Convection Air Temp

[Cedarjunki]

Are you saying you don't have the ability or you stove doesn't, because a 25pdv sure does.

Not on any range of 3 or higher it doesnt. And the micro adjustment it has for low air is nearly un noticeable anyways

 

[Cedarjunki]

the low feed fuel in which only controls setting 1 & 2 on this stove is mostly to only compinsate for pellet length. But i will add another arguement into the mix for you as well.. i can only raise the low feed air on mine so whatever air is being pulled thru is not trimable even on low settings.

 

[funflyer]

the low feed fuel in which only controls setting 1 & 2 on this stove is mostly to only compinsate for pellet length. But i will add another arguement into the mix for you as well.. i can only raise the low feed air on mine so whatever air is being pulled thru is not trimable even on low settings.

I forgot Englander has so many different programs from year to year even with the same model stove. Too bad because with the ability to control the combustion air along with feed rate you could get the most from any pellet regardless of quality.

 

[Cedarjunki]

I forgot Englander has so many different programs from year to year even with the same model stove. Too bad because with the ability to control the combustion air along with feed rate you could get the most from any pellet regardless of quality.

To my understanding only the single auger englanders are capable of that.

 

[NYBurner]

got my setup yesterday, played around it and got readings 253-302F depending on which blower tube I used. The setup has 2 thermocouples and I verified they both read similar. Will secure them in this weekend when I shut it down for cleaning and start logging.

 

[funflyer]

got my setup yesterday, played around it and got readings 253-302F depending on which blower tube I used. The setup has 2 thermocouples and I verified they both read similar. Will secure them in this weekend when I shut it down for cleaning and start logging.

Those are real good numbers, you must be burning some decent pellets. How much fine tuning can you do with your stove? I bet you could squeak out even more heat, not that you'd want to run it too hot but so you can get the same heat at a lower feed rate.

 

[funflyer]

To my understanding only the single auger englanders are capable of that.

Quite possible, mine is a 2004 multifuel stove with one auger. I also made a few mods to it to get more air through the pot for the higher settings. As the fuel increased the flame got lazy with the lack of air and heat went down.

I helped a friend install a 25PDVCH (two auger) and he has the opposite issue, too much air on all settings. At the higher settings, the stove heats great but, trying to get lower temps by lowering the heat range or LFF results in the fire going out. Tape over half of the OAK inlet cured this but limits the air for higher settings. After the season we're going to look for an air damper to put in the OAK so it can be adjusted on the fly.

 

[Cedarjunki]

Quite possible, mine is a 2004 multifuel stove with one auger. I also made a few mods to it to get more air through the pot for the higher settings. As the fuel increased the flame got lazy with the lack of air and heat went down.

I helped a friend install a 25PDVCH (two auger) and he has the opposite issue, too much air on all settings. At the higher settings, the stove heats great but, trying to get lower temps by lowering the heat range or LFF results in the fire going out. Tape over half of the OAK inlet cured this but limits the air for higher settings. After the season we're going to look for an air damper to put in the OAK so it can be adjusted on the fly.

You mean 25 pdvc? It might be wiser to drop down a heat mode rather than choke it out.

 

[FirepotPete]

I wouldn't put to much into measuring different pellet brands by the temps you are getting. If you get a crap pellet you will know it just by how your stove burns, clean/dirty, a lot of ash little ash, color of the ash. I do monitor the surface temp of the stove on the front, the exhaust pipe temps and the convection fan air temps, just for peace of mind and troubleshooting. As to how accurate those are as far as real temps doesn't make much difference to me, they give me a base line as to what my stove looks like when running good, clean and efficient. That was the biggest reason to monitor these things for me, to tweak the stove on it's lowest setting, getting a good burn without going out while trimming down the exhaust temps without getting a black interior within a half a day.
The reason I wouldn't put much into if pellet A, is better than pellet B with just going by temps is that you have too many variables involved. You would have to have a controlled environment. The fresh air coming into the burn chamber would have to be at the same temp, relative humidity and dew point, with no wind. Also the convection air temps will be influenced by the interior air in the house, again, what temp that air starts at, humidity and dew points of that air. These are things you can not duplicate in the real world use of these stoves.
Use the temps to tweak your stove but I would not rule out any pellet just because of that, go with your gut feeling as to how the stove is running, that will tell you a lot. And as everyone on here knows, what stove one pellet runs good in may not burn good in another stove.

