Conflicting Sabrina install opinions from local experts

[marleyandbowie]

Hi everyone. First post here but I've learned so much already by digging through the forums. I have consulted with two local pellet stove installers about the install location of a Piazzetta Sabrina. Both seemed like really good guys with tons of experience in this realm. They both think that this particular corner would be a good spot for a Sabrina, I am attaching photos here of the location, both inside and out. The Sabrina will go where the yellow side table is at the moment.

The trouble is that they recommended different ways of doing the install. One guy said we can easily go through the back wall, on the interior left side of the corner (exterior right), as there is a hair more than 5" between the 2x4 studs, and he thinks it will be fine for the pipe he has in mind. You can see that we already started opening the wall in the spot he has in mind. The other guy thought going through the back wall was a very bad idea, mentioned something about the exhaust being a square shape pipe that would not fit between the studs, and strongly recommended we needed to go vertical through the ceiling and roof.

Would love to get any opinions from the community on the best way to approach this, as it's our first stove and we want to get it right. Thanks in advance!

 

[johneh]

It is your choose
straight out would be the least expensive
Up and out would look nice (old-style wood stove look)
but the clean-out Tee would be inside some people don't like it there.
Or you can go straight up and out the roof but again Tee is in the house
Personly I like the old wood stove look
Just my nickels worth (Inflation)

 

[zrock]

i see a few issues i see with this install.. Vent is to low and someone may get burnt by the exhaust, Snow build up may burry the exhaust, and from the pic's it really does not look like that space is big enough for the pipe may be a little hammer work to get it to fit. The other issue i see is heat and windows do not get along, I have seen windows explode due to the heat off the stove that's the last thing you want in the winter...

This one is from my own experience you never want to go strait out the back of the stove, All stoves are not the same and if you change the stove in the future the outlet probably will not line up.. Ask me how i know this one...LOL

 

[marleyandbowie]

Thanks for the replies so far. Good point about the vent being low. I was assuming that there would be a right angle piece outside which would extend the exhaust upwards. That would solve the snow and potential burn safety issues correct? Isn't the pipe that goes through the wall 4"? If so there is at least an extra 1" of clearance (even though it doesn't look like it in the photo because the hole was cut too far to the left). Regarding heat - was I under the false impression that pellet stoves only push heat forward? We knew the heat would be a problem for a wood stove here, but thought we'd be okay with a pellet for that reason.

 

[zrock]

The pipe may be 4" then it has another pipe around it for air gap. Plus the inner and outer flange that is probably 8-10 inch...

 

[SidecarFlip]

Me. I prefer out the back with the the cleanout Tee outside and a vertical and vent cap on an elbow facing out. Don't see any issue with a hot vent shattering a window, not a wood stove so the venting won't get hot on the outside anyway but I would have waited to get the unit and went to Home Despot or Blowes and got some precast pavers to lift the unit up a bit first. I have mine up on a brick hearth pad with another course of pavers on top of that for added height.

 

[zrock]

It's not the vent but the radient heat of the stove that I have seen blow out windows... seen 2 this year in - weather.

 

[johneh]

Only radiant heat off my stove is off the front glass
Sides and back are just warm to the touch

 

[zrock]

Only radiant heat off my stove is off the front glass
Sides and back are just warm to the touch

Yes i know where the majority of the radiant heat comes from on a pellet stove... Just passing on what happened with 2 people i know this year.. Everything has been fine for years and well this year bang... We figure the air flow in the home pushed some of the heat towards the window more than normal. hot and cold do not get along will with glass and it must just been enough to break them.. Could also have been the gas vacuum in the glass that let go so the inside window got as cold as the outside. 1 set of windows was fairly new and the other set old and of similar design to original post. Just passing on information as i know in both cases it was a real pain to get sealed off, keep the heat in, until the new windows arrived..

 

[SidecarFlip]

Me. I prefer out the back with the the cleanout Tee outside and a vertical and vent cap on an elbow facing out. Don't see any issue with a hot vent shattering a window, not a wood stove so the venting won't get hot on the outside anyway but I would have waited to get the unit and went to Home Despot or Blowes and got some precast pavers to lift the unit up a bit first. I have mine up on a brick hearth pad with another course of pavers on top of that for added height.

