I'm on my third season heating with my Eko 40. It heats the house well with 12 hours between firings on my 3500 sq house with lots of windows. Since the installation I have been upgrading the insulation where possible to increase comfort and time between firings. The house was built in 2002 and was built a little sloppy with air leaks and design flaws. At this point I have done everything I can without major demo and the house is mostly comfortable. All air sealing and insulation is done where accessible. Unfortunately, the most uncomfortable room is the living room where we spend all our time. This room is 18x25 with 18 FT cathedral ceiling and is also open to the upstairs since this is a 1.5 story house. The north wall is full of 8' tall windows wall to wall. This room always feels cool compared to the other rooms in the house. There is a wall between the family room and the kitchen. The kitchen has a 9' ceiling and is probably the warmest room as my 500 gallon storage tank is in a utility room below the kitchen. The tank is insulated but the standby loss is enough to warm up the basement utility room which also warms the kitchen above. The thermostat is in the dining room which is open to the living room and is also cool though not quite as bad as the living room. We keep the thermostat at 72 degrees. The house has forced air and I have a WAHX in the plenum for the wood heat. The ceiling below the living room is drywalled but the joists are open to the utility room where my tank is. Any clever ideas to improve the comfort of this room?
Cold family room with high ceilings
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Hi hartkem.
Increasing your mean radiant temp in the big room will make a pretty big difference in your comfort level. Panel radiators or good old cast Iron rads will do the job nicely. Plus you can size them to use lower temps to take more advantage of your storage than the WAHX can.
Good luck,
Noah
Increasing your mean radiant temp in the big room will make a pretty big difference in your comfort level. Panel radiators or good old cast Iron rads will do the job nicely. Plus you can size them to use lower temps to take more advantage of your storage than the WAHX can.
Good luck,
Noah
I have a similar issue. I feel your pain, it sucks, LOL.
My place is a tri-level. The living room has a 12' ceiling, a 30 x 60 north wall window and 8 feet x 60" east window with a 4' circle top. The living room is open to the foyer and upper floor / hallway entrance. The kitchen and dining room are up there too, but sort of separated by walls & open archways.
The baseboard heat was set up in a loop. It hits 2 registers in the kitchen, then one in the dining room, then finishes off in the living room before returning to the boiler. The design seems good for natural circulation, but the cold room is the one with the coolest water hitting it.
The LR ceiling fan is a Hunter 52" on a 4' down rod. Running it on low blowing down evens things out somewhat. But things like doing a lot of cooking or baking will heat up the kitchen & dining & satisify the T-stat up there, then the LR starts feeling cool.
My place is a tri-level. The living room has a 12' ceiling, a 30 x 60 north wall window and 8 feet x 60" east window with a 4' circle top. The living room is open to the foyer and upper floor / hallway entrance. The kitchen and dining room are up there too, but sort of separated by walls & open archways.
The baseboard heat was set up in a loop. It hits 2 registers in the kitchen, then one in the dining room, then finishes off in the living room before returning to the boiler. The design seems good for natural circulation, but the cold room is the one with the coolest water hitting it.
The LR ceiling fan is a Hunter 52" on a 4' down rod. Running it on low blowing down evens things out somewhat. But things like doing a lot of cooking or baking will heat up the kitchen & dining & satisify the T-stat up there, then the LR starts feeling cool.
I really like the appearance of many homes with cathedral ceilings and lots of windows. My wife and I even talked about raising the roof on our single story with basement home to add a cathedral ceiling to the living room that looks out to a lake, but nixed that primarily due to the cost but also we were concerned about heating in the cold winters and cooling in summer for reasons which you identify. So, what do you do now?
My vote would be for panel radiators for the cathedral ceiling living room. Panels They come in many designs, shapes and dimensions. I first saw those in the early 1980's when we visited my cousin in Germany and saw their new row house. We wondered where their heat came from, and then saw the panels cleverly and artistically blended into the wall coverings and open spaces. Low temp radiant to warm the bodies and not the huge air space in the ceiling is the way to go.
My vote would be for panel radiators for the cathedral ceiling living room. Panels They come in many designs, shapes and dimensions. I first saw those in the early 1980's when we visited my cousin in Germany and saw their new row house. We wondered where their heat came from, and then saw the panels cleverly and artistically blended into the wall coverings and open spaces. Low temp radiant to warm the bodies and not the huge air space in the ceiling is the way to go.