 

[jp99]

Guys - I've been a thermal engineer for 30 years and have evaluated / measured / tested my stove out the yin-yang. I've made measurements with the best of non-cryo cooled $50,000 FLIR IR cameras and taken tons of measurements.

Bottom line is this, you can get some idea of general trends, but there are way too many variables to control so you can understand some of the finer adjustments.

Remember, these stoves have some automatic controls, and then you have changes in the stove as it runs - the size of the fire, the intermittent feed rates, the buildup of ash on surfaces where you measure temperatures (ash on walls affects your magnetic thermometers; ash on the heat exchanger fins affects air temperature coming out of the stove into the room). Outside air temperatures, if you use an OAK, affect your readings as well. The speed of the distribution fan also affects the outlet temperature coming off the stove. The feed rate cycle (auger) is often automatic to some degree.

I spent the first two years taking a LOT of data measurements. That included inside conditions in the room, outside air temps, all switch and knob settings, fuel type, fuel consumption rates (I have measuring tapes attached to the hopper inside walls so I can read fuel usage). I made all kinds of adjustments and trials with different burn pots (holes different sizes), combustion fan hole outlet sizes, use of grain cover, etc., on my stove. I have as much knowledge about PC45 operations as probably anyone out there, given my testing.

So, here's what I recommend: use some measurement method that tries to minimize the variables. I have one magnetic thermometer on the left side of my stove near the top front corner. Just monitoring that one point with a method that changes slowly gives me a basic idea of how the stove is working, but not the finer points. I make sure every time I can I clean the wall up there from ash (on the inside) so the area where the thermometer is isn't insulated. Note that the outside air temp may affect this if you are using an OAK. I find this method is better than measuring the outlet temperature of the hot air coming out of the stove.

If you want some decent measurements, do a thorough stove cleaning and measure a bunch of points. Run the stove in as manual a mode as you can so the stove makes the fewest amount of automated changes you don't know about. Note the outdoor temps, and keep drafts away from probes during measurements. That can give you a pretty good baseline. Make changes and note any differences, trying to make no major changes to other conditions (same outdoor temp, etc.)

This is a fun project, from my point of view, but be careful if you think you'll get some extremely precise trends if you don't also note the other major factors.

 

[FirepotPete]

Guys - I've been a thermal engineer for 30 years and have evaluated / measured / tested my stove out the yin-yang. I've made measurements with the best of non-cryo cooled $50,000 FLIR IR cameras and taken tons of measurements.

Bottom line is this, you can get some idea of general trends, but there are way too many variables to control so you can understand some of the finer adjustments.

Remember, these stoves have some automatic controls, and then you have changes in the stove as it runs - the size of the fire, the intermittent feed rates, the buildup of ash on surfaces where you measure temperatures (ash on walls affects your magnetic thermometers; ash on the heat exchanger fins affects air temperature coming out of the stove into the room). Outside air temperatures, if you use an OAK, affect your readings as well. The speed of the distribution fan also affects the outlet temperature coming off the stove. The feed rate cycle (auger) is often automatic to some degree.

I spent the first two years taking a LOT of data measurements. That included inside conditions in the room, outside air temps, all switch and knob settings, fuel type, fuel consumption rates (I have measuring tapes attached to the hopper inside walls so I can read fuel usage). I made all kinds of adjustments and trials with different burn pots (holes different sizes), combustion fan hole outlet sizes, use of grain cover, etc., on my stove. I have as much knowledge about PC45 operations as probably anyone out there, given my testing.

