Dealing with Electric Co. - Service Upgrade

[Ashful]

We have had trouble with our electric power supply since we moved into this house, and I'm not sure the best way to address the issue.

The newer houses in our neighborhood all seem to have a 200 kW transformer planted in their front yard, with a nice short 240V x 400A run to the house (usually as dual 200A feeds), and several of these houses are half the size of ours. None of the utility people who have come out to mark underground wires have been able to tell me where my transformer may be, but based on the wiring they've marked out, my 240V feed seems to be headed toward a large transformer about a quarter mile up the street from my house. We have a single 200A service feed for roughly 8000 sq.ft.

Our lights dim every time a major appliance kicks on. With three air conditioning systems, soon to be a fourth as we expand, the lights seem to be constantly dimming and then surging in summer. It appears to be an issue with the mains, as the whole house dims and surges together, it's not an issue of loading on individual circuits.

So, how do I approach the electric company, with the aim at getting our voltage stability corrected? I assume the proper solution is to up-size the mains wiring, as I'd rather not have a new transformer planted in my front yard, but I fear that could easily back-fire on me. Also, what is my responsibility, versus the electric company? I assume it is their responsibility to provide me a constant 230V +/- 5% to the meter socket, for whatever my full load may be, and they would be responsible for any equipment upgrade required to maintain that. Would this be correct? Are they going to try to argue that the house size was increased after service was run, and it's therefore my responsibility to pay for a new feed?

 

[Wisneaky]

I'm not sure in your area. I have a much smaller house than you, but when I upgraded from 60a to 200a service they didn't change me any fee for the change over to different lines and meter.

 

[heat seeker]

Are you sure the problem is not in your house wiring? How do your next door neighbors' systems behave?

You could put a recording meter on your incoming line and monitor the voltage coming in over a period of time. A printed chart of voltage swings would certainly bolster your case.

ETA: what is your incoming voltage? You do not mention doing any voltage checks.

 

[Ashful]

Incoming voltage varies quite a bit, heat seeker, although I don't have any equipment for conveniently logging and plotting it. I hear people talk about the electric company installing equipment to monitor your line voltage in some situations like this, but don't know if it's anything more than talk. Likewise on smart meters, which I may already have, as they had to replace my meter a year ago.

The neighbors don't report any similar trouble... they all have 13 kV lines running almost to their front doors, and vastly shorter 240V mains for smaller houses.

@Wisneaky, on what basis was the decision made to upgrade from 60A to 200A? I know 60A is stupid small by today's standards, so an upgrade is almost obligatory in that case, but who initiated the request?

 

[Wisneaky]

Incoming voltage varies quite a bit, heat seeker, although I don't have any equipment for conveniently logging and plotting it. I hear people talk about the electric company installing equipment to monitor your line voltage in some situations like this, but don't know if it's anything more than talk. Likewise on smart meters, which I may already have, as they had to replace my meter a year ago.

The neighbors don't report any similar trouble... they all have 13 kV lines running almost to their front doors, and vastly shorter 240V mains for smaller houses.

@Wisneaky, on what basis was the decision made to upgrade from 60A to 200A? I know 60A is stupid small by today's standards, so an upgrade is almost obligatory in that case, but who initiated the request?

I actually asked for the upgrade. I paid an electrician to install a new line from the new meter inside and had him put in new breaker box and breakers. Electric company came over and did all the outside work new meter and lines for no fee.

 

[Ashful]

Cool. Yes, there will be some re-configuration here, too. This is sort of prompted by the fact that I want to upgrade one of my five sub-panels from 60A to 100A. It's beyond absurd that we have so many large sub-panels hanging off of one 200A box, but that blame goes on prior electricians and owners.

 

[peakbagger]

I expect its inside the home, but in most states, the utility has to supply voltage within a certain range of voltage. If the utility cant supply this, they have to upgrade the system until they can. A friend of mine had problems with his grid tied solar. It would kick out at times due to out of spec utility voltage. It took the utility weeks to figure it out all on their dime. Turned out they had equipment that was not being operated correctly and were surging the lines routinely. Some utilities are better than others so you may have to go to the public agency regulating them to get the utility motivated. The first thing they will do is install a clamp on meter and see if there are incoming sags on the voltage.

