Did I dodge a bullet? re- Chimney Fire

[Drumaz]

So I've been burning wood since about OCT in a Jotul F600. Had a prefab SS chimney professionally installed along with the stove at that time. Haven't had any major issues.... until yesterday.

Fired the stove yesterday morning.. loaded it as I always do. Had a pretty raging fire going. Stove ran up to 300 degrees.. then I heard this crackling sound... listened all around the stove and found that it was in the double wall pipe right at the point where it meets the piece that passes through the wall. That piece that passes through the wall has always been chrome.. again until yesterday!! It turned purple and all kinds of other crazy colors. It was very hot right there along with all the double wall in the house. The top of the pipe was dusty so it was burning off. I looked outside and didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Came back in and shut the stove down. I called a friend who is a fireman and obviously said I did the right thing... I kept checking the wall around that piece for a couple hours after. Everything cooled down and my house is still standing.. THANK GOD!! Chimney company is coming out Wednesday morning.... No burning until then. Put a good scare in me and the wife for sure!

I've burned about a cord and a half of wood. My fires are only around 350-400 though. I posted a couple months ago about this. I just can't get the stove over that point. I'm getting what I think is a good pull.wood is good-- Some is punked but I haven't been burning that stuff. Ocassionally ( 1 out of every 10-15 fires I'll get a piece that hisses a bit.. and only a bit) I'm mindful of what goes in it for this exact reason.. Petrified of a chimney fire

Was there a fire IN the double wall INSIDE my house?!?!? I guess I'll find out wednesday. I might pull the cap off the T tonight when I get home. See what it looks like in there now that everything is totally cold.

thoughts?

 

[begreen]

Inspecting tonight from the bottom of the tee is a good start. Look up the pipe with a flash light. If you see black shiney stuff, get it cleaned before burning again.

 

[Bubbavh]

350-400 Stove surface temp?
Seems like you are not burning hot enough. I try to get mine up to 600-650 surface temp at least once a day unless it's too warm outside to do so. The low temp is either due to poorly seasoned wood or you're choking the air off too soon to get the temps to keep it burning clean.
Bottom line... after you get it checked out and working again. Burn it hotter and try to use dry wood!

I hope all is OK with your stove!
Good luck and happy burning!

 

[Drumaz]

I'll check it when I get home. Yeah 350-400 stove top.. At least that's what my thermometer says... I did get a break-in fire to 500 but haven't hit that temp since. some of the wood is suspect but I try not to burn it. As far as air goes, the only time I close it down all the way is when we go to bed around 10:300 or 11PM. I can stir up the coals at 6:30AM and get it going again quite easily. So I run it wide open all the other times. There's seems to be no difference in the fire from wide open to "closed" .. Is this usual for Jotuls? I can move the slide from far right (open) to just about all the way farl left with noe difference. Until it stops on the left, I see the flames slow down.

Also not getting secondary burns.... I guess I should try some of that supermarket wood.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I hope there is no wood in the stove when you shut it down before going to bed. If so, that is one of your problems for sure. You will just have a smoldering fire. Better to leave some draft. Try closing the draft to where you just have a small but decent flame. Otherwise, if you are afraid of the stove to where you have to close the draft when you aren't right by the stove, it would be better to just let the fire burn out before going to bed. But doesn't this somewhat run contrary to what you wanted when you started burning wood? What do you think all these other folks do who heat totally with wood. For sure they don't close the draft before sacking out.

 

[rumme]

I hope there is no wood in the stove when you shut it down before going to bed. If so, that is one of your problems for sure. You will just have a smoldering fire. Better to leave some draft. Try closing the draft to where you just have a small but decent flame. Otherwise, if you are afraid of the stove to where you have to close the draft when you aren't right by the stove, it would be better to just let the fire burn out before going to bed. But doesn't this somewhat run contrary to what you wanted when you started burning wood? What do you think all these other folks do who heat totally with wood. For sure they don't close the draft before sacking out.

many of the EPA stoves, do not fully block intake air, even though the intake air adjustment is closed all the way...

case in point..

my napolean....even when I pushed the rod in all the way, the intake air cutout still was open 1- 2 inches...

 

[Backwoods Savage]

rumme, very well said in that they do not totally block all the air. However, that is no reason to close them completely! Even with our cat stove we never close the draft completely. Most folks are amazed to find we have ours a .25 on a scale of 1-4. There no doubt are variances in different stoves, but I still would not recommend closing one completely every night.

 

[rumme]

rumme, very well said in that they do not totally block all the air. However, that is no reason to close them completely! Even with our cat stove we never close the draft completely. Most folks are amazed to find we have ours a .25 on a scale of 1-4. There no doubt are variances in different stoves, but I still would not recommend closing one completely every night.

I think many stoves are different...my napolean actually instructs me to load it up, before bed..let it get a strong burn, then fully close the air intake adjustment..

