Getting propane service... questions about propane wall/space heaters

[djlew]

A little insight into my situation here... I live in an area with no natural gas service and the only thing we have is electric. Oil is an option, but a lot of people have propane as well. Currently, I have an electric heat pump which anybody who knows about these things can tell that under a certain outdoor temperature, they are borderline useless and rely on extremely expensive heat strips that, in my case, constantly run and make my electric bill almost into the 1000 dollar range (no joke). I am trying to move away from electric as the utility company is raising rates 20% and even more in some cases.

For this reason, I got my Jotul 602 to heat up the main living space and a lot of that heat goes up into the second floor rooms as well. No issues there. A bit small but it does the job. My issue is with the 450-500 sq ft primary bedroom addition that is down a hallway and doesn't get much of the heat from the wood stove. I've considered other electric heating options for that room, like baseboard and stuff, but again my primary goal is to bring down these winter electric bills.

That lead me to getting with a company that deals with oil, propane, and other HVAC stuff. They recommend a small 50 gallon tank to run a propane space heater for the room on those colder days/nights where the heat pump can't keep up. This sounded really good and exactly what I was looking for. Then I started doing some digging and basically ended up getting more confused on how safe these heaters really are.

I saw two different types - vented and ventless. I understand the concepts of course, but I really want to make sure I am getting the proper heater for what I need. Ventless (a 10,000 BTU unit was recommended for me, which seemed a bit small but I digress) seems a bit dangerous to me for obvious reasons. It would be nice to run something while I sleep, but I have to imagine anything propane that will not be an option. Vented seems like a safer choice, similar to what I think a wood stove would be like, and I have a full burn year of experience now with that bad boy. The issue is also a seemingly limited options of vented units for what I would need (something I think in the 10000-20000 BTU range). There are a ton of ventless options, some with fan add-ons that claim to increase the square footage of what the thing can heat.

My main question here is does anybody have any experience with these types of heaters in a bedroom? Vented or ventless? How do you use them, only when it's super cold as a supplement and then turn it off at night? CO detectors are a must, of course, either way. I saw a thread that mentioned an Ashley Hearth 11k BTU vented wall heater, which came up on my radar, but had mixed reviews. The good ole' Dyna Glo and Mr. Heater brands have great reviews, but concern me being ventless.

I have the company I am working with also looking into some things for me, but I always try to get real life experiences from the forum instead of from a sales department of a company. Thank you all as usual for any insight you might be able to give.

 

[stoveliker]

I would never use a ventless heater like that. They are not ventless, they exhaust into your living space and lungs.

Have you tried a fan on the floor, running as low as possible blowing colder air from the bedroom to the stove room ? That is the most efficient way to get heat from the stove to the bedroom.

Also, your heat pump is likely of the wrong (or old,) type.
Mine can heat my home when it's<10 F outside. No heating strips.

I would put a cold-weather heat pump mini split in the bedroom. That won't cost you an arm and leg in install and in electric bill

 

[djlew]

I would never use a ventless heater like that. They are not ventless, they exhaust into your living space and lungs.

Have you tried a fan on the floor, running as low as possible blowing colder air from the bedroom to the stove room ? That is the most efficient way to get heat from the stove to the bedroom.

Also, your heat pump is likely of the wrong (or old,) type.
Mine can heat my home when it's<10 F outside. No heating strips.

I would put a cold-weather heat pump mini split in the bedroom. That won't cost you an arm and leg in install and in electric bill

Thank you for the quick reply. I have tried the fan method. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference in my case. It's a pretty narrow hallway to the bedroom. I've looked into mini splits. I was under the impression that they worked similarly in terms of larger heat pumps and really have a rough time in sub 35 degree weather. I didn't realize there were specific ones to work better in colder weather. That's an option for sure. My issue is heat, the heat pump works great for AC.