Personally speaking, I don't like the install place at all. In fact, I think it sucks big time. Too much glass too close and especially the skinny corner wall. I'd be putting the unit somewhere else if it was my install. Just my 2 cents.

 

[clancey]

I agree with sidecar flip do not like the install place and for my two cents which is not much with experience I would have the pipe go straight up and out the roof..--that's just too low for me and I had a dryer vent one time that low and it was a mess,,,clancey

 

[Don2222]

I would bring in the fresh air (outside air kit) thru the back wall and then shoot the dirty exhaust through the roof to keep the soot away from the windows and house!
It is not the cheapest way but the cleanest & most efficient way for sure!

 

[SidecarFlip]

I wouldn't because that puts the cleanout Tee inside the living space and that can and will be messy to clean out. I always put my cleanout Tee outside. My install is similar but I went with 4" venting above the clean out because I had to install 2 elbow's to clear the overhanging eave

 

[Don2222]

I wouldn't because that puts the cleanout Tee inside the living space and that can and will be messy to clean out.

The inside clean out is not messy at all with the Selkirk Vacuum Cleanout. That is what I use!!
Also only one hole for exhaust and fresh air. The fresh air gets dry and warmer from being around the hot exhaust and makes any stove 10% more efficient so your heating bill is 10% less.
The old ugly venting went straight out and up with a cleanout outside and It rotted right out and made a big ash mess on the deck every time the stove was cleaned

 

[SidecarFlip]

Whatever blows you dress up... I guess. 22 years with mine and the only part that finally corroded last year was the 3-4 cleanout Tee on the outside and I burn corn which is a lot more corrosive than pellets.... and that was the cleanout cap but I replaced the entire Tee for 60 bucks. $499 bucks sounds kind of steep too. I don't much care for the short sections. I like the 8 footers. Less joints to sweat.

 

[railfanron]

If either of those windows open up I believe that might be a code issue if the pipe terminates at the outside wall and it isn't continued up and through the roof. Not sure there is enough clearance where the pipe goes through the wall.
Ron

 

[SidecarFlip]

Like I said before, I don't care for the location, code not withstanding.

 

[Don2222]

Whatever blows you dress up... I guess. 22 years with mine and the only part that finally corroded last year was the 3-4 cleanout Tee on the outside and I burn corn which is a lot more corrosive than pellets.... and that was the cleanout cap but I replaced the entire Tee for 60 bucks. $499 bucks sounds kind of steep too. I don't much care for the short sections. I like the 8 footers. Less joints to sweat.

The price is higher because of the 3 rd wall to bring in the fresh air into the burnpot that warms and drys the fresh air. It is well worth it because the ash stays so light and fluffy with no moisture content it makes the stove a breeze to keep clean. Also that round metal pipe cap unscrews and that is where you hook the vacuum up while you stick a brush down from the outside. Just so quick and easy to keep clean too!

 

[marleyandbowie]

Big thanks to everyone who has chimed in so far. I understand your very valid concerns surrounding this install location, but this is really the only spot in the house that makes sense so I feel determined to make it work somehow. I plan on doing major efficiency upgrades to this house, but for the time being I need a solid backup heat solution for the mini splits we will be installing in a few weeks, and a pellet stove checks every box for us. This room gets super cold during the winter, and positioning the stove in the corner would heat the area where we spend most of our time, and would also pump air directly into the rest of the house.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, but I wonder if seeing it in person makes a difference. For what it's worth, the guy we have lined up to do that install is very highly regarded in the area, and he said he's designing us a custom thimble for the narrow wall passage, and a custom exhaust cap that alleviates snow concerns. He said we could go through the roof if we want, but it would cost more and that roof exhausts are prone to leaks. He seems confident that this install location will be fine.

Regarding the concerns about the the windows breaking due to the heat, we're looking into having custom interior storms made, or something like Indow interior window inserts. This would reduce heat loss and also act as a protective barrier. The window to the left of the yellow table does not open, but to the right is a sliding door that opens on the right side.

