Clearances with Insert Wood Stove

[Trogdortheburninator]

Hello All!

My question relates specifically to installing a Kuma Cascade Insert stove into an existing hearth. Hearth previously had an air circulating fireplace, which was a 1" ceramic tile box inside a doublewall steel box with 1" insulation between the steel walls. Upon partial removal of this fireplace, I have discovered that the alcove or hearth is 2x6 studs and fiberglass insulation, totally exposed to the inside of the hearth.

The Cascade clearance recommendations for the Insert are just blank on the Kuma Specs. Clearances to side and back wall are unlisted, as if there are no requirements. See photo. only clearances are presented from the front of the stove.

I do not like the idea of setting this stove in the wall next to wooden studs. I was thinking of installing some cement board against the studs, beneath of expensive, 1 inch thick fireproof insulation on top of that, facing the stove metal. Assuming that I read this correctly, am I correct in thinking of taking this approach?

Cascade LE insert stove is burly, firebrick walls on a steel wall of the stove, then there is a 1" clear space between similar gauge outer steel walls. I wonder if the outer wall even gets any heat? Thanks for reading and sharing opinions and wisdom.

 

[bholler]

Hello All!

My question relates specifically to installing a Kuma Cascade Insert stove into an existing hearth. Hearth previously had an air circulating fireplace, which was a 1" ceramic tile box inside a doublewall steel box with 1" insulation between the steel walls. Upon partial removal of this fireplace, I have discovered that the alcove or hearth is 2x6 studs and fiberglass insulation, totally exposed to the inside of the hearth.

The Cascade clearance recommendations for the Insert are just blank on the Kuma Specs. Clearances to side and back wall are unlisted, as if there are no requirements. See photo. only clearances are presented from the front of the stove.

I do not like the idea of setting this stove in the wall next to wooden studs. I was thinking of installing some cement board against the studs, beneath of expensive, 1 inch thick fireproof insulation on top of that, facing the stove metal. Assuming that I read this correctly, am I correct in thinking of taking this approach?

Cascade LE insert stove is burly, firebrick walls on a steel wall of the stove, then there is a 1" clear space between similar gauge outer steel walls. I wonder if the outer wall even gets any heat? Thanks for reading and sharing opinions and wisdom.

View attachment 292994

You absolutely cannot install an insert in that space they are meant to go in functioning code compliant fireplaces

 

[kennyp2339]

I think your SOL on this OP, since the zero clearance unit was removed / altered it doesn't meet the UL127 listing anymore, there seems to be a lot of literature for specifically installing Kuma inserts into ul127 compliant zero clearance fireplaces, how I'm interpretating it is that it doesnt matter the brand of the fire place of the year of the fireplace, if the fireplace was tested and meets the criteria of ul127 then it can be outfitted with a kuma insert as long as there is insulated chimney liner installed and hearth protection is met.
https://kumastorage.blob.core.windows.net/content/images/PDF Manuals/K-250_IN_Rev.190808.pdf Starts at page 9
Essentially your trying to install a woodstove into a combustible alcove at this point, neither the insert was designed for this nor will it ever meet clearances to combustibles, your better off returning the insert, buying a free standing stove and do a larger reno with a class a chimney, hearth pad and proper permitting / inspections.

 

[Trogdortheburninator]

Oh phew, well that's horrible news. The home is only 15 years old, and I know at least the chimney is double walled code, and everything was installed by a professional. I did not include any dimensions with the op, but the wood alcove is large at least, one the stove is installed, I'll almost have the clearance dimensions for the alcove stove install, about 1-2" Shy on the sides. why would someone build a hearth out of wood studs?

Thanks for the Kuma blurb. I have not seen it yet. Will read it today. Also now I'm seeing a few old posts about this I did not find yesterday while forum prowling.

Anyone take a crack at my insulation question?