My heat pump is a York, installed about 5-6 years ago, 2018 I think. Might be undersized, I'd have to double check the tons. Sub 35 degrees it freezes up, goes into a thaw cycle (air handler still runs, cold air is blowing at this point), rinse and repeat because all the heat pumped in is lost during the thaw cycle.

 

[stoveliker]

Fan: okay. Bummer.

Heat Pumps in Extreme Cold Climates | Mitsubishi Electric HVAC US

_While variable-capacity HVAC technology was introduced to the U.S. over 30 years ago and is very common abroad, many consumers in the U.S. are still getting familiar with heat pump technology. Join us as we debunk some of the most common “myths” about these systems!_ **Myth: Heat Pumps Are...

www.mitsubishicomfort.com

They claim 100% of rated capacity at 5 F, and will still heat (at lower capacity and higher electric cost per kWh of heat provided) down to -13 F.

That is likely far more than you'd even need, so you should be able to get a minisplit that's cheaper and does the job.

I had a ducted heat pump back in TN. Below 40 F it ran strips until I pulled those out and put a natural gas burner in (we had that in the road already). But still, those heat pumps konk out at 40 F.
The minisplit I have here on Long Island works great, and a much, much lower kWh usage (i.e. higher coefficient of performance, which is the "kWh heat delivered per kWh electricity used" - this CoP will vary with temperature, getting lower with lower outside temps, but current technology allows good heating at low temps.)

Minisplits are far more efficient than conventional heat pumps, also at 45 F where conventional heat pumps work well.

I'd say that a minisplit suitable for your climate will be by far the best solution for a *single room* top-up heating need. No need for additional utility (and fixed cost of that), and good efficiency and safety.

Before you make a decision, get quotes on minsplits, ask them about the lowest temps where you still have a CoP of 2 or larger (i.e. 2 kWh of heat delivered for 1 kWh electricity used), and compare with temps you see in winter.

 

[djlew]

Fan: okay. Bummer.

Heat Pumps in Extreme Cold Climates | Mitsubishi Electric HVAC US

_While variable-capacity HVAC technology was introduced to the U.S. over 30 years ago and is very common abroad, many consumers in the U.S. are still getting familiar with heat pump technology. Join us as we debunk some of the most common “myths” about these systems!_ **Myth: Heat Pumps Are...

www.mitsubishicomfort.com

They claim 100% of rated capacity at 5 F, and will still heat (at lower capacity and higher electric cost per kWh of heat provided) down to -13 F.

That is likely far more than you'd even need, so you should be able to get a minisplit that's cheaper and does the job.

I had a ducted heat pump back in TN. Below 40 F it ran strips until I pulled those out and put a natural gas burner in (we had that in the road already). But still, those heat pumps konk out at 40 F.
The minisplit I have here on Long Island works great, and a much, much lower kWh usage (i.e. higher coefficient of performance, which is the "kWh heat delivered per kWh electricity used" - this CoP will vary with temperature, getting lower with lower outside temps, but current technology allows good heating at low temps.)

Minisplits are far more efficient than conventional heat pumps, also at 45 F where conventional heat pumps work well.

I'd say that a minisplit suitable for your climate will be by far the best solution for a *single room* top-up heating need. No need for additional utility (and fixed cost of that), and good efficiency and safety.

Before you make a decision, get quotes on minsplits, ask them about the lowest temps where you still have a CoP of 2 or larger (i.e. 2 kWh of heat delivered for 1 kWh electricity used), and compare with temps you see in winter.

So the minute you mentioned this, I went to the website of the contractor I am (or was, depending) using for the propane. They do HVAC stuff too, and install Daikin mini split systems. I see their units work at ~100% efficiency at 5 degrees F and some of their units still operate down to -13F. Matches what you are saying too. I asked them for a quote and they were happy to do so. I am waiting on that. Not too concerned about the electricity usage with a mini split. I don't even mind paying a bit more, just to be comfortable. Currently, I pay a lot, and am NOT comfortable!

