Creosote 101 and Other 1st Year Thinkings (w/PICS)

[delp]

I did a search for "creosote" and read them all but still feel like I need to ask:

This is my first year/shoulder. Running an Englander 13, flex liner about 35+', no rain cap as I've got real old clay chimney pots, liner comes up to about 20" (so I've been told} of the top of the pot; pot sits on brick chimney that's about 5' tall. The whole thing has pour in perlite insulation.

Wood I'm burning has been sitting stacked since last Feb or so and the MC says it's anywhere from 9-17% moisture on fresh split face, mixed batch of woods cherry, locust, elm and a little oak. I got this stuff cheap off several CL posts as soon as I learned that lining the chimney was a go; the biggest haul was gray and had checked/cracked ends. ...I know, it doesn't really mean much unless I know, for sure, that it's been s/s for a year+, but this is the best I could do. I am planning on buying a cord of kiln dried from a reputable dealer as winter sets in and leaving the other wood to sit for the next season.

So, I've only had 10-15 fires, tops, and have burned "hot," i.e., stove top thermometer is reading 600-700. I bought two SootEaters recently from Northline. I wanted to see what, if anything, was on the flue before I start burning more frequently and longer. Yesterday I did a bottom up cleaning and this is what I got (see pics/one is an extreme close-up); it's a teaspoon, at best, and it seemed that the bulk of it came down from up high in the flue. I was expecting dust, but got what looks like crunchy mouse turds, although, really, they are no more than 1/32 - 1/8" width. Thoughts?

Questions about creosote and other stuff:

1. Assuming the wood is dry (15% or less), does creosote form as the fire dies down and the stove top temp drops?

2. Same question, but in reverse, is there creosote production as the fire gets going?

3. If the wood is not perfect, aside from not burning it, is there a way to prevent creosote from forming.

4. Where's the best place to put the thermometer on the 13NC?

5. How many split pieces of wood are you 24/7 burners going through in a day? I figure most winter weekend I'm going to be burning all day (but not overnight). Just trying to figure out how much wood I'll need, as I do not want to run out in February....(!)

More to come sometime soon, I'm sure, but would love thoughts on these things.

Alina -enjoying the cold and snow at 76deg in the house!

 

[sebring]

Burn for a month then clean your chimney. That will tell you more than anything else can.

 

[48rob]

Questions about creosote and other stuff:

1. Assuming the wood is dry (15% or less), does creosote form as the fire dies down and the stove top temp drops?

2. Same question, but in reverse, is there creosote production as the fire gets going?

Hi Alina,

My experience with my stove has been that creosote is created when a new fire is lit, before temperatures get up high enough to prevent it from being deposited on the glass and in the flue.

Once the fire/stove gets hot enough, I believe it negates any ill effect of creosote in the flue, by buring it off.

When the fire is dying out, or when I try to stretch out the burn times too much by limiting the amount of air fed to the fire, the flue temperaturs cool down and allow creosote to form again, but unlike at startup, the deposits are "laid" in the flue over several hours versus a few minutes.

I've determined the answer to be; do your best to keep all fires burning hot, load more often, and just use common sense in checking the flue regularly to be sure that if there is a build up, you can clean it out before it becomes a danger.

Rob
PS. The crunchy stuff I usually get in the last foot or so of the pipe before the cap, as it naturally is much cooler there.

 

[HotCoals]

Rob is on track imo..but..there is always that but..lol.
I don't think that having a big hot fire will clean your chimney..unless it catches on fire.

It's my understanding that the old timers used to have a hot fire once a day is so if there was much crap in the chimney it would catch fire and burn off a little instead of a lot.
I don't really buy into that either.
As most on here say check your chimney often..for sure if you are new to wood burning or even if it's a different stove or set up.
Stay warm!

 

[shawneyboy]

Another but... When the wood gets to true coaling stage the gasses that create creosote are no longer there. Now if you have a random split that hasn't truely reached coal stage and is still outgassing that is a different story.

Shawn

 

[csierotnik]

good post, I am looking forward to more replies.

 

[delp]

Thanks, Rob, and everyone else, for your thoughtful replies.

Removing the reburn tubes on the 13NC and snapping 12 rods together on the the Soot Eater is no picnic, but I think frequent cleanings will provide the clearest answers.

Burning well seasoned wood is the most obvious thing, but it really helps to begin to understand the stages at which the wood gives off the gases that produce creosote and other crud buildup.

Again, thanks you, and to all be safe and warm this winter.

Alina

 

[chvymn99]

Questions about creosote and other stuff:

4. Where’s the best place to put the thermometer on the 13NC? I put mine between the stove pipe and the front lip. Then I put another 18" above the stove top on the pipe.

