Do we need to ban incandescent bulbs?

[SpaceBus]

The free market for light bulbs has spoken.

I'm fairly certain LED bulbs are only affordable because of incentives and subsidies, not the free market. Also, as has been mentioned previously, this all started long before LED bulbs were at all affordable for working folks. Before even those tree hugging librals took office 😂😜

 

[ABMax24]

I have never seen an LED cheaper than an incandescent.

Tons of people don't know the difference, know about the energy consumption differences nor do they care.

Unfortunately it has to be mandated, because some smuck will try to bend the rules for financial gain. Lead paint has been gone in Canada for decades, yet not long ago a batch of baby toys was intercepted from China with lead paint. The law still needs to exist.

 

[gthomas785]

I would say the pollution comments are pretty much on topic since the light bulb ban was implemented to reduce light bulb CO2 emissions which is a form of pollution.

So why is the LED bulb $2.99 and not $45.99? I remember in the early days LED bulbs were very pricey. So did the price come down because of the free market or was it the "free" market responding to a government mandate after realizing they had to figure out a way to mass produce more efficient bulbs?

 

[sloeffle]

I would say the pollution comments are pretty much on topic since the light bulb ban was implemented to reduce light bulb CO2 emissions which is a form of pollution.

So why is the LED bulb $2.99 and not $45.99? I remember in the early days LED bulbs were very pricey. So did the price come down because of the free market or was it the "free" market responding to a government mandate after realizing they had to figure out a way to mass produce more efficient bulbs?

It's called technology. No different than what the price of computing, etc has done over the last X number of years.

 

[gthomas785]

It's called technology. No different than what the price of computing, solar panels, etc has done over the last X number of years.

Technology doesn't just automatically get better. Someone has to invest money into researching it and scaling up manufacturing, and they only do this if they think it will be profitable. They take all government regulations and incentives into account when projecting profits. With an impending ban on incandescents, LED makers knew they would have a huge market so they invested in it. Without the regulation there would have been more uncertainty and less investment meaning a slower adoption of the technology and more overall energy consumed by incandescent bulbs. Again the goal of the regulation was to reduce CO2 emissions by reducing energy use and it was very effective

 

[bogieb]

Technology doesn't just automatically get better. Someone has to invest money into researching it and scaling up manufacturing, and they only do this if they think it will be profitable. They take all government regulations and incentives into account when projecting profits. With an impending ban on incandescents, LED makers knew they would have a huge market so they invested in it. Without the regulation there would have been more uncertainty and less investment meaning a slower adoption of the technology and more overall energy consumed by incandescent bulbs. Again the goal of the regulation was to reduce CO2 emissions by reducing energy use and it was very effective

I used to work in a specific industry that produced substrates for LED production back in 2001 (before any ban). It was an up and coming business because LEDs made thing better, and not just in CO2 emission wise. A lot of companies in the USA (and China) were investing billions in developing cheaper, faster, better manufacturing methods for them.

They were betting big on the TV industry changing over more quickly than they did because they produced better pictures, didn't "burn in" etc. They also envisioned the lighting industry exploding, especially for non-consumer goods, although that was also on the radar and an eventual goal.

There was continuous R&D to create machines/methods for just producing the substrates involved in making LEDs (which are not even actually part of LED's, but for a step in producing LEDs). The manufacturers wanted to make them cheap enough to not only compete with, but to drive out other types of lighting. It had nothing to do with emissions, and everything to do with profits. But, they had to get them cheap enough to encourage other industries to adopt LEDs.

The only issue was that LEDs didn't take off as fast as everyone in the entire LED industry thought likely. A lot of companies, within that specific manufacturing sector (both making machines to make substrates and creating the substrates themselves) went out of business in those early days. I worked for a couple that were backed by large companies with huge pockets and/or a lot of backing. It is not cheap to create4 and sustain a new product until it catches on enough to make it profitable (assuming it does make it that far).

 

[gthomas785]

Oh yeah I'm not saying nobody was investing in LED technology, quite the contrary, but the ban on incandescent bulbs helped secure the market specifically for general purpose lighting applications so even more investment dollars got funneled in that direction.

 

[Ashful]

... all I've noticed is that now I need to buy low-lumen oven bulbs to put in my fixtures, since the high-efficiency halogens I was buying previously are suddenly unavailable. So, at least for me, the end result of this is that I'll be using substantially more energy to light my house than I was 1 year ago.

CFL's are an absolute no-go here, and I still haven't seen an LED that doesn't put me somewhere between depression and suicidal. This house will continue to be lit by incandescent, if I need to have them made bespoke.

 

[gthomas785]

CFL's are an absolute no-go here, and I still haven't seen an LED that doesn't put me somewhere between depression and suicidal. This house will continue to be lit by incandescent, if I need to have them made bespoke.

Every time I get a new LED bulb they seem to be a little better. Don't lose hope yet!

 

[Ashful]

Every time I get a new LED bulb they seem to be a little better. Don't lose hope yet!

@woodgeek keeps telling me I'm just buying the wrong LED's, and I do believe him. Someday I'll make time to dig on that further.