So, here's what I recommend: use some measurement method that tries to minimize the variables. I have one magnetic thermometer on the left side of my stove near the top front corner. Just monitoring that one point with a method that changes slowly gives me a basic idea of how the stove is working, but not the finer points. I make sure every time I can I clean the wall up there from ash (on the inside) so the area where the thermometer is isn't insulated. Note that the outside air temp may affect this if you are using an OAK. I find this method is better than measuring the outlet temperature of the hot air coming out of the stove.

If you want some decent measurements, do a thorough stove cleaning and measure a bunch of points. Run the stove in as manual a mode as you can so the stove makes the fewest amount of automated changes you don't know about. Note the outdoor temps, and keep drafts away from probes during measurements. That can give you a pretty good baseline. Make changes and note any differences, trying to make no major changes to other conditions (same outdoor temp, etc.)

This is a fun project, from my point of view, but be careful if you think you'll get some extremely precise trends if you don't also note the other major factors.

View attachment 172864

That's a pretty stove, where can I get that high temp paint in that color?

 

[funflyer]

You mean 25 pdvc? It might be wiser to drop down a heat mode rather than choke it out.

Could be. Home Depot site showed an H on the model number. Tried all settings and all seemed to have an overly active flame. Damping some of the air made all the difference and on low settings the flame stopped going out.

 

[NYBurner]

ok quick update since I had a chance to get this setup over the weekend, also took some pics for reference. So I have an Enviro M55C insert, pic1 for reference:

I bought this thermocouple meter and 2 additional 400C K-type probes (as the ones included are only rated to 200C Max) all for roughly 21 bucks shipped via Amazon.


And this is how I mounted the probes, tried to get a good side shot to show the probes are NOT touching any metal but sitting in the middle of the tube outlet. Also the other wires are holding turbulators I made and put in (thanks to a previous thread on this forum). Also for reference the left most probe I will refer to as 'probe 1', the other as 'probe 2'.


Gonna make a second post so this one is not HUGE.

 

[NYBurner]

Ok so first I, it stayed a relative constant 22F outside, I was burning Barefoots, and I do have an OAK. All runs are on Heat setting 3, Feed trim 4, Combustion Air trim 2.

I wanted to check on the idea of choking the exhaust to 'slow' heat evacuation hence giving more time for heat to absorb into the exchangers. This creates a slightly 'dirty' burn scenario, but the idea of sending expensive heat out the chimney was bugging me so I wanted to see if this was true. I did this method first after a thorough cleaning to avoid any arguments of build up/ash issues and I let the stove run overnight to ensure solid heat soak. I have my damper slide marked where draft was set by install tech with a MAG, and had it closed a *touch more. After roughly 12 hours of burn time I took readings at 329F (Avg) Probe 1 and 230F (Avg) Probe 2. Flame was NOT black/lazy but right on of the cusp of having the edges peel off a black line (hopefully you all know what I mean) slightly small for Heat 3.

I slid open the Damper slide ~1/4" OPEN/more than the draft 'set' mark and my flame jumped noticeably within seconds and surprisingly so did the temp readings. I was honestly shocked and after 10-15 min I was seeing 363F/268F (AVG). I let it run another 30 min and temps settled back down slightly to 354/258F. I slid the damper rod open more and no noticeable improvement....so I assumed I had maxxed draft at that Combustion Air trim. I put the rod back in to ~1/4" OPEN past set mark and bumped Combustion Air trim up from 2 to 3. Temps immediately jumped again. I checked again after 30min and I had readings of 382/294F(AVG) with a MAX of 393F on probe 1. We were getting ready to head out for some errands so I backed the Feed trim from 4 down to 3. On return ~3 hours later I checked and output was 352/258F (AVG).

Will continue to play and report, hoping I can bump down feed rate more (save pellets). Also does anyone know if the M55c has some onboard 'smarts' that allows it to self regulate? I find it odd that it keeps hovering in the 350/260 range. I don't mind, heat output is good and if I can do it while burning less pellet that is even better.

Thanks for all the replies everyone and input. I agree that the data is individual and far from 'controlled' but as stated initially this is just 'trend' data that will hopefully help others or add to other data.