5. How many split pieces of wood are you 24/7 burners going through in a day? I figure most winter weekend I’m going to be burning all day (but not overnight). Just trying to figure out how much wood I’ll need, as I do not want to run out in February….(!) Depends on your split size. After getting a feel for mine I split a lot more of my wood in smaller splits (10" to 16" long) and leaving some bigger just for overnight burns. I get any where from 3 to about 6 splits in the stove at a time. I do keep the ash level lower than probably most, I try to keep every 5 to 8 burns, dependant upon the wood that is being used. But keeping the ash level (1 1/2 to 2" deep) lower, allows me more wood area. Good Luck.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Questions about creosote and other stuff:

1. Assuming the wood is dry (15% or less), does creosote form as the fire dies down and the stove top temp drops?

2. Same question, but in reverse, is there creosote production as the fire gets going?

3. If the wood is not perfect, aside from not burning it, is there a way to prevent creosote from forming.

4. Where's the best place to put the thermometer on the 13NC?

5. How many split pieces of wood are you 24/7 burners going through in a day? I figure most winter weekend I'm going to be burning all day (but not overnight). Just trying to figure out how much wood I'll need, as I do not want to run out in February....(!)

More to come sometime soon, I'm sure, but would love thoughts on these things.

Alina -enjoying the cold and snow at 76deg in the house!

1. No. As the fire dies down there is little smoke and no threat of creosote forming. On the other hand, beware that as it begins to get really cold outside and you are burning more wood, you might find yourself with a coaling problem. That is, too many coals. The worse your wood is the more coals you'll have too. We've found that no matter what the state of your wood, just before the fire reaches that stage where it is all coals, we turn the draft full open. The temperature of the stove and chimney won't vary much at this stage and you'll get those coals burned down before adding more wood. Just don't burn them down too far because a nice bed of coals makes things work nice. We see every year where folks are actually scooping hot coals out of their stove because they don't have enough room to put much wood in. That is sad to see.

2. Yes, while getting the fire going it can create all sorts of nasty things. If you have problem getting the wood started burning nicely you'll no doubt find some creosote problems. Getting the flue temperature up is the first order of business but don't leave that draft open full for too long else you are just moving a lot of hot air up the chimney rather than into the stove and then into your house to warm you.

3. Not much. Some have used the creosote logs and claim they work. There really is no good substitute for good dry wood.

4. I'll let someone else answer this one.

5. How many splits anyone uses has too many variables to be of value. For instance, the size of the stove, the size of the house, the type of wood, the state of the wood, etc., etc.

Good luck to you.

 

[delp]

Dennis, thank you, that info and wisdom really helps.

I have great draft with the 35' flue liner, and it doesn't take much to get temps up to 500 and still not feel reckless and out of control.

First two or three fires I definitely acted like a first-time driver, that is, slow and overly cautious. Maybe that's where the "mouse turds" came from?

I'm also learning that the secondary burns happen, and that I don't need to shut the draft down all the way to enjoy the light show and heat benefits.

As I've said before, you are very present in my mind when it comes to the truth of the NEED for well seasoned wood. I'm pretty sure that the batch I have is burnable. I just want the day to come where I've got a system down that allows me to be more than just "sure" and more "100% certain" that the wood is well seasoned.

Great responses, thank you!

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Thankyou delp. It does take a little time to learn the stove. We even had a learning curve here when we installed the Fireview although I've ran many stoves. But fortunately, the learning curve is very short. Pick a few weekends when you can be around and try different settings and also try for some long burns.

 

[oilstinks]

My thermometer is directly in front of the pipe touching the outlet although the one time i overfired i seen athe stove faintly red just to the right and slightly back of the pipe outlet. I could only see it with the lights off so i guess that is the hotest part of my stove. Maybe the metal is thinner on mine right there for some reason. I also have one 18" up on the pipe. Ive found that the creasote sweeping granuals make it dry and flakey easier to remove when i brush.

 

[delp]

Good, thanks Oilstinks, I've got mine in front of the pipe right in the center between the edge of the stove and the pipe. Unfortunately, or whatever, my liner quickly and inaccessibly disappears into the chimney so I can't use a thermometer in the flue. I think that makes three of us putting the thermometer in that spot, so that's good. I remember reading posts where folks put the therm just above the door on the right, which stuck with me, but I don't recall the stove being used by them.

 

[firefighterjake]

Dennis, thank you, that info and wisdom really helps.

I have great draft with the 35' flue liner, and it doesn't take much to get temps up to 500 and still not feel reckless and out of control.