 

[semipro]

Tons of people don't know the difference, know about the energy consumption differences nor do they care.

Therein lies the "problem".

Because most of us won't take the time to understand these sorts of issues, we trust others to do that for us, protecting us from ourselves.
We have charged our government and the numerous standards organizations that it and manufacturers support with ensuring that products serve our best interests while mitigating unnecessary safety and other risks.

Understanding the technical complexities of something like a radar-based forward collision avoidance system on vehicles is well beyond most of us yet we all benefit from that technology every day whether we're in the equipped vehicle or the one it avoided hitting.

I can't help but wonder how many more would have died from health risks associated with cigarettes had not the government intervened with mandated warnings, financial disincentives, and minimum purchase age requirements -- preventing an even greater public cost through health care, etc.

 

[brenndatomu]

I can't help but wonder how many more would have died from health risks associated with cigarettes had not the government intervened with mandated warnings, financial disincentives, and minimum purchase age requirements -- preventing an even greater public cost through health care, etc.

Very true...but big difference between light bulbs and cigs...

 

[sloeffle]

@bogieb - did the company(ies) that you worked for have any government funding that you know of, or were they just trying to advance the technology on their own ?

 

[SpaceBus]

Very true...but big difference between light bulbs and cigs...

Maybe, maybe not. The light bulbs are a part of a greater public health risk from climate change and pollution

 

[begreen]

I was reluctant for several years, but now I am sold on LEDs. I have tracked bulb aging for decades. Every new bulb gets dated with a sharpie. During the past 3 decades we've gone from incandescent to energy-saving incandescent, then halogen, then CFL, and now LED. At each new phase, color temperature, color rendering index, and dimming were important. Often, at the start of a new tech, the last two requirements suffered. Fortunately, the industry listened and the issues were usually resolved, some better than others. CFLs were the poorest in spite of the energy savings.

Of all the new tech, LED is unquestionably the best. The early ones sucked for natural lighting but they have the color rendering issues down now. The longevity is definitely a winner. This is really helpful for very hard-to-access bulbs. I hope I never have to change the bulbs in our tall stairwell again. The energy savings are great. My wife needs strong lighting due to failing eyesight. So having good bright lighting in the kitchen helps a lot but it must not make food look unnatural. We now have FEIT LED replacements in the kitchen and they have done an excellent job of natural lighting. We have gone from 720 watts of lighting in the kitchen to 104 watts. Considering that the kitchen lights can be on for 6+ hrs a day in the winter, this is a notable improvement. And delightfully, the replacements have come down a lot in price so now all of our can lights are converted.

 

[begreen]

Maybe, maybe not. The light bulbs are a part of a greater public health risk from climate change and pollution

Cigarettes have a huge pollution component in their filters which are mostly plastic. They are the most commonly polluting plastic and are considered the most abundant form of plastic waste on the planet, with about 4.5 trillion individual butts polluting the environment.

Tiny But Deadly: Your Butt on Plastic - Earth Day

Cigarette butts are the most abundant form of plastic waste in the world, with about 4.5 trillion individual butts polluting our environment.

www.earthday.org

Tobacco and cigarette butt consumption in humans and animals

Discarded cigarette butts may present health risks to human infants and animals because of indiscriminate eating behaviours. Nicotine found in cigarette butts may cause vomiting and neurological toxicity; leachates of cigarette butts in aquatic environments may cause exposure to additional toxic...

tobaccocontrol.bmj.com

 

[Ashful]

Okay begreen, you've gotten me curious again. We have twenty 45W (370 lum) recessed BR30 2600K incandescent floods lighting our great room and kitchen, which my wife and kids are forever leaving on. I must turn them off five times per evening, only to come back thru and find all 20 of them on again, with no one anywhere near. If you're saying I can get good CRI out of a 2700K R30 flood, and also not have to drag the 10' stepladder into the house to change them anymore, I'm game.

Do note that I've tried several LED R/BR/PAR30's and 38's in the past, and they all looked pretty horrendous, but it has been 5 years (April 2018) since I did any experimentation with this. Maybe they've gotten better, in the time since then. The bulbs I was using at the time were all 2700k to 3000k and CRI 90+, which is apparently not high enough.

One issue I'll run into is that damn near every bulb in this house is on a dimmer, most 3-way or 4-way, so I'm going to be upgrading dimmers. But I'd be willing to try at least one of these four circuits comprising 20 bulbs, as a starting point. Might be interesting to tackle one room, leave half the lights as incandescent and make the other half LED, to see how they compare. I'm sitting on an inventory of 25 of those bulbs in incandescent right now, as 20 installed + 5 on the shelf.

 

[gthomas785]

I have been happy with the Philips Warm Glow series.

 

[bogieb]

@bogieb - did the company(ies) that you worked for have any government funding that you know of, or were they just trying to advance the technology on their own ?

Well, I really wasn't in a position to be in the know, but my guess is since they both shut down after a couple of years, they didn't. They shut down because the buyers of the technology slowed down orders severely when the LED market didn't come to the expected fruition.