So I'll see what their quote comes back with. With fuel, installation, and the heater itself my price of entry for the propane was ~$500. Anticipating at least 1 extra fill up for the season, would be a year 1 cost of about $700 for the propane. No lease fee if I meet the fill up requirements. That price of entry was attractive to get the wife on board. I know the mini splits themselves can range from $1000-5000 for some multi zone systems. This would be a single zone, of course, but might be a tougher sell for the wife. Safety beats everything though, so I'm excited to see what the company says.

 

[stoveliker]

Entry cost of propane is indeed low, and will be quite lower than the minisplit.
Operating costs will be different. I'm also not sure if you'd meet the fill up requirements, if you are only heating one room.
There are threads here and elsewhere with posts that quantitatively compare fuel costs for different heating systems. That pays of more when you're talking about whole home rather than topping up a room, I'd say.

In any case, this is your (joint) choosing to do. It's not only finances that matter..
E.g. also aesthetics (some strongly dislike the minisplit head inside).
I love my minisplits, but some dislike heat pumps, minisplits in the home, etc.

If you go propane, I would strongly argue to get a vented system, not ventless.
It's good to at least make a decision being fully informed.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

10,000 btu/hr is just under half of what my house requires at -6F.


Have you looked into air sealing and insulation? It’s not as exciting as installing a new heating season, but the return is hard to beat!

 

[Highbeam]

Definitely do not install a "ventless gas heater. It's like having a chimneyless woodstove puking that pollution, stink, and water vapor into your house to cause mold, stink, and with poisonous gasses maybe worse.

 

[bogieb]

I would not put a ventless propane heater in a bedroom. Not sure I would use one at all unless it was an emergency. Propane in my area is insanely expensive, so I personally wouldn't add propane anything - I don't use my boiler for FHW heat for a reason - and one season of pellet stove usage actually paid for the stoves.

I have a Fujitsu mini split system that says it is good for 5*F . In reality it does fine until just above 10*F, unless really windy out. That is probably more a function of my house and its less than stellar insulation, lack of outside insulation/vapor barrier, 2x4 exterior walls and other factors.

If you get serious about a mini split, don't forget to look into state incentives from you power company as well as credits for your federal taxes.

 

[zrock]

Do you have any ceiling fans in your home? it makes a huge difference in my home with the ceiling fan running and with the pellet stove running it will heat the back bedroom, Im sure if i put one in the bedroom it would do a much better job of heating back their.

 

[begreen]

If going propane, then go direct-vented. The problem will be finding one small enough. A second problem will be cost. There will be the product cost, installation cost, tank cost, and then the propane consumption cost. Weigh that against the simple cost of an electric space heater.

Maybe try to reduce electrical consumption elsewhere in the house to compensate? Also, if possible, consider beefing up the insulation in the bedroom to reduce heat loss.

 

[djlew]

Thank you all for the good advice. After speaking with the contractor I am working with, they quoted me $4500 for a mini split installed. They use Daikin and LG. I don't think that's a terrible price, but definitely a bit more than we are looking to spend right now. Good call on the rebates - up to $2000 for federal and $400 for local utility rebate. That does take a bit of the bite out, and will end up most likely being the option we go with. Of course beefing up the insulation is something to look into as well. The bedroom really is the best insulated room in the house which is a good thing.

I think we are leaning away from the propane. It was a seemingly attractive solution. I am a bit bummed that the company recommended a ventless heater, considering what I read online.

If going propane, then go direct-vented. The problem will be finding one small enough. A second problem will be cost. There will be the product cost, installation cost, tank cost, and then the propane consumption cost. Weigh that against the simple cost of an electric space heater.

Maybe try to reduce electrical consumption elsewhere in the house to compensate? Also, if possible, consider beefing up the insulation in the bedroom to reduce heat loss.