 

[bholler]

Oh phew, well that's horrible news. The home is only 15 years old, and I know at least the chimney is double walled code, and everything was installed by a professional. I did not include any dimensions with the op, but the wood alcove is large at least, one the stove is installed, I'll almost have the clearance dimensions for the alcove stove install, about 1-2" Shy on the sides. why would someone build a hearth out of wood studs?

Thanks for the Kuma blurb. I have not seen it yet. Will read it today. Also now I'm seeing a few old posts about this I did not find yesterday while forum prowling.

Anyone take a crack at my insulation question?

What you had was a prefab fireplace. Commonly known as a zero clearance fireplace. It is meant to be installed in a framed structure. It is possible that fireplace may have been suitable to put an insert in before you removed it as long as both the fireplace and insert manufacturer agreed that it was ok. But now that it is disassembled it absolutely cannot be done. Doing so would be a major code violation and big fire risk. The chimney while appropriate for your old fireplace is not rated for the temperatures needed for an insert.

 

[begreen]

The usual choices in this scenario are:
1) replace the fireplace with a modern, efficient EPA ZC fireplace.
2) remove the ZC completely along with the chimney, then install a freestanding stove that meets the alcove clearance requirements in this space.
3) leave the current ZC in place and install a freestanding stove in another location.

 

[Trogdortheburninator]

OK, it was a zero clearance fireplace, I get that. But its not prefab, its a custom home, not anything prefab about it. The width of the stove is 25 inches but the interior opening widtch of the inside of the hearth between the studs is 50 inches wide, plenty of depth, much of the stove willl be in the living room, on a raised concrete hearth. That gives me 12.5 inches of side clearance, manufacturer recommendations is 14 inches. Not talking about much here. Also found the resource at www.tinywoodstove.com which says that when constructing heatshielding, you can reduce the distance to combustable materials by 2/3. There isnt a lot of literature on alcoves in here, but its not very deep in the alcove anyway. Anyway, If one could place cement board, have inch of open air space, a second layer of cement board and a 1" thick layer of kaowool or something, and then still have 9.5 inches of clearance to the sides.

I'm guessing this is going to be an unpopular, but I'm trying to be realistic here. I have a $2500 stove sitting here I am not sure I can return, and I certainly do not have the budget to do a major renovation like was suggested.

 

[begreen]

All zero clearance fireplaces are factory prefabricated. For this reason they are often called prefabs.

Clearance reduction is possible, if the stove manual indicates it is permitted. Ultimately, it's what your insurance company and the inspector apporve that's important. As noted earlier, an insert can not be installed as an alcove install. The 14" side clearance is not applicable. A freestanding Kuma Aspen or Tammarack LE would be required to make this a legal install.

 

[bholler]

OK, it was a zero clearance fireplace, I get that. But its not prefab, its a custom home, not anything prefab about it. The width of the stove is 25 inches but the interior opening widtch of the inside of the hearth between the studs is 50 inches wide, plenty of depth, much of the stove willl be in the living room, on a raised concrete hearth. That gives me 12.5 inches of side clearance, manufacturer recommendations is 14 inches. Not talking about much here. Also found the resource at www.tinywoodstove.com which says that when constructing heatshielding, you can reduce the distance to combustable materials by 2/3. There isnt a lot of literature on alcoves in here, but its not very deep in the alcove anyway. Anyway, If one could place cement board, have inch of open air space, a second layer of cement board and a 1" thick layer of kaowool or something, and then still have 9.5 inches of clearance to the sides.

I'm guessing this is going to be an unpopular, but I'm trying to be realistic here. I have a $2500 stove sitting here I am not sure I can return, and I certainly do not have the budget to do a major renovation like was suggested.

The fireplace was pre fabricated. Meaning not built on site. A prefab fireplace and a zero clearance fireplace are the same thing different names.

The clearances for an alcove are already listed as reduced in the manual. Does it explain that reduction further elsewhere?