Air currents (set-up by convection) moving past your skin makes you cold. There are big convection currents in a big, tall room with lots of window area. Heat doesn't rise--hot AIR rises, up to your high ceiling. Use your available hot water to create true RADIANT heat, that warms objects and people "down below." Do this with panel radiators largely plumbed with pex tubing. The more radiators, the better to allow lower temp. water to be most effective. Baseboard heating, though using hot water, is largely convective, and needs really high-temp water. Don't use it. Panel radiators are your best bet.
Panel rads do sound like a good option and I could probably find a way to snake some pex down a floor joist to the far wall to install a radiator which is really the only open wall to do so. How would I integrate it into my existing system? Use the return water from the WAHX? I do have extra taps on the storage tank but I would then need a separate thermostat and another a419 controller to interupt the call for heat when the water is to cold.
Unfortunately "radiant" comes in more than one flavor. Windows are the worst. They possess everything bad when it comes to staying comfortable. First, as I mentioned, they radiate cold just as radiators radiate heat causing your body to feel cold even if the room is at a customary comfortable temperature. I had a similar room at my old place and had movable insulation (Window Quilt) installed. Had a favorite recliner within 7 feet of the glass and stubbornly refused to close the insulation 'till darkness because I enjoyed the view. I would sit there and become colder and colder until I rolled down the insulated panel. When I did it was like the room gained 5 degrees in a fraction of a second.
Their second flaw it conduction. Pretty lousy R value. You know what I 'm talking about here
Third. They make a terrific convector. The cold surface is continually being wiped by the downdraft spilling cold "wind" off the window sill and across the floor past your feet. If you covered most of your big window leaving an opening on top and on the bottom, you could possibly get enough cold air spilling from the bottom to spin a pinwheel.
Their second flaw it conduction. Pretty lousy R value. You know what I 'm talking about here
Third. They make a terrific convector. The cold surface is continually being wiped by the downdraft spilling cold "wind" off the window sill and across the floor past your feet. If you covered most of your big window leaving an opening on top and on the bottom, you could possibly get enough cold air spilling from the bottom to spin a pinwheel.
I would love to heat the floors but can't get myself to tear out perfectly good drywall to do so.
Do you mean studs are open to the utility room or the joist cavitiy ends just open there? If the studs are open you could look into a radiant wall, but it sounds like panel radiators would be a good bet. Minor drywall removal and patching required where you penetrate the floor of the living room.
Only the joist cavity ends are open. I would probably open the floor from above by cutting out some subfloor since the drywalled ceiling below is textured and looks like crap when patched. Biggest problem with the panel radiator is my couch sits right in front of the only good place to locate the radiator.
What is in front of the windows and how far off the floor do they start? I put panel radiators in front of the windows in our bedrooms. Can you put one below each window?
What about something like "trench heating"
(broken link removed to http://www.hurlconheating.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/fullsize-image/low%20profile%20trench%20web600x6001.jpg)
(broken link removed to http://www.hurlconheating.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/fullsize-image/low%20profile%20trench%20web600x6001.jpg)
You should really do an accurate heat load calc for that room, that is the only way to know what it will take to get you comfortable. The heat should be under those windows if possible to offset that cold conduction current at the glass.
I doubt 450 square feet of radiant floor could cover a load with that much glass, the numbers will tell.
High ceiling, glass rooms usually require supplemental heat when designing radiant floors.
A heater with a small fan would help "blanket" those windows with warmth. Jaga makes some nice low temp rads with variable speed blowers. you'll get a lot more output from any convector heater if you can move some air across the fins.
I was involved in a situation like this a few years ago on a house built slopeside at Okemo ski resort. The house had radiant floor but in this case the heat did not reach high enough to keep a mezzanine that accessed upper bedrooms comfortable. What they did in order to get the heat higher in the room was to install kick space heaters in the bottom of wood boxes that were on each side of the stone fireplace.
On the installation of under floor radiant: I personally would not let a textured ceiling below deter me from installing radiant. Drywall is so easy to replace that tearing out the whole ceiling is a small price to pay for comfort. Besides textured ceiling is so 70s compared to today's smooth look. I have replaced or skim coated countless ceilings in homes without any disruption of their living condition. I know many homeowners and contractors panic if sheetrock needs to be torn out but it's really easy to repair.