 

[ironpony]

When I did mine here, I had to do all the trenching in the right of way from the pole to the house. They then ran 500 ft set a transformer on the corner of the property and ran to the house meter. also had to cover the cost of COPPER wire for the 1000 foot run. 400 amp coming in, split to two 200 amp panels. Good luck, yours probably came in from the closet "pole" at the time. Depending on type of wire buried "maybe AL." and how long it has been there it could be compromised. That is why I paid for copper, was hearing a lot about Al. failures when buried.

 

[Ashful]

Yes, this is buried Al.

@peakbagger, what do you suppose in the home, other than 4' of wire from meter to main breaker, could cause the entire house to surge together? I'm not denying there are deficiencies internal, as there are in any house of this age and size, but I can't imagine any of them tied to this problem. Don't be afraid to get technical with me, I have an MSEE, and 20 years experience as an electrical engineer, albeit not on the utility end of things.

 

[Jags]

I had a similar problem several years ago. I monitored the wall voltage as I started kicking on any electrical load. I would kick them on one at a time. Each load dropped the voltage by a small amount until I actually got below 108V at the outlet I was testing. I tested several outlets on different breakers with all the same results. This basically told me I had a supply problem. It took the linemen quite a bit of time to figure it out. They replaced the transformer on the poll - no change (and I am the only one on the transformer). Found out that they needed to crank up the line voltage going TOO my transformer somewhere down the road. Cured the problems I was having.

And yes, there is a min. voltage that they are required to supply your home with. It may change from utility to utility, but I would imagine Google has that answer.

 

[ironpony]

my theory based on what I have personally seen done and answers I have gotten on projects over the years.

The original Al. wire was sized for the house at the time and the load was significantly less than it is now.
The Al wire has corrosion, reducing efficiency. Seen this quite often recently.
The Wire was under size for the original load, common practice by power companies, and now with the increase is significantly undersized.
I asked one time, Why do I have to run x size wire to the meter head and you run 2 sizes smaller than I have to. I was told we will worry about our wire you worry about yours.
I believe you are seeing voltage drop due to one of the above, you need to get the utility to verify.

 

[peakbagger]

I expect with your issues you could have a dirty/loose/corroded connection in the meter box or the main panel. An IR camera might be able to see a hot spot but unfortunately its cant see into the meter connection. Its worth chasing as a connection like that eventually can cause a fire. A recording clampon meter should tell all.

AL wire even if torqued and prepped with Nolox is still prone to bad connections and may require retorquing. I have known electricians who retorque their incoming cables every couple of years. (I dont mess with anything on the utility side of the main breaker) Utility meter boxes are supposed to be rain proof but they usually are not.

 

[DBCOOPER]

Yes, this is buried Al.

@peakbagger, what do you suppose in the home, other than 4' of wire from meter to main breaker, could cause the entire house to surge together? I'm not denying there are deficiencies internal, as there are in any house of this age and size, but I can't imagine any of them tied to this problem. Don't be afraid to get technical with me, I have an MSEE, and 20 years experience as an electrical engineer, albeit not on the utility end of things.

The main breaker could be causing it.

 

[Ashful]

I expect with your issues you could have a dirty/loose/corroded connection in the meter box or the main panel. An IR camera might be able to see a hot spot but unfortunately its cant see into the meter connection.

The main breaker could be causing it.

This was my first thought, when I moved into this house, as I have seen that before. Unfortunately, it does not appear to be the case here. I have already used the Flir IR camera to inspect entire main box, and all temps are holding very close to room temperature.

I had a similar problem several years ago. I monitored the wall voltage as I started kicking on any electrical load. I would kick them on one at a time. Each load dropped the voltage by a small amount until I actually got below 108V at the outlet I was testing. I tested several outlets on different breakers with all the same results. This basically told me I had a supply problem. It took the linemen quite a bit of time to figure it out. They replaced the transformer on the poll - no change (and I am the only one on the transformer). Found out that they needed to crank up the line voltage going TOO my transformer somewhere down the road. Cured the problems I was having.

