Creosote - Risky business - pics

[Green Energy]

This is a message I posted earlier at https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/45292/#496547 that I thought I would start a new thread with the pics:

I know the cat’s supposed to take care of a lot of it but that’s only when it’s engaged so I figured there would likely be 2-4 hrs (or so) on the back end of those long, long burns where a lot of creosote could form? Or, have you found they’re both (cat & non-cat) about the same irt creosote because by the time they both begin cooling down the wood is burned to the point that there isn’t much soot creation in either type? Anyone with experiences using both types irt creosote?

I have a lot of experience burning a large cat stove 24/7. A lot of overnight or “gone to work” packed firebox at 500F, with the air turned down, which slowly drops to a low fire. Over the years, I was surprised at how little creosote I got in my chimney cleaning. I was also using an exterior chimney, 11 x 11, 24’ high, with a direct connect that just dumped the smoke above the smoke damper and shelve. The stove had a 8” flue and when I installed it, I knew that it was on the margin in terms of having too much cross section in the chimney. I would usually get about a half a bag (paper grocery bag) of creosote on my annual cleaning. I burned between 2 and 3 cords/year. Usually OK seasoned oak, but sometimes it steamed alittle (less than fully dry). I sure I got a lot more creosote than folks with insulated chimney liners, but less than I expected. I did not think I was endanger of a chimney fire. So was fairly amazed that I did not get more creosote, and it made me a little cavalier about being careful about creosote.

Last winter, early Feb, my 18 year old cat, which was fraying in spots, totally crumbled. I don’t think it was working very well most of the winter. I continued to burn for another month with out the cat. When I went to clean the chimney, burning without a cat, with my setup, and the way I burned, was much riskier than I realized. I had major creosote build up. The chimney cap was getting close to closing up with creosote coating the bird screen mesh. I got almost 2 cubic feet of creosote out with my brushing. (Pics to follow). My lesson is that the cat secondary burning is very important to the first and middle part of a burn. Even though the later part of the burn, the cat loses enough temp to be effective, as someone noted, it is in the charcoal stage, so it is not a major producer of creosote.

I now have a full chimney liner, insulated with a good rockwool kit, full block off plates at the top and bottom, and I am burning a non-cat Jotul Olso F 500. Also, I am hoping to be more careful with my wood, burnig better seasoned wood, but probably not super dry. I’ll let you know my comparison of creosote after I do my cleaning. I probably will do a mid winter cleaning to be safe.

[Pictures show what can lead to a chimney fire. Ignorance is no excuse]

 

[quads]

Can't tell for sure from the pics, but some of that looks like it burned already. It gets brittle, crunchy, and light when it burns. Kind of puffs up and bubbly looking.

 

[maplewood]

Can't tell for sure from the pics, but some of that looks like it burned already. It gets brittle, crunchy, and light when it burns. Kind of puffs up and bubbly looking.

Hmmm.... I've seen some creosote that was brittle, crunchy and light.... I always thought a chimney fire was a roaring train wreck. Can you have a tiny, non-harmful creosote fire?

Thanks for the pics of your cat-effects. Very informative. Glad you caught it!

 

[Green Energy]

It is definitely light and crunchy on the chimney cap. Just sort of flacked off. May by there was a fire I did not know about.

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Being new to the "field" and not yet knowing what creosote looks like, I see two different substances in your photos; one is black and gunky looking, and the other is lighter colored and puffy. Any idea the difference b/w these two?

 

[begreen]

Good lesson learned. Thanks for sharing it GE.

 

[joe245]

Since we are talking about creosote build up has anyone tried any of the creosote remover products from Rutland or the like. I just installed a wood insert(non cat with S/S liner) They say they are for air tight inserts. Like I said, just put it in a week ago so I haven’t checked the manufacturer of the insert or liner. I was not looking for a quick fix if you will but something that I could use to get me to the early spring so I’m not sledging on the roof,if we have snow.

 

[woodgeek]

Really interesting post--makes sense and could be seen as a pitch for cat stoves (I am interested in a cat when I upgrade).

If I understand the (quoted) OP: you were worried that at the end of the (w/cat) burn cycle you might get some creosote, if the cat dropped below its operating temp. Seems unlikely--if the cat turned off while you still had some coals burning you would have a 'smoldering' charcoal fire, which might exhaust some CO, but shouldn't put much/any creosote. Of course, you didn't get much--presumably formed during bypass operation??

