimney, period, and if there isn't room to fit one down there, the only option is to make room--which in this case means destroying and recreating the entire chimney in the middle of my historic home.

The interior of the metal pipe is 6". I don't know what type of metal it is.

If you've read this far--thank you! Any thoughts are appreciated. I very much want to be heating with wood next year, but I don't want to pay a fortune to demolish and recreate my historic home's chimney if I don't have to... and on the other hand, I don't want to be unsafe and burn my home down, either.

 

[begreen]

I'd want a second opinion. Some things to check: Does the chimney have 2" clearance from any combustible all the way up? Is the "mortar" actual mortar or vermiculite or perlite mixed with cement? Is the metal liner stainless steel and if yes, what condition is it in? If it has the required clearances and the liner is stainless and in good condition I would probably use it unless inspection showed a defect.

I'm not a big fan of out the wall and up chimneys. You do have another option and that is to remove the chimney and put a metal one in its place. Or do a straight up install of a new chimney at another location in the house. If you opt to remove the chimney, this can be a DIY project. What ever you decide, get a few cords of the driest wood available now. Modern stoves really need dry wood to perform well.

 

[Coalescent]

I'd want a second opinion. Some things to check: Does the chimney have 2" clearance from any combustible all the way up? Is the "mortar" actual mortar or vermiculite or perlite mixed with cement? Is the metal liner stainless steel and if yes, what condition is it in? If it has the required clearances and the liner is stainless and in good condition I would probably use it unless inspection showed a defect.

I'm not a big fan of out the wall and up chimneys. You do have another option and that is to remove the chimney and put a metal one in its place. Or do a straight up install of a new chimney at another location in the house. If you opt to remove the chimney, this can be a DIY project. What ever you decide, get a few cords of the driest wood available now. Modern stoves really need dry wood to perform well.

Thank you very much for your thoughts.

If you mean a 2" clearance from the old bricks themselves, I'd say probably not--but I will check. I can take a sample of the mortar, but I am not certain what it's composed of. I'll see if I can locate someone who can analyze it for me. When I get my second opinion, I'll try to find someone who might be able to tell me what metal the liner is composed of.

I hadn't thought about placing a metal chimney in place of the old one. I hate to tear down a chimney that's been there for 200 years.

I'll start collecting wood now. I haven't tended a wood stove since my teenage years, but I'm eager to get back into practice. It's one of my fondest memories.

 

[bholler]

I would say that it is pretty unlikely that it is actual mortar poured around the liner. If it was the expansion of that liner would have seriously cracked your chimney because mortar does not allow for expansion. It is much more likely that it is cement and vermiculite chimney insulation. You need to get another sweep out there to confirm no need to have it analyzed someone who knows what they are looking at will be able to easily tell the difference

 

[BigBadVoodooDaddy]

Having gone through some of this myself in the recent past I can say that the only way you will know for certain is to find out what your county regulations require. Some places will allow you to "grandfather" the existing chimney. Some will allow you to only use it for the originally intended purpose. Others require brand spanking new liner and everything up to the current code. It depends on your local county and municipal regulations and the only way you will know for certain is to get on the phone or go down in person and find out for yourself.

Also, I would not call your chimney sweep but your local fireplace mason that actually builds chimneys. I've found the hard way that your best bet is to hire the professional that builds and maintains the chimneys and there really isn't a substitute for the experience and knowledge of an old fireplace mason.

Good luck to you.

 

[Coalescent]

I would say that it is pretty unlikely that it is actual mortar poured around the liner. If it was the expansion of that liner would have seriously cracked your chimney because mortar does not allow for expansion. It is much more likely that it is cement and vermiculite chimney insulation. You need to get another sweep out there to confirm no need to have it analyzed someone who knows what they are looking at will be able to easily tell the difference

Thank you bholler. Mortar was the word the technician used--sounds like perhaps he meant something like cement and vermiculite? I left a couple messages with other local chimney sweeps in the hopes that I can get a second opinion and find out whether a full rebuild is actually necessary.

Is it possible to have a full rebuild done using the original bricks, or will the bricks be destroyed when the chimney is taken apart? I was really hoping I might be able to have the old liner removed and a cast-in-place liner installed, but it sounds like the "mortar" is too difficult to remove without destroying the rest of the chimney in the process.

 

[bholler]

Is it possible to have a full rebuild done using the original bricks, or will the bricks be destroyed when the chimney is taken apart? I was really hoping I might be able to have the old liner removed and a cast-in-place liner installed, but it sounds like the "mortar" is too difficult to remove without destroying the rest of the chimney in the process.

If it is actually mortar there will be nothing salvageable. And it will be a real pain to demo. And no there would be no way to remove that mortar if it is mortar there would probably be no way to remove the old liner either. But regardless i have not seen great results from cast in place liners I would go with stainless if you rebuild. Or just do a prefab chimney. But again i doubt it really is mortar. And if it is cement and vermiculite and the liner is in good shape there should be no need to change anything.