 

[rumme]

I have read posts where some napolean owners have even went in and modded the air intake slide, so it does cover the air intake cutout fully, when the rod is pushed all the way in. They have said this was neccessary because they did not have enough control on the fire with this one adjustment. I also did this mod....and I can verify, that when I have the stovetop at 500-600 degrees...and the stove loaded with wood and a good secondary burn, I can fully close my air intake rod, which completely covers the air intake cutout, and my wood still burns . I think the key to this is :

even when the slide covers the intake cutout completely, air still can get around the sides and front/back of the slide...meaning that when closed, the air intake is still not completely airtight..ecspeically if there is a solid burn in the stove itself

 

[rumme]

to put it simply...with my stove, I notice that when I close the rod all the way, this allows the flat plate to cover up the entire area of the air intake cutout..but there might be about a 1/16 - 1/8" gap around all sides od this closure..which allows intake air to still find its way into the fire box ....

so even though the air cutout is fully covered by my steel plate, it is not entirely air tight

 

[termv]

Fully closing the damper really depends on draft of the stove/chimney and quality/dryness of wood. Some really dry poplar we use can be tossed in and closed right away and it still burns cleanly. Some of the oak can be closed completely in steps and some needs the damper left open 1/4 way. Just make sure your burning cleanly.

 

[Drumaz]

I don't think it closes completely... I could very well be doing something wrong though. I'm learning as I go here and I'm working with what I have for this year. I've only started doing that over the last month. I'll load it up and it getting burning really good... making sure it's all charred... Close it halfway for about 10 minutes... and then all the way. the flames slow down but don't go away. I tested it during the day on a weekend to see what it would do with it closed. I'm going to open up that box that houses the control and see what it looks like. Do I need to use anything when I put it back together? Will those two bolts be tough to get out? or risk being broken.. I have a tendancy to break things..

 

[rumme]

my napolean only had 2 self tapping screws holding the air adjustment rod in place...

tools needed to get them out :

screwdriver, pair of pliers ...


I then riveted a larger square piece of flat plate metal onto the air rod adjustment, so now I can completely cover the air intake cutout.....if I feel it neccessary...

 

[firefighterjake]

Drumaz:

A few thoughts:

-- You really should be getting more heat out of the stove. The stove top temp should be run between 400-600 . . . per the manual and per my experience. You will get more heat and be able to achieve secondary combustion better (more on that in a minute.)

-- Second . . . if you don't have a probe thermometer for your double wall pipe I would highly recommend you get one. If you're like me you will love the peace of mind that comes with knowing how hot your flue is and whether you're running hot enough to keep the creosote build-up at bay . . . plus it helps to really truly run your stove more efficiently when coupled with the stove top thermometer.

-- You really should be seeing a dramatic difference in the flames and you should be getting a secondary combustion when you alter the air lever. I suspect your air lever is OK (but it certainly wouldn't hurt to open the dog box and check the connections). You do mention that the fire dies down a bit when you move it all the way to the closed position . . . I suspect you're getting the fire going enough to sustain the fire, but not hot enough to really maximize the heat and achieve secondary combustion . . . probably due to the lower stove top temps . . . perhaps due to the wood supply.

Here's how I achieve secondary combustion . . . and in the process maximize stove top temps and minimize creosote build up.

1) Either start your fire using the many varied methods of starting a fire or rebuild your fire. For me I'm typically rebuilding the fire by putting cedar kindling and some very dry wood on top of hot coals. I leave the side door open 1/4 inch or so . . . staying right by the area to monitor the fire and the temps . . . the air control is open all the way to the right.

2) I let the flue thermometer climb to 400-500 degrees F and then shut the side door. Typically the flames in the stove at this point intensify. At this point I check my stove top temp . . . usually it's around 400-450 degrees by this point.

3) I slowly begin to reduce the air flow . . . watching both my thermometers and the flames in the firebox. The idea is to get the flue temps to stay between 400-800 (although I prefer 450-600) which should be hot enough to reduce creosote build up . . . and at the same time allow the stove temp to rise to 500-600. I gradually keep decreasing the air flow until I can maintain a fire with a "lazy" but "bright" flame . . . typically at this point I will begin to see some "Northern Lights" from the secondary combustion.

4) If while I'm reducing the air control the fire seems to die out I give it a bit more air . . . give it some time . . . and then attempt to reduce the air again.

Good luck.

 

[Steved53]

Drumaz:

How high is the chimney/liner?





Regards,

Steve D.

 

[Drumaz]

No sure but it has to be around 15 or 18 feet.... It runs up the outside of the house to the gutter. 45 deg bend out.. just past gutter.. 45 deg bend back.. straight up about 8 or 9 feet.

 

[karl]

That's a short chimney. What is the minimum Jotul recommends? I think the minimum on my Summit is 15 feet. When you throw in 2 45's and an exterior chimney, I can see why that thing won't heat up.

I'm still amazed that you got a chimney fire after 3 months and one cord of wood in an EPA stovve. Do you get any secondary combustion at all?