On the installation of under floor radiant: I personally would not let a textured ceiling below deter me from installing radiant. Drywall is so easy to replace that tearing out the whole ceiling is a small price to pay for comfort. Besides textured ceiling is so 70s compared to today's smooth look. I have replaced or skim coated countless ceilings in homes without any disruption of their living condition. I know many homeowners and contractors panic if sheetrock needs to be torn out but it's really easy to repair.
Thanks guys for all your suggestions. Today its 32 outside and the rooms is comfortable. It's mainly when it gets below 20 that the rooms starts to feel noticeably colder. I'm leaning toward removing all drywall for basement ceiling and installing radiant on the entire ceiling so the whole first floor is heated. This would also solve our cold master bathroom tile floor. This project is definitely in the future but I wasn't sure what to do. Below is a picture. Windows start at the floor
![[Hearth.com] Cold family room with high ceilings](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/149/149211-2c061185491c023f8c63cec8b2702a15.jpg?hash=PN44_NjpyF "[Hearth.com] Cold family room with high ceilings")
![[Hearth.com] Cold family room with high ceilings](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/149/149212-7e233d3d433733ad04034bd03950d6d3.jpg?hash=CiE7ecEwfx "[Hearth.com] Cold family room with high ceilings")
Beautiful space. IMO you are making he right decision. I would go heavy on the underfloor pex below the windows to slow or reverse the convective flow. Is the temperature adequate at the mezzanine/ "cat walk" level?
Doing underfloor radiant heat will be a big, messy project, and not inexpensive. Your carpet will also work against the under-floor. I'd lean towards panels if you can get a PEX line into the area. Your pics didn't clearly show it, but it looks like there's space beneath those windows to install long, narrow panels. Maybe one to the right of the hearth as well, so you get direct radiant heat.
Not sure what your return temps are, but the advantage with panels is that they can be effective at fairly low temps, though you may need to install more of them, or larger ones. Make sure your boiler is protected from return temps that are too low, typically 130 or 140, depending on the manufacturer.
As far as the bathroom, that might be worth doing radiant under the floors. I have some electric radiant under tiles, which might be an easier install, and relatively low energy cost for a small space.
Not sure what your return temps are, but the advantage with panels is that they can be effective at fairly low temps, though you may need to install more of them, or larger ones. Make sure your boiler is protected from return temps that are too low, typically 130 or 140, depending on the manufacturer.
As far as the bathroom, that might be worth doing radiant under the floors. I have some electric radiant under tiles, which might be an easier install, and relatively low energy cost for a small space.
Panel rads won't go where you need them and will interfere where there's space for them. That room is too nice to be hobbled by panel rads. Use the maximum number of transfer plates.
Are propane/gas inserts for that fireplace off the table? 
Gas throws a wicked amount of heat off.
Gas throws a wicked amount of heat off.
The fireplace is propane but we don't use it because I don't want to use propane due to cost. There isn't any space below the windows. The only place for a long panel rad would be behind the couch and I could get some pex to that area. I'll have to weigh both options
The catwalk area stays about 68 degrees. Bedrooms upstairs get cool with no heat. There is a small forced air system for upstairs only that we use in summer for a/c. Currently heating one bedroom with small electric radiator which works well as it doesn't take much heat.
The catwalk area stays about 68 degrees. Bedrooms upstairs get cool with no heat. There is a small forced air system for upstairs only that we use in summer for a/c. Currently heating one bedroom with small electric radiator which works well as it doesn't take much heat.
I highly doubt that radiant floor, alone, would ever heat that room at design or below temperatures. Three things working against you. The glass end, carpet and pad, and also the heat flux which is the room square footage minus any furnishings that go down to the floor and block the radiant emitters. I wonder if you have even 100 square feet of un-encumbered floor surface to turn into a radiant surface?
If you could get a trench style with some fans in them that would supplement the radiant.
Still, a room load calc will tell all.
If you could get a trench style with some fans in them that would supplement the radiant.
Still, a room load calc will tell all.
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What about taking out the propane fireplace and putting in a wood or pellet insert? That is what I did and was one of the best things that I could have done. Wife likes to stand in front of it to warm up when she gets home.
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