 

[Coalescent]

Hello BigBadVoodooDaddy,

Thank you for the suggestion, that's a great idea. I left a message with highest rated local mason I could find. I will get an estimate from him, too, and see what he thinks my options might be.

Most of the chimney sweeps in my area also seem to advertise themselves as masons. I can see why these trades would go hand-in-hand, but it's hard to gauge the skill of any particular sweep when it comes to serious reconstructive work like that based only on reviews. All of the reviews were for chimney cleanings and inspections, not for extensive brickwork.

 

[BigBadVoodooDaddy]

Another thing that really popped to my mind. Check your local codes for historical buildings codes.

In some cases they actually don't allow you to rebuild the chimney on older homes, and if yours is truly 200 years old then I would say it might qualify. There are some incredibly strict regulations on what you can and can't do to the older homes, I'd suggest you check with the county and municipal government in your area to see what your options really are!

 

[Coalescent]

The town I'm in has very little in the way of historic ordinances, but I would like to maintain and restore as much of this colonial home as I possibly can. Some nearby communities have incredibly rigid rules concerning historic properties, but not the small town I'm in.

I was told by my home inspector that the old wood burning appliances would have been grandfathered in, but because the previous owner removed them, I have do things to code. On the other hand, he said a couple other things that I've since discovered to be incorrect, so I've taken that with a grain of salt. Perhaps different rules do apply to an older building, but I don't want to do anything unsafe for my family.

 

[bholler]

Also, I would not call your chimney sweep but your local fireplace mason that actually builds chimneys. I've found the hard way that your best bet is to hire the professional that builds and maintains the chimneys and there really isn't a substitute for the experience and knowledge of an old fireplace mason.

Most sweeps are masons also. And in my experience many masons do not know all that much about chimneys. I spend allot of my time fixing the mistakes of "old fireplace masons" There is nothing saying that you cannot use a chimney that does not meet code. But those codes are there for a reason and that reason is safety. So do you really want to try to get around them?

In some cases they actually don't allow you to rebuild the chimney on older homes, and if yours is truly 200 years old then I would say it might qualify. There are some incredibly strict regulations on what you can and can't do to the older homes, I'd suggest you check with the county and municipal government in your area to see what your options really are!

I work on allot of houses on the historic registry and in historic districts ect. And i have never come across any that did not allow for the chimney to be rebuilt as long as you maintain the same aesthetic.

 

[BigBadVoodooDaddy]

Most sweeps are masons also. And in my experience many masons do not know all that much about chimneys. There is nothing saying that you cannot use a chimney that does not meet code. But those codes are there for a reason and that reason is safety. So do you really want to try to get around them?

I completely understand your point and yes, there will be chimney sweeps that are also masons, but in my experience they have been crappy masons to say the least. One of them suggested that instead of removing the hearth we remove the lintel bar and a row of brick and then put the lintel bar back in. Not the brightest or best option to say the least! This is why I said he should look at FIREPLACE MASONS which are experts at this. I've had a couple guys in my area that are outstanding and they all specialize in brick and mortar fireplaces, both building and maintenance, as well as chimney restoration and maintenance.

I work on allot of houses on the historic registry and in historic districts ect. And i have never come across any that did not allow for the chimney to be rebuilt as long as you maintain the same aesthetic.

True. From what I understood they suggested to put a stove by the side of the outside wall and run a stainless chimney out the side. THAT would be a big nono. This statement alone makes me believe that he might not really understand what the regs might be or he just knows his business and not much else.

 

[Coalescent]

The fellow the local sweep sent called himself a "technician," and in at least one of the reviews I read of this sweep, this technician was referred to as an assistant. He took a great many pictures back to the owner/operator (who is a CSIA certified chimney sweep). I am hoping the owner will come out and give me an opinion on my options, as he's the one I've read all the good reviews about. The technician was very friendly, nice guy, he just didn't seem to know what he was talking about in certain regards.

As you pointed out, Voodoo, the last thing I want to do to my historic home is slap a 35' stainless steel chimney facing the roadway, which was where he suggested. His confident assertions that the mortar provided "absolutely no insulation" struck me as nonsensical, and the research I did afterwards showed that to be a false statement (unless he meant it in some way that wasn't obvious to me from our conversation).

At any rate, I hope to hear more information from the sweep himself when he reviews the photos and whatever the technician told him. I just wish he'd come to take a look himself.

 

[Coalescent]

I work on allot of houses on the historic registry and in historic districts ect. And i have never come across any that did not allow for the chimney to be rebuilt as long as you maintain the same aesthetic.

That's good to know, thank you. As far as I know in NH, the only historic home ordinances I need to worry about are local to the town I reside in. But I personally wish to restore this home as much as I am able, that's part of why I bought it. I love what this house is... the original structure (now one of the ells) was built in 1784. The main farmhouse (two stories and a finished attic) was built in the early 1800s, perhaps 1810 or so. Amazing how many period details remain, it's great.

 

[jetsam]

Mortar is portland, sand, and lime. Old mortar looks like sandy concrete.