I'm pretty sure that a French company (the huge company with deep pockets) didn't. The smaller company I worked for, was investor backed (the owners had started and sold several hugely successfull companies so had great connections), but they could have had government grants just as a "small" company.

 

[bogieb]

Okay begreen, you've gotten me curious again. We have twenty 45W (370 lum) recessed BR30 2600K incandescent floods lighting our great room and kitchen, which my wife and kids are forever leaving on. I must turn them off five times per evening, only to come back thru and find all 20 of them on again, with no one anywhere near. If you're saying I can get good CRI out of a 2700K R30 flood, and also not have to drag the 10' stepladder into the house to change them anymore, I'm game.

Do note that I've tried several LED R/BR/PAR30's and 38's in the past, and they all looked pretty horrendous, but it has been 5 years (April 2018) since I did any experimentation with this. Maybe they've gotten better, in the time since then. The bulbs I was using at the time were all 2700k to 3000k and CRI 90+, which is apparently not high enough.

One issue I'll run into is that damn near every bulb in this house is on a dimmer, most 3-way or 4-way, so I'm going to be upgrading dimmers. But I'd be willing to try at least one of these four circuits comprising 20 bulbs, as a starting point. Might be interesting to tackle one room, leave half the lights as incandescent and make the other half LED, to see how they compare. I'm sitting on an inventory of 25 of those bulbs in incandescent right now, as 20 installed + 5 on the shelf.

Make sure you get bulbs that are compatible with dimming. Last I knew they were a bit more expensive than regular LEDs, but that may have changed.

I myself prefer the bright white LEDs, "soft" or "daylight" do not do me any favors.

One side effect of changing to LED's, is they put out less heat. So that is great during summer since your cooling appliances don't have to work harder to compensate for that heat. During winter? IDK, heating appliances are probably more efficient at creating heat anyway, so at the least it is a wash.

Also, make sure to check your state or electric provider websites. Some times they will have incentives, rebates, or sell you a pack (or multiple packs) for cheaper than what can be had at the store. Although that may not be a thing anymore .

One downside to LED light bulbs is they don't like enclosed fixtures. The 2-bulb fixture in my home office is enclosed, and I have had to change out LED bulbs in it a couple of times since 2015. With a low ceiling and being a small room anyway, I can't change over to an open fixture for fear of breaking a bulb just becuase I'm a klutz. That may sound strange but the attic acess is in that room, so I have to bring in a 6' ladder at times. But, I have open fixtures in every other room and I don't think I've changed out any of those bulbs in that time.

 

[gthomas785]

I have been happy with the Philips Warm Glow series.

I should add that these LED bulbs are designed to be not only compatible with dimming, but to shift to a warmer color temperature when dimmed the same way that incandescent bulbs do.

 

[StoveInNH]

Huh, I could have sworn this thread was in the Green Room section, but it ain't, so I stand corrected (I can't believe that no one called me out on that )

Fyi: It started in the Green Room. It was moved by the mods.

 

[SpaceBus]

Make sure you get bulbs that are compatible with dimming. Last I knew they were a bit more expensive than regular LEDs, but that may have changed.

I myself prefer the bright white LEDs, "soft" or "daylight" do not do me any favors.

One side effect of changing to LED's, is they put out less heat. So that is great during summer since your cooling appliances don't have to work harder to compensate for that heat. During winter? IDK, heating appliances are probably more efficient at creating heat anyway, so at the least it is a wash.

Also, make sure to check your state or electric provider websites. Some times they will have incentives, rebates, or sell you a pack (or multiple packs) for cheaper than what can be had at the store. Although that may not be a thing anymore .

One downside to LED light bulbs is they don't like enclosed fixtures. The 2-bulb fixture in my home office is enclosed, and I have had to change out LED bulbs in it a couple of times since 2015. With a low ceiling and being a small room anyway, I can't change over to an open fixture for fear of breaking a bulb just becuase I'm a klutz. That may sound strange but the attic acess is in that room, so I have to bring in a 6' ladder at times. But, I have open fixtures in every other room and I don't think I've changed out any of those bulbs in that time.

In regards to heating efficiency, incandescent bulbs are actually 100% efficient, like electric resistance heaters. A bulb is essential a resistance heater that gets hot enough to glow. Definitely not the ideal way to heat anything, but an interesting footnote

 

[Ashful]

One downside to LED light bulbs is they don't like enclosed fixtures.

This was my experience with trying to use LED's in my lamp posts, nearly all of them died within just one year of installation, easily 3x worse than regular old incandescent bulbs. Thought it was a fluke, bad application (candle base 25W bulbs in outdoor fixtures), but maybe not.

We have a lot of antique enclosed light fixtures in this house, 1890's - 1920's. They may not play well with LED's, if for no other reason than the cut glass type on the fixtures only works well with clear bulbs (no soft white bulbs, no ugly white LED bulb bases). But I'm not changing out these beautiful old fixtures, so these may remain with halogen, or even switch over to clear appliance bulbs if halogens and incandescents become totally unavailable.

Unfortunately, appliance bulbs draw at least 10%-15% more than regular incandescents for same output, and nearly double what my present halogens draw. So I'd expect energy usage to roughly double for all