 

[WOODBUTCHER]

I'll check it when I get home. Yeah 350-400 stove top.. At least that's what my thermometer says... I did get a break-in fire to 500 but haven't hit that temp since. some of the wood is suspect but I try not to burn it. As far as air goes, the only time I close it down all the way is when we go to bed around 10:300 or 11PM. I can stir up the coals at 6:30AM and get it going again quite easily. So I run it wide open all the other times. There's seems to be no difference in the fire from wide open to "closed" .. Is this usual for Jotuls? I can move the slide from far right (open) to just about all the way farl left with noe difference. Until it stops on the left, I see the flames slow down.

Also not getting secondary burns.... I guess I should try some of that supermarket wood.

There can be a couple things here. It's either poor draft, damp wood and or stove operation. Can be all 3 maybe just one.
The bottom line is if you have dry wood and have a good draft that F600 should easily over fire in a QUICK amount of time with the front draft control wide open (all the way to the right).
My F500 and my friends F600 will over fire even with the draft control 1/2 way open (in the middle) I can get good secondary burn rates between 500-600 with the control 75% closed.
I would inspect your entire setup before burning again.

WB

 

[Drumaz]

Chimney co was out today.. there was definitley a fire. They swept the whole thing and inspected the whole set-up. They said it all looks good. I think it gets down to iffy wood and stove operation. The tech said the whole stack (inside and out) should be swept once per chord religiously and the double wall in the house should at least be "inspected" every 1/4 cord. Seems like a lot to me but I can't risk this happening again.

 

[karl]

Once per chord, and the double wall inside every 1/4 cord? That's crazy. The inside pipe should get less creosote on it than the outside pipe. Creosote normally only collects near the top of the chimney where the gases start to cool off.

Get some really dry wood, like the kiln dried stuff and try it for a fire. I'm still betting your chimney is a bit short too.

 

[BrotherBart]

Inside single wall connector pipe can get crapped up pretty fast because it is exposed to the cooling room air. Tap on it when it is clean inside and then every once in a while as you burn. You will be able to hear the tone of the tapping get duller as stuff accumulates in the pipe.

 

[ansehnlich1]

Drumaz, you ain't burning near hot enough.

I live by some simple rules with my Oslo, and I DO have an outside masonry chimney.

My chimney got swept one time last year, after a season of burning, and will get swept one time this year, same as last, as per my sweep. The reason is because I run the sucker HOT at least one time each day.

Assuming I have a bed of coals I load the stove, and leave the side door open until stove top temps reach between 200 and 300 degrees, closer to 300 is better.

I then close the door. (leaving the air control wide open) and let the stove climb to 600+

I routinely take the stovetop thermometer on the Oslo right up to 600/650 degrees, at least one time each day. I then set the air control to half way for a short time then I can shut it down to about an eighth open.

Like I said, you ain't burnin' hot enough. That F600 should be crankin' heat like nobody's business.

And as said before, you may have a draft/wood issue too, in particular, if you can't get your stove to run at the temperatures I've just mentioned.

 

[Drumaz]

Drumaz, you ain't burning near hot enough.

I live by some simple rules with my Oslo, and I DO have an outside masonry chimney.

My chimney got swept one time last year, after a season of burning, and will get swept one time this year, same as last, as per my sweep. The reason is because I run the sucker HOT at least one time each day.

Assuming I have a bed of coals I load the stove, and leave the side door open until stove top temps reach between 200 and 300 degrees, closer to 300 is better.

I then close the door. (leaving the air control wide open) and let the stove climb to 600+

I routinely take the stovetop thermometer on the Oslo right up to 600/650 degrees, at least one time each day. I then set the air control to half way for a short time then I can shut it down to about an eighth open.

Like I said, you ain't burnin' hot enough. That F600 should be crankin' heat like nobody's business.

And as said before, you may have a draft/wood issue too, in particular, if you can't get your stove to run at the temperatures I've just mentioned.

I agree - The thing should be roasting!! I start mine up the same way when there are coals. Except that when I close the door, it idles around 350.

 

[ansehnlich1]

I agree - The thing should be roasting!! I start mine up the same way when there are coals. Except that when I close the door, it idles around 350.

Well then, if your stove is idling at 350 after that, you definitely have a draft problem. That stove should be moving up to 500, 600+ degrees.

The Oslo takes I think an 11 or 12 mm socket to get into the draft control area. I've had mine off a couple times without a problem. You should be able to inspect in there pretty easily with a simple socket setup.

I think your draft or wood are a problem, maybe a combination of both.

I know my stove likes dry wood, the dryer the better.

 

[cgeiger]

Ditto on the dry wood - my Oslo will have a hard time getting past 450 unless the wood is well seasoned. You really need to load her up good as well, if you really want to run it hot or I find that the gasses escape out the top baffle too fast (even damped down) to get caught near the burn tubes and ignite. Fwiw, I KNOW my wood is not well-seasoned so I know why I'm getting what I'm getting. The few times I've been lucky enough to have a few dry splits in at a time the stove easily climbs up to 600+ even at 1/2 throttle. I recommend buying some grocery-store kiln-dried stuff and taking your 600 for a spin. I think you'll see a marked difference.