Concrete is portland, sand, and gravel. You will see rocks in it.

If you see little white beads in the mix, it's likely expanded vermiculite or perlite.

If you can chip off a little piece or even just scratch off the surface, it should be pretty easy to tell what you have.

Better yet take a picture and let these guys look at it.

 

[Coalescent]

Also good to know! I'm learning a great deal tonight. Thanks, jetsam.

We're supposed to get several inches of snow tonight so it'll be a little while before I climb up to take photos of the mortar, but I might be able to get some from the chimney sweep's technician...

 

[BigBadVoodooDaddy]

Keep at it man, it is awesome that you have that nice old house. I wish we had old homes like that here in Washington but when the area wasn't really settled until mid 1800's you really don't have too many options.

Anyways, keep us updated. I'm curious to see what's going on.

 

[bholler]

That's good to know, thank you. As far as I know in NH, the only historic home ordinances I need to worry about are local to the town I reside in. But I personally wish to restore this home as much as I am able, that's part of why I bought it.

And I would always rebuild it as original as possible. Some times i may have to add a little height to a chimney but i always use the same details and as close to the same appearance brick as possible. But no i will not reuse old soft brick By the time we get to them they are usually to far gone to be used anyway.

 

[bholler]

One of them suggested that instead of removing the hearth we remove the lintel bar and a row of brick and then put the lintel bar back in. Not the brightest or best option to say the least!

Why not we move a few lintels up a year. It really is not that hard i would say most of the time it is easier and less disruptive than removing the hearth. Now we don't pull out the lintel before we put the new one in above so if that was their plan then i would say that was not wise. And yes there will be sweeps that are crappy masons and masons that know nothing about chimneys. But honestly it is pretty rare to find a masonry chimney that actually meets all codes. Part of that blame falls on the inspectors for not knowing what is required but the masons should be doing it right whether they will be called on it or not. I see lots of mason built fireplaces and almost none have the 1/8" or less mortar joints or a parged smoke chamber. And for stove chimneys i almost never see a proper wall pass thru and the block cores in the clean out are usually open. Again i am not saying there are not very good masons out there that do it right but most i come across don't.

 

[Coalescent]

What ever you decide, get a few cords of the driest wood available now. Modern stoves really need dry wood to perform well.

I am new to the art of harvesting wood but eager to learn and get started. The property I purchased this past summer has about 4 wooded acres with quite a few fallen trees I'd like to chop up and haul to a wood shed (going to use part of my barn for now, not using it for much else yet).

Are you aware of a quality guide to getting started with wood cutting? Tools, safety, techniques for the beginner? I'm happy to buy a book if it's in that form.

As a kid I split wood for my parents for years but the rounds were always delivered to us, so I don't know how to go about collecting these dead trees. Thanks in advance!

 

[dougand3]

1st - PPE - chaps, steel toed boots, safety glasses, gloves, helmet (anything overhead)
2nd - good, reliable saw with a sharp chain
3rd - mauls, axes or splitter
4rd - lots of common sense

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

I am new to the art of harvesting wood but eager to learn and get started. The property I purchased this past summer has about 4 wooded acres with quite a few fallen trees I'd like to chop up and haul to a wood shed (going to use part of my barn for now, not using it for much else yet).

Are you aware of a quality guide to getting started with wood cutting? Tools, safety, techniques for the beginner? I'm happy to buy a book if it's in that form.

As a kid I split wood for my parents for years but the rounds were always delivered to us, so I don't know how to go about collecting these dead trees. Thanks in advance!

I would recommend reading a book called "Keeping Warm With an Axe: a Woodcutters Manual" A great joy to read again and again! And then there was this book I got for Christmas, called "Norwegian Wood: Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood the Scandinavian Way" by Lars Mytting. Another great fun book to read, and it's got some lovely pictures in it as well........

 

[Coalescent]

I would recommend reading a book called "Keeping Warm With an Axe: a Woodcutters Manual" A great joy to read again and again! And then there was this book I got for Christmas, called "Norwegian Wood: Chopping, Stacking, and Drying Wood the Scandinavian Way" by Lars Mytting. Another great fun book to read, and it's got some lovely pictures in it as well........

This is exactly the kind of recommendation I was hoping for. Thank you, Chuck. It looks like "Keeping Warm with an Axe" has been reissued as "The Ax Book: The Lore and Science of the Woodcutter," but I was able to locate a copy online for a reasonable price.

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

This is exactly the kind of recommendation I was hoping for. Thank you, Chuck. It looks like "Keeping Warm with an Axe" has been reissued as "The Ax Book: The Lore and Science of the Woodcutter," but I was able to locate a copy online for a reasonable price.

Excellent! I was just browsing through it again myself; it's packed full of useful info that will keep you reading and re-reading it throughout the years..... Cheers!

 

[Coalescent]

bholler, I was hoping you wouldn't mind answering a chimney sweep question. Is there no effective way to remove and replace a liner that had mortar (it might be some kind of concrete, I believe I saw gravel in the mix) poured around it without demolishing the chimney?