First two or three fires I definitely acted like a first-time driver, that is, slow and overly cautious. Maybe that's where the "mouse turds" came from?

I'm also learning that the secondary burns happen, and that I don't need to shut the draft down all the way to enjoy the light show and heat benefits.

As I've said before, you are very present in my mind when it comes to the truth of the NEED for well seasoned wood. I'm pretty sure that the batch I have is burnable. I just want the day to come where I've got a system down that allows me to be more than just "sure" and more "100% certain" that the wood is well seasoned.

Great responses, thank you!

While it's true that you may not need or even be able to shut down all the way and still have a sustainable secondary burn . . . generally if you can go lower with the air AND still have a sustained secondary the better off you will be as less air flow = not as much heat leaving the stove quite so quickly . . . of course the key being if the secondary burn is still sustained so you are burning cleanly. Not all stoves and set ups will be able to be closed completely . . . the condition of the wood also plays a role in how low you can go.

 

[firefighterjake]

I did a search for "creosote" and read them all but still feel like I need to ask:

This is my first year/shoulder. Running an Englander 13, flex liner about 35+', no rain cap as I've got real old clay chimney pots, liner comes up to about 20" (so I've been told} of the top of the pot; pot sits on brick chimney that's about 5' tall. The whole thing has pour in perlite insulation.

Wood I'm burning has been sitting stacked since last Feb or so and the MC says it's anywhere from 9-17% moisture on fresh split face, mixed batch of woods cherry, locust, elm and a little oak. I got this stuff cheap off several CL posts as soon as I learned that lining the chimney was a go; the biggest haul was gray and had checked/cracked ends. ...I know, it doesn't really mean much unless I know, for sure, that it's been s/s for a year+, but this is the best I could do. I am planning on buying a cord of kiln dried from a reputable dealer as winter sets in and leaving the other wood to sit for the next season. Your wood supply sounds pretty darned good.

So, I've only had 10-15 fires, tops, and have burned "hot," i.e., stove top thermometer is reading 600-700. I bought two SootEaters recently from Northline. I wanted to see what, if anything, was on the flue before I start burning more frequently and longer. Yesterday I did a bottom up cleaning and this is what I got (see pics/one is an extreme close-up); it's a teaspoon, at best, and it seemed that the bulk of it came down from up high in the flue. I was expecting dust, but got what looks like crunchy mouse turds, although, really, they are no more than 1/32 - 1/8" width. Thoughts? Not bad.

Questions about creosote and other stuff:

1. Assuming the wood is dry (15% or less), does creosote form as the fire dies down and the stove top temp drops? No . . . or not much. Most of the bad stuff is produced early in the burning process . . . when you reach the coaling stage even though the stove top and/or flue temp is dropping you probably don't have to worry so much about creosote production.

2. Same question, but in reverse, is there creosote production as the fire gets going? Yes . . . cool temps are not good . . . but don't fear . . . it will take some time to produce creosote in appreciable levels if your only "problem" is a bunch of cold starts . . . more problematic are folks burning unseasoned or less than optimal wood PLUS burning at too low a temp OR doing the first two things and then burning at too high a temp as the first two issues will produce creosote and the last issue can cause that creosote to ignite.

3. If the wood is not perfect, aside from not burning it, is there a way to prevent creosote from forming. Not really . . . I mean the real key is to burn at the proper temp and burn seasoned wood. If you do these two things creosote production should be minimalized . . . add in regular inspectino and sweeping and there should be few issues. You can help yourself if your wood is truly not seasoned by adding pallets or dimensional lumber scraps to help dry out the semi-seasoned wood more quickly . . . but again . . . I think your wood isn't so bad. Chimney sweeping logs and powder are sold . . . but I would simply save your money and inspect and clean on a regular basis if you are really concerned.

4. Where's the best place to put the thermometer on the 13NC? Calling all Englander owners . . .

5. How many split pieces of wood are you 24/7 burners going through in a day? I figure most winter weekend I'm going to be burning all day (but not overnight). Just trying to figure out how much wood I'll need, as I do not want to run out in February....(!) Hard to say . . . I've never counted individual splits . . . and a lot depends on the stove (cat or non-cat), type of wood (size, species, how well seasoned it is), how hot you like the home (cooler vs. hotter than Hades), etc. My own advice . . . wood doesn't really spoil like milk and if you've got it off the ground will be very, very nice for the start of next year if you have extra left over by the end of winter . . . more is always good . . . no one complains about having too much wood left over at the end of winter . . . far more people cry out when their wood runs out in March.

More to come sometime soon, I'm sure, but would love thoughts on these things.

Alina -enjoying the cold and snow at 76deg in the house!