 

[quads]

Can't tell for sure from the pics, but some of that looks like it burned already. It gets brittle, crunchy, and light when it burns. Kind of puffs up and bubbly looking.

Hmmm.... I've seen some creosote that was brittle, crunchy and light.... I always thought a chimney fire was a roaring train wreck. Can you have a tiny, non-harmful creosote fire?

Thanks for the pics of your cat-effects. Very informative. Glad you caught it!

Yes, you can definitely have tiny, non-harmful creosote fires. Actually, if you are having a creosote problem and not aware of it, small chimney fires could end up saving your life. The creosote burns before it builds up enough to have a BIG chimney fire! In the old days they used to intentionally have small chimney fires for that reason. Of course, prevention, inspection, and maintenance are always the best/safest way.

 

[quads]

Being new to the "field" and not yet knowing what creosote looks like, I see two different substances in your photos; one is black and gunky looking, and the other is lighter colored and puffy. Any idea the difference b/w these two?

The black, gunky, sticky or shiny stuff is the dangerous creosote that burns. The lighter colored puffy stuff has most likely already burned.

 

[Jerry045]

Hmmm.... I've seen some creosote that was brittle, crunchy and light.... I always thought a chimney fire was a roaring train wreck. Can you have a tiny, non-harmful creosote fire?

Thanks for the pics of your cat-effects. Very informative. Glad you caught it!

Indeed it is a roaring train wreck; I experienced it three years ago. Hopefully there were no consequences; but I had to change the chimney.

Jerry

 

[quads]

It is definitely light and crunchy on the chimney cap. Just sort of flacked off. May by there was a fire I did not know about.

That's my guess; sometime you already had at least one chimney fire. Chimney fires aren't always big roaring things. The really bad ones are, but sometimes you might only hear a sound like rain falling in the chimney or pipe with the smaller fires. Or worse, you weren't home or were sleeping when it happened.

 

[quads]

Hmmm.... I've seen some creosote that was brittle, crunchy and light.... I always thought a chimney fire was a roaring train wreck. Can you have a tiny, non-harmful creosote fire?

Thanks for the pics of your cat-effects. Very informative. Glad you caught it!

Indeed it is a roaring train wreck; I experienced it three years ago. Hopefully there were no consequences; but I had to change the chimney.

Jerry

You had a large chimney fire.

 

[pgmr]

Last winter, early Feb, my 18 year old cat, which was fraying in spots, totally crumbled. I don’t think it was working very well most of the winter.

18 years using the same catalyst?! That's got to be a record.

Why the switch to non-cat Jotul?

 

[Green Energy]

Last winter, early Feb, my 18 year old cat, which was fraying in spots, totally crumbled. I don’t think it was working very well most of the winter.

18 years using the same catalyst?! That's got to be a record.

Why the switch to non-cat Jotul?

I still have the old Dutchwest in the garage in case I want to go back. Only problem is that I put in a 6" liner, and the DW needs a 8". So probably won't go back to it. I probably only burned the DW cat for 14 or 15 seasons. I put a high eff. condensing nat gas furnace in my old house and took a break for a couple years. Some years I probably only burned 1-2 cords. Most I ever burn is 2-3. (Thanksgiving to St. Patty's Day). But I understand that I had a good run w/ this cat to last that long. I was not fully convinced that replacing the stove was the way to go. I was seriously considering rebuilding it with a replacement cat. I guess the tax credit tipped me to buying a new stove.

The two things I really like about the new stove is: (1) the light show is incredible compare with my old stove which was always cloudy/foggy, if not opake window (2) it heats up much faster to bring on the secondary burn 30 min v. 45 - 60 min. The one disadvantage seems to be that I won't get the long medium to low burns, overnight and gone-to-work fires that last, at least to a good hot bed of coals till I can get back (e.g., 8-10 hours). I guess I'll learn to be happy with 4 to 6 hours and hope for coals at 8 hrs.

 

[Green Energy]

Being new to the "field" and not yet knowing what creosote looks like, I see two different substances in your photos; one is black and gunky looking, and the other is lighter colored and puffy. Any idea the difference b/w these two?