Regardless the whole face of the fireplace will need to be removed in order to have an alcove. And you will need a new chimney that is appropriate for a woodstove.

 

[bholler]

What model cascade is it so we can look up the manual

 

[begreen]

Yeah, this is confusing. I am going by the statement - Cascade LE insert stove which is clearly an insert. AFAIK, the Cascade is only an insert. I think the confusion is that Kuma prints just one clearance table for freestanders and for inserts in their manuals. They really shouldn't do this.

 

[Trogdortheburninator]

Yes, it's a Cascade LE insert. Should the shop that sold me this stove tried to provide a little better guidance on this stuff? I mean, I went through my plan with them before I bought the stove. I did not have any information on chimney rating... For example. How would one decipher that? It was code when the house was built in 2007. When looking at the kuma catalog, clearances, minimum opening width were not presented in the same detail as they are in the owners manual. It seems like if I reinstalled the old prefab fireplace, then clearances don't even matter. Almost would be cheaper to do that, but then the 500 lb stove sits on the chincy sheet metal stove bottom? That seems like a horrible installation as well. This really stinks.

 

[bholler]

Yes, it's a Cascade LE insert. Should the shop that sold me this stove tried to provide a little better guidance on this stuff? I mean, I went through my plan with them before I bought the stove. I did not have any information on chimney rating... For example. How would one decipher that? It was code when the house was built in 2007. When looking at the kuma catalog, clearances, minimum opening width were not presented in the same detail as they are in the owners manual. It seems like if I reinstalled the old prefab fireplace, then clearances don't even matter. Almost would be cheaper to do that, but then the 500 lb stove sits on the chincy sheet metal stove bottom? That seems like a horrible installation as well. This really stinks.

What model of fireplace do you have. Most do not allow for installation of inserts in them.

Your chimney is just fine for your open fireplace. It is not suitable for an insert or stove.

 

[bholler]

Read page 10 in the manual regarding installation into factory built fireplaces

 

[Trogdortheburninator]

Welp, I should have read the owners manual before I bought the stove, or the shop should have known... Seems like a major catch 22. This is a nightmare. If I had had the shop do the install, they would have gotten out and just told me I was SOL. Either way I just pulled out a perfectly functional if not insanely inefficient fireplace and spent a bunch of money for a boat anchor.

 

[bholler]

How do you know the chimney is not rated for a wood stove?

I don't for sure but it is extremely rare for the chimney on a prefab fireplace to be listed to ul 103 ht. They are almost always listed to just 103.

And regardless it is oversized and there is no approved way to connect to it.

 

[bholler]

And yes the kuma manual is pretty poor overall

 

[begreen]

What is the make and model of the old ZC fireplace?

Will the stove shop swap out the insert for a Kuma Aspen or Tamarack?

 

[kennyp2339]

What is the make and model of the old ZC fireplace?

Will the stove shop swap out the insert for a Kuma Aspen or Tamarack?

Great question considering inserts are usually more $$$ then free standing stoves of the same size

 

[Trogdortheburninator]

What is the make and model of the old ZC fireplace?

Will the stove shop swap out the insert for a Kuma Aspen or Tamarack?

The old ZC was I think a Majestic SC42 with a blower. It was a massive unit.
Kuma Aspen or Tamarack are still Stoves through. According to Bholler, my Chimney wont even work with a stove? Its a shame though, I admit I did like that Kumas are US built from right near where I live.

I am going to do my best to work with a shop. I bought this stove in December last year to get the tax credit, but was travelling through Xmas and most of January, then Covid in February, So I am just really getting around to installing this thing now. So It has been sitting on my enclosed porch for nearly 3 months at this point. Its still completely new though. After speaking with a Kuma rep, he doesn't think its possible at all. My only option seems to be another ZC unit that has a real controllable firebox. Dealer suggested Pacific Energy. I'm still feeling pretty gut punched about it all. hindsight 20/20 I guess.