Same here. They have been out three times in three years to adjust my voltage. One day I came home, and noticed my lights were all dim. I checked my voltage, and it was 105 at each 115V receptacle, and 208V across the mains. They sent out a lineman who adjusted something somewhere (no where in sight of my house, which is why I think the transformer is at a great distance from my house), and the voltage came up to normal.

A few weeks later, I came home, and all my lights were blaringly bright. Checked the voltage again, and it was running something like 265V on the mains. Again, linemen came out, and adjusted me back to 230'ish. A few weeks after that, dim again... they came out a third time, and this time they said they disabled the auto-ranging tap on the transformer, setting me on a fixed tap.

The nominal voltage seems to have held normal since then (haven't measured, but also haven't seen any unusual dim or bright in my lighting). However, it still dips each time a major appliance kicks on. In fact, each time I turn on my kitchen lights (450W), my computer UPS (completely separate circuit) screams at me. When monitoring the mains, I can see the voltage drop each time the AC kicks on, but have no automated means of logging this.

 

[Jags]

Everything that you are reporting still tells me it is a supply side issue. I had to call them to the carpet to get action.
When you start throwing real numbers and quoting supply side requirements they usually quit arguing and start acting.

 

[CRE10]

It will depend where you are on the line and the load. I would put a voltage monitor on it for a week or so and you can see the spikes. Spikes will usually be during the night when people aren't using much power and then lows will be during the day. In rural applications being towards the end of the line will sometimes create larger spikes. Your utility company should be able to do a detailed graphed report for you. 200amp service should be more than ample for your house needs. 400amp service is for very large homes and shops.

 

[Jags]

400amp service is for very large homes and shops.

I do believe that Joful's 8000 sqft home constitutes as a "very large home".

 

[CRE10]

I do believe that Joful's 8000 sqft home constitutes as a "very large home".

Oops. I read it as 800, not 8,000. For 400 amp service we would need to know what appliances he's running.

 

[Ashful]

Oops. I read it as 800, not 8,000. For 400 amp service we would need to know what appliances he's running.

Well, I'm just getting the shop set up at this house, so the only major loads to date have been a few 5 ton AC compressors. However, this is being considered more seriously now, as the shop contains several large machines, the biggest being 5hp with inrush > 100 amps. There are numerous machines at 3 hp with inrush = 60 amps, although I'll only be running those one at a time. I also run welders, a larger compressor, and lots of other mid-sized loads.

Yes, house is 6660 sq.ft., plus 1500 sq.ft. shop. On summer weekends, expect to have all air conditioning units cranked, with the 5 hp table saw and big band saws cycling on and off all day. Could get ugly.

 

[Ashful]

I would put a voltage monitor on it for a week or so and you can see the spikes.

Make and model of an affordable unit, please. Any RMS voltage meter I have is manual logging (i.e. me sitting in the basement with pencil and paper.)

 

[Jags]

Ask your power company. After they realized that I wasn't an idiot and really did have a problem, they brought one in and recorded for 24 hours.

 

[Ashful]

Ask you power company. After they realized that I wasn't an idiot and really did have a problem, they brought one in and recorded for 24 hours.

Cool. Will do, but best wait for AC season to do this. I suspect they won't see nearly as much without all the AC compressors running. I should be getting the shop wired up by then, too. It might be fun to see what some of these 80 - 100 year old ginormous 3 and 5 hp motors do to the mains voltage.

 

[CRE10]

Are you on an REC?

 

[Ashful]

Oops. I read it as 800, not 8,000. For 400 amp service we would need to know what appliances he's running.

BTW.... that does not seem to be a consideration here. One local electrical contractor told me that they make the choice solely on initial square footage.

Are you on an REC?

Nope. The legendary PECO.

 

[Redbarn]

Our house is not quite as big as yours but is 4000+ sq ft, early 1800s Federal. set back a quarter of a mile from the road.
We were hit by Hurricane Isobel in 2003 and our main feed was down.

Rather than mess around, I (personally, with a back hoe) dug a trench out to the pole on the corner of our property and got the utility to put in a 240V x 400 amp undergound supply. One of the best things I ever did.
It took a year for the garden to heal the scars but our formerly unreliable supply has been about storm proof.
We can turn anything on, including my welder in the workshop and the lights barely flicker.

Sometimes, you just bite the bullet and do whats right.