Who knows, might end up helping someone else here... but this was the big thing. It is nearly impossible to find a 8000-12000 BTU vented heater for under $900. Even then, the options are few and far between from what I can tell except for the seemingly junk Ashley Hearth unit that the reviews are mixed.

I did have an idea, because in our air handler, and I'm pretty sure this is normal for most folks with a similar setup, we have the good ole' heat strip for "emergency or auxillary heat". I forgot what it was rated for as far as power use. I also have an Emporia energy meter setup to view watt usage in real time. I turned that puppy on and it was pulling about 10 kilowatts. With the heat pump itself running, it pulls about 5 kilowatts in real time. With this knowledge, I think I might be able to see upcoming cold weather, and adjust accordingly with the ecobees where it will actually be cheaper to run the emergency heat for the bedroom, and stove for the rest. It came down to would I rather have the heat pump run, freeze, thaw, repeat literally all night - or just kick on the emergency heat and actually reach temp and shut off?

It's expensive, but if I actually pay attention and run it properly and sparingly, I think that might be the realistic option before looking into a mini split setup. It was just jarring to see these increasing energy costs and not having much of a plan for a comfortable and affordable winter. Luckily, it is pretty mild where I am most of the time.

 

[begreen]

I'd get an oil filled electric radiator with a 24hr timer on it and just set it to warm up the room 5º for the time period desired.

 

[ozarkoak]

Sell the Jotul and get a bigger stove? Maybe too late for this year but like was said get a oil filled heater and get through this year. Get a bigger stove in summer when prices (hopefully) drop. Buying a stove now is like trying to buy a 4x4 in the middle of a snowstorm. I also have no idea about you or your lifestyle so I may be 100% off, sorry if I am. I know our goal with a wood stove was to heat the entire house and not have to use any supplemental heating. The previous owner of our house had an undersized clapped out stove and a propane vent-less wall heater. I ripped it all out. Now just need to figure out what to do with the propane pig. I have moved it twice in the last 6 months to get it out of the way.

 

[stoveliker]

It's a ranch with that bedroom down a hallway. A bigger stove might only cook them out of the stove room without making a significant difference in the bedroom?

 

[ozarkoak]

Reading the specs on the stove its rated for 800sqft which in my mind is really 500sqft. With a 5 hour burn time again in my mind would be a 3-4 hour burn time. Saying his bedroom is 500sqft. Not much stove left if it was just used for the bedroom.

 

[begreen]

It sounds like there is a basement in the house is this correct? If so, a simple ducted system that pulled cool air from a bedroom floor duct and blew it into the stove room would move the heat pretty well by pulling warmer air in to replace the outgoing cool air. This could be rigged up to a thermostat. Connect with a quiet fan in series using flexible insulated duct.

 

[djlew]

It's a ranch with that bedroom down a hallway. A bigger stove might only cook them out of the stove room without making a significant difference in the bedroom?

This is what the stove dealer said and why they recommended the 602. Another thing is the vaulted ceilings in the stove room. I'd consider a bigger stove, though. I even considered upgrading the stove in the living room and using the 602 in the bedroom, LOL.

It sounds like there is a basement in the house is this correct? If so, a simple ducted system that pulled cool air from a bedroom floor duct and blew it into the stove room would move the heat pretty well by pulling warmer air in to replace the outgoing cool air. This could be rigged up to a thermostat. Connect with a quiet fan in series using flexible insulated duct.

I've tried something similar with box fans. We do have a basement. What I tried was point a box fan into the stove room (well, sort of, since it basically points down the hallway) and I really didn't notice much difference. This was also in conjunction with ceiling fans, so maybe that makes a difference. I have like 3 box fans, and I haven't tried adding more to help with the convection loop, so maybe that's something to try too.

 

[kborndale]

This is what the stove dealer said and why they recommended the 602. Another thing is the vaulted ceilings in the stove room. I'd consider a bigger stove, though. I even considered upgrading the stove in the living room and using the 602 in the bedroom, LOL.