 

[FirepotPete]

Ok so first I, it stayed a relative constant 22F outside, I was burning Barefoots, and I do have an OAK. All runs are on Heat setting 3, Feed trim 4, Combustion Air trim 2.

I wanted to check on the idea of choking the exhaust to 'slow' heat evacuation hence giving more time for heat to absorb into the exchangers. This creates a slightly 'dirty' burn scenario, but the idea of sending expensive heat out the chimney was bugging me so I wanted to see if this was true. I did this method first after a thorough cleaning to avoid any arguments of build up/ash issues and I let the stove run overnight to ensure solid heat soak. I have my damper slide marked where draft was set by install tech with a MAG, and had it closed a *touch more. After roughly 12 hours of burn time I took readings at 329F (Avg) Probe 1 and 230F (Avg) Probe 2. Flame was NOT black/lazy but right on of the cusp of having the edges peel off a black line (hopefully you all know what I mean) slightly small for Heat 3.

I slid open the Damper slide ~1/4" OPEN/more than the draft 'set' mark and my flame jumped noticeably within seconds and surprisingly so did the temp readings. I was honestly shocked and after 10-15 min I was seeing 363F/268F (AVG). I let it run another 30 min and temps settled back down slightly to 354/258F. I slid the damper rod open more and no noticeable improvement....so I assumed I had maxxed draft at that Combustion Air trim. I put the rod back in to ~1/4" OPEN past set mark and bumped Combustion Air trim up from 2 to 3. Temps immediately jumped again. I checked again after 30min and I had readings of 382/294F(AVG) with a MAX of 393F on probe 1. We were getting ready to head out for some errands so I backed the Feed trim from 4 down to 3. On return ~3 hours later I checked and output was 352/258F (AVG).

Will continue to play and report, hoping I can bump down feed rate more (save pellets). Also does anyone know if the M55c has some onboard 'smarts' that allows it to self regulate? I find it odd that it keeps hovering in the 350/260 range. I don't mind, heat output is good and if I can do it while burning less pellet that is even better.

Thanks for all the replies everyone and input. I agree that the data is individual and far from 'controlled' but as stated initially this is just 'trend' data that will hopefully help others or add to other data.

Without some measurement of the exhaust temps you will not be able to determine if you are burning with the most efficient settings. You would want all those temps to rise and fall in a linear fashion. In other words if your convection temps rise 10% you would also want the exhaust temps to rise by no more than 10%. I say no more because on my stove at a certain point above HR5 (mid point of heat range available) I see that the exhaust temp % starts to slow down, not rising at the same % they did, while the convection temps continue to rise at about 6%. Your exhaust temps will probably be different % than the convection, but those should also be as linear as possible, slowly changing not spiking or dropping suddenly.

Also while you might get a hotter burn with opening the draft I know if I do that the stove may run hotter and seem to burn really good but after 6-8 hours the stove will go out, it slowly burns away the fuel to fast, just something to think about.

 

[NYBurner]

Hey Pete - you bring up a great point...just like tuning a motor there are plateaus in EGT while trimming timing and fuel that give a good idea whats going on. I dont have delusions of hitting a 'perfect burn', but this really helps me understand the stove, burning pellet, and ultimately distinguish between internet mumbo jumbo and actual function.

Pretty crazy on the burn being so hot the fire eventually goes out, I'll keep track on that. Im looking forward to trying this with softwood to see if the pellet types require different environments to burn correctly/'optimally'.

 

[FirepotPete]

Hey Pete - you bring up a great point...just like tuning a motor there are plateaus in EGT while trimming timing and fuel that give a good idea whats going on. I dont have delusions of hitting a 'perfect burn', but this really helps me understand the stove, burning pellet, and ultimately distinguish between internet mumbo jumbo and actual function.

Pretty crazy on the burn being so hot the fire eventually goes out, I'll keep track on that. Im looking forward to trying this with softwood to see if the pellet types require different environments to burn correctly/'optimally'.