You are probably referring to the picture of the inside of the chimney with the darker, smooth black. This pic was taken after I brushed the chimney but could not get the last foot or two above the smoke shelve. You see the flaky stuff that did not get brushed. The shiny smooth dark black stuff above it does not come off with a chimney brush. All that was on the cap was the crunchy, light popcorn stuff.

 

[Green Energy]

It is definitely light and crunchy on the chimney cap. Just sort of flacked off. May by there was a fire I did not know about.

That's my guess; sometime you already had at least one chimney fire. Chimney fires aren't always big roaring things. The really bad ones are, but sometimes you might only hear a sound like rain falling in the chimney or pipe with the smaller fires. Or worse, you weren't home or were sleeping when it happened.

There was a time or two that I though I might be having a chimney fire, after I put in a big load and let it run with a lot of air. The draft seemed to be too good. I shut down the air and went out to check to see if the chimney was spitting or smoking and it did not look to be so I did not think too much of it. Turning down the air seemed to controlled the draft, and stopped the heavy air movement. Also, I was careful to not leave the stove right after putting in a big load and firing it on high. But I now realize that I was skating on thin ice, real thin at times.

After hearing from the forum and seeing the results, I guess there was a minor fire. Sure am glad that I have gone to the liner and am definitely going to be more careful with seasoned wood and inspecting the cap and inside of the liner.

This forum is a great source of education/training.

 

[argus66]

so what is better cat or non cat? i have non cat jotul f3 cb fully lined pipe i burn 4 cords a winter seasoned 1 yr wood, this yr had 2 cups of soot and just a little creosote. so i guess im doing well.

 

[Green Energy]

so what is better cat or non cat? i have non cat jotul f3 cb fully lined pipe i burn 4 cords a winter seasoned 1 yr wood, this yr had 2 cups of soot and just a little creosote. so i guess im doing well.

My last season with the cat stove was not typical in terms of my creosote, the last third being without a cat, the first 2/3, it prbably was on its way out. My typical cleanings were never as good as yours either. But given my setup was on the margin, a 8" flue dumping into an 11 x 11" 20' high chimney, I am not incline to blame the cat that I got some soot. I had not discovered the forum and thought it was normal. Even after discovering the forum, I thought long and hard about rebuilding the old girl with a new cat.

I am now going to be a non-cat wood burner for, hopefully a long time. But the reasons I went for the Olso F 500 were not because of it's being a non-cat. Basically, I needed a stove with a rear discharge lower than 27" high, at least 2 CF firebox, and an ash pan. (I have been reading about ash pan v. not using the ash pan, but I really like the ash pan on my old stove so I thought it to be a must-have.) The Olso, w/ the short leg kit, met those criteria. Because it seems to get very good, widespread reviews, I decided to take a chance on a non-cat stove. So far, after a few fires, I am glad I went with the Oslo. (It was 74 F yesterday and today, so we are enjoying Indian Summer and saving the wood for when it gets cold). I am still reserving my final judgement until February, after I see how I do with weeks of 24/7 burning.

 

[Green Energy]

One thing that I was very disappointed with on my old stove was the almost useless window that was alway clouded over. I must say that the promise of a clear window with the light shows was enticing.

 

[firefighterjake]

. . .

I still have the old Dutchwest in the garage in case I want to go back . . .

Trust me . . . you will not go back. Give it a year and then let us know what you think.

 

[mellow]

I am in the same boat as you, this crazy weather, atleast I got a chance to try out the new stove this past weekend, but I will reserve my full review of the new stove until later next year when I have had a chance to run it full time. I too have switched from a cat stove to non cat to give them a try, figure I can't bash another type of stove until I have tried it

Where you at in MD?

 

[Beanscoot]

"Last winter, early Feb, my 18 year old cat, which was fraying in spots, totally crumbled."

Sorry about the loss of your cat. But it's often better if they go suddenly, rather than suffering and slowly crumbling over months.

My own cat is now just over ten years old, and her beautiful grey fur is also starting to fray in spots, but she is still quite healthy and active.

 

[THEMAN]

Ok excuse my ignorance but I didn't see anywhere in the post that stated how you had your old stove hooked up. I assumed you had a liner but no insulatoin, but judging from the pic's it looks like you had a direct connect from your stove to the chimney am I correct? This is why there was creosote build up on the chimney itself, or is that build up with the uninsulated liner?