Attached is a wider view of the room. Install location is back right where the yellow side table is at the moment.

 

[zrock]

That is a lot of glass...LOL..

 

[SidecarFlip]

When we had or 150 year old farmhouse professionally redone (I'm not a carpenter, never will be), the one thing we did was remove all the windows on the west side of the house (because the prevailing winter winds tend to come from the southwest and blow to the northeast) and glass in general is a poor insulator when it comes to heat loss, even if it's thermopane.

The other thing we did, years ago was plant Blue Spruce trees (that are now mature) on the west side of the house adjacent to the driveway for a wind break. Besides, I like trees, especially ones that don't drop their foilage every fall.

 

[marleyandbowie]

Sidecar - We are planning on doing something similar here, I think that makes a ton of sense. The reason there are so many windows here is because this house is on a gorgeous piece of property with Japanese gardens, meadows, and mountain views. Unfortunately the best views are to the West and North, while the Southern view is just a damp forrest and neighbors a few hundred yards away. This house gets a ton of ambient light but hardly any direct sun. So I'm thinking we'll replace the tall trees to the south with shorter species over time, allowing better solar clearance. Then we'll remove as many West and North facing windows as we can without compromising the views.

So even though this room is impractical and cold, it's a really wonderful place to spend time, and it would provide perfectly angled airflow to heat our entire first floor. It's the only spot that makes sense but if the overwhelming opinion here is that I'm begging for trouble then maybe I should ditch the pellet stove idea...

 

[SidecarFlip]

My opinion (and it may not be the opinion of others on here) is your mini splits are the answer. They are very efficient and basically trouble free. In lieu of that, I'd consider a water furnace like my hunting buddy installed (and I would as well but the ROI is too long for us at our stage of the game). His total electric bill for his home averages 70 bucks a month, winter and summer. The Water Furnace heats and cools his home very efficiently. Basically a heat pump that uses a closed loop system filled with RV antifreeze buried (directional bored) below the freeze line here (4 feet) that uses the ground water temperature (here it's 52 degrees) to feed the furnace for heating and cooling via the heat pump. He keeps his home at 70 year around. it does have a resistance grid in the unit that can be used for heat when the ambient drops below zero for an extended period but it's never energized itself yet and he has been in the home for 5 years now.

I think 70 bucks a month is a pretty good utility bill.

The issue with a biomass stove (pellet or multi fuel is), one the initial cost is high for an install and venting it correctly and it takes continuous maintenance to keep it operating plus you have to source fuel and feed it too. In my case my primary fuel is free but I'm an exception and certainly not the norm.

If I did it again (not going to), I'd install a water furnace as well.

 

[marleyandbowie]

I'd absolutely love to go Geothermal but it just isn't possible this year for multiple reasons (contractors overbooked, asbestos in basement on ductwork, etc), so I figured I'd go with a pellet stove and a couple Mr Cool DIY mini splits to get us through the next couple years and then go Geo. It really is the best system out there

 

[SidecarFlip]

Whenever you do the geothermal, hire a contractor that installs the loop by directional boring and not trenching. Directional boring is very non obtrusive and don't 'tear up' your yard.

Some systems use 2 bored wells, one to extract from and one to return to and some systems use an existing pond for water (my cousin in Illinois uses his pond) for feedwater but I like the closed loop system better (with RV antifreeze in it) because there is no chance of freezing and the anti freeze won't cause deposits in the unit either. In my in floor PEX system in the shop, I used Cryoteck antifreeze which is non toxic and contains corrosion inhibitors. I charged the system 10 years ago and I've never touched it since. I use a Grundfos circulator pump and an in slab remote bulb sensing thermostat to control the feedwater pump and allow my heat source to modulate itself based on return temp. it's 100% no touch, in fact I tend to forget about it being there, other than nice warm floors. Never shut it down. Always on, year around. In the summer, the antifreeze temp is high enough that it never cycles but as the weather gets colder and the slab temp drops, the unit will start up and hold the slab temp at my pre set level.