I had no intentions of getting the perfect burn either. I went through a lot of what you are doing when I first got my stove. And yes your observations will get you a good idea as to how the stove is running and how to tweak it. My stove controls are different so I try and not input much about how I control my stove, but burning is burning so some things will be the same.Good luck!

 

[NYBurner]

This winter was so mild I never had good reason to try out the okanagan DF's, have run Platinums, have a few bags of Green Team to test, but primarily have just been running on Barefoots. I gave the stove a good cleaning this weekend (traps and chimney liner too) and tried something I haven't thought to do. Another member mentioned resetting the electronics monthly in a separate thread. I gave this a try as well and YES, the stove feed rates and burn do seem better (more as expected). Mind you outside temps were near 40F yesterday but I measured 409 - 412F air temp output Heat4, Combust Air4, Feed 2, damper slide open 50%......HOT.

I backed FEED trim to 1 and temps maintained 389-395F.

So from this season my findings so far are this:

-Do NOT choke down your fire. give it air and let it burn hot and clean, the higher burn temps will give MORE heat output into the room (provided your heat exchanger/stove is not saturated).

-Ash Cakes/Patties (big dark clumps of ash) indicate the flame could use some extra air.

-Reset your stove electronics Monthly (unplug for 30sec).

-Clean you heat exchange tubes FREQUENTLY....output air temps will drop 25-50F as ash builds up on them.

-Barefoot has been the best burn for me this season....hottest and lowest ash.

-AWF Ultra white Pine, Platinum Pellet, Green Team...all GOOD. For ME they were about 20-25F cooler than barefoot and produced a noticeably more ash that needed to be cleaned from exchange tubes and walls of the stove. Would and will burn these in the future depending on pricing relative to Barefoot.

 

[Watcher1]

Guys - I've been a thermal engineer for 30 years and have evaluated / measured / tested my stove out the yin-yang. I've made measurements with the best of non-cryo cooled $50,000 FLIR IR cameras and taken tons of measurements.

Bottom line is this, you can get some idea of general trends, but there are way too many variables to control so you can understand some of the finer adjustments.

Remember, these stoves have some automatic controls, and then you have changes in the stove as it runs - the size of the fire, the intermittent feed rates, the buildup of ash on surfaces where you measure temperatures (ash on walls affects your magnetic thermometers; ash on the heat exchanger fins affects air temperature coming out of the stove into the room). Outside air temperatures, if you use an OAK, affect your readings as well. The speed of the distribution fan also affects the outlet temperature coming off the stove. The feed rate cycle (auger) is often automatic to some degree.

I spent the first two years taking a LOT of data measurements. That included inside conditions in the room, outside air temps, all switch and knob settings, fuel type, fuel consumption rates (I have measuring tapes attached to the hopper inside walls so I can read fuel usage). I made all kinds of adjustments and trials with different burn pots (holes different sizes), combustion fan hole outlet sizes, use of grain cover, etc., on my stove. I have as much knowledge about PC45 operations as probably anyone out there, given my testing.

So, here's what I recommend: use some measurement method that tries to minimize the variables. I have one magnetic thermometer on the left side of my stove near the top front corner. Just monitoring that one point with a method that changes slowly gives me a basic idea of how the stove is working, but not the finer points. I make sure every time I can I clean the wall up there from ash (on the inside) so the area where the thermometer is isn't insulated. Note that the outside air temp may affect this if you are using an OAK. I find this method is better than measuring the outlet temperature of the hot air coming out of the stove.

If you want some decent measurements, do a thorough stove cleaning and measure a bunch of points. Run the stove in as manual a mode as you can so the stove makes the fewest amount of automated changes you don't know about. Note the outdoor temps, and keep drafts away from probes during measurements. That can give you a pretty good baseline. Make changes and note any differences, trying to make no major changes to other conditions (same outdoor temp, etc.)

This is a fun project, from my point of view, but be careful if you think you'll get some extremely precise trends if you don't also note the other major factors.

View attachment 172864

Hey JP 99 Just wondering I have a countryside now burning corn. what this worth? Not to far from me, about an hour. It looks to be at least 8 years old though. http://madison.craigslist.org/app/5442519550.html