 

[bholler]

The old ZC was I think a Majestic SC42 with a blower. It was a massive unit.
Kuma Aspen or Tamarack are still Stoves through. According to Bholler, my Chimney wont even work with a stove? Its a shame though, I admit I did like that Kumas are US built from right near where I live.

I am going to do my best to work with a shop. I bought this stove in December last year to get the tax credit, but was travelling through Xmas and most of January, then Covid in February, So I am just really getting around to installing this thing now. So It has been sitting on my enclosed porch for nearly 3 months at this point. Its still completely new though. After speaking with a Kuma rep, he doesn't think its possible at all. My only option seems to be another ZC unit that has a real controllable firebox. Dealer suggested Pacific Energy. I'm still feeling pretty gut punched about it all. hindsight 20/20 I guess.

"Do not install a solid fuel burning insert or otherproducts not specified for use with this fireplace"

Directly from your manual

 

[bholler]

The old ZC was I think a Majestic SC42 with a blower. It was a massive unit.
Kuma Aspen or Tamarack are still Stoves through. According to Bholler, my Chimney wont even work with a stove? Its a shame though, I admit I did like that Kumas are US built from right near where I live.

I am going to do my best to work with a shop. I bought this stove in December last year to get the tax credit, but was travelling through Xmas and most of January, then Covid in February, So I am just really getting around to installing this thing now. So It has been sitting on my enclosed porch for nearly 3 months at this point. Its still completely new though. After speaking with a Kuma rep, he doesn't think its possible at all. My only option seems to be another ZC unit that has a real controllable firebox. Dealer suggested Pacific Energy. I'm still feeling pretty gut punched about it all. hindsight 20/20 I guess.

Your chimney isn't going to work for a stove or insert no. But you could install a stove either in one space as an alcove if there is enough room or elsewhere. You can't use an insert anywhere

 

[Trogdortheburninator]

"Do not install a solid fuel burning insert or otherproducts not specified for use with this fireplace"

Directly from your manual

Directly from what manual? If you're assuming that somehow I would have a manual for a fireplace that was built into my house when I bought it, you would be wrong. I only figured out what it was from a tag on the inside of the unit after it was removed. I had no idea what this was until it was dismantled. I've been in my house for a year. If you're trying to suggest that somehow I should have known all of this before hand, I would rather you not.

And tbh, the only difference between the Kuma Cascade Insert and the free standing unit it a cover on the back over the air intake and nice looking legs. I just compared the two side by side.

 

[bholler]

Directly from what manual? If you're assuming that somehow I would have a manual for a fireplace that was built into my house when I bought it, you would be wrong. I only figured out what it was from a tag on the inside of the unit after it was removed. I had no idea what this was until it was dismantled. I've been in my house for a year. If you're trying to suggest that somehow I should have known all of this before hand, I would rather you not.

And tbh, the only difference between the Kuma Cascade Insert and the free standing unit it a cover on the back over the air intake and nice looking legs. I just compared the two side by side.

The manual for your fireplace I just looked it up.

I am not saying you should have known it beforehand. But a bit of research into what you can and can't do before buying a unit would have helped.

There is a difference legally. An insert can only go into a code compliant working fireplace. A freestanding stove has a whole different set of requirements.

 

[Trogdortheburninator]

The manual for your fireplace I just looked it up.

I am not saying you should have known it beforehand. But a bit of research into what you can and can't do before buying a unit would have helped.

There is a difference legally. An insert can only go into a code compliant working fireplace. A freestanding stove has a whole different set of requirements.

Thanks, yes I think I am aware I made a mistake. Would you care to drag me over the coals more are you done exercising your right to "told you so" ?

If I had known the fireplace was a zero clearance and the hearth was made of wood, It would have made a big difference. But there is no way to know that until it was ripped out.... and it was winter and I was not about to rip out my fireplace when it was 20 degrees outside.