I've tried something similar with box fans. We do have a basement. What I tried was point a box fan into the stove room (well, sort of, since it basically points down the hallway) and I really didn't notice much difference. This was also in conjunction with ceiling fans, so maybe that makes a difference. I have like 3 box fans, and I haven't tried adding more to help with the convection loop, so maybe that's something to try too.

Technically, wood stoves are not allowed in bedrooms. Besides being against code, do you want all that ash and wood debris in a bedroom?

 

[djlew]

Technically, wood stoves are not allowed in bedrooms. Besides being against code, do you want all that ash and wood debris in a bedroom?

I mean, it wouldn't personally bother me, but if it bothers the inspector then that's the end all

 

[zrock]

This is what the stove dealer said and why they recommended the 602. Another thing is the vaulted ceilings in the stove room. I'd consider a bigger stove, though. I even considered upgrading the stove in the living room and using the 602 in the bedroom, LOL.


I've tried something similar with box fans. We do have a basement. What I tried was point a box fan into the stove room (well, sort of, since it basically points down the hallway) and I really didn't notice much difference. This was also in conjunction with ceiling fans, so maybe that makes a difference. I have like 3 box fans, and I haven't tried adding more to help with the convection loop, so maybe that's something to try too.

This is why i asked if their are ceiling fans installed... You need to get that heat down from those ceilings. Having box fans at floor level are just going to push more air around at that level and not get allot of air movement at the ceiling level. A ceiling fan on low moves alot of air i can feel the air movement in my place when they are on

 

[djlew]

This is why i asked if their are ceiling fans installed... You need to get that heat down from those ceilings. Having box fans at floor level are just going to push more air around at that level and not get allot of air movement at the ceiling level. A ceiling fan on low moves alot of air i can feel the air movement in my place when they are on

I do have them on, at all times actually. And I switch the mode depending on season. It helps, but no drastic differences. More than likely it is the size of the stove, but I digress. At least I won't be uncomfortable, just paying a fortune, running electric heat.

 

[kborndale]

The best way to get heat to a cold room is to put a box fan on the floor of the cold room blowing cold air towards the stove to create a convection loop.

 

[begreen]

I've tried something similar with box fans. We do have a basement. What I tried was point a box fan into the stove room (well, sort of, since it basically points down the hallway) and I really didn't notice much difference. This was also in conjunction with ceiling fans, so maybe that makes a difference. I have like 3 box fans, and I haven't tried adding more to help with the convection loop, so maybe that's something to try too.

The problem is typical of ranch layout homes. This may eliminate any need for box fans. However, for the loop to work, the bedroom door needs to be at least slightly open. Or with an 1' gap at the bottom, or a thru-grille on a wall or door. For even better circulation, duct from the two end of the hallway rooms on opposite sides. Join the two ducts from these rooms into a Y connection before the intake blower and then continue with the single duct out from the Y to the stove room.

 

[bogieb]

Depending on how/if the air moves thru the house, those suggestions (fans pointed out, air returns to the basement cut into the floor with fans in line etc), may or may not work. I tried all of those when I put in a pellet stove and none of it worked for my house (and it was very noisy - LOL). At the time, the pellet stove I had was a corner install (the only way it would fit and keep clearances), aimed into a dead corner of the living room and I just couldn't get the heat to go into the bedrooms down the hall.

I replaced the pellet stove with one I could do a straight install and now the distribution fan points down the hallway (attached layout is how it is now). Now the bedrooms get warm air and stay comfortable for the most part. So, my thought is to try putting a fan behind, and just above the wood stove, pointed toward your hallway. Although with high ceilings, that may not be as effective, but it never hurts to try since you have fans anyway.

Also, during winter, when I take a shower, I run a tower fan pointed out of the door toward the den door instead of using the bath exhaust fan. This keeps the humidity in the house (RH can get quite low). I noticed that did help heat get down the hall, even with the original set up, even though it is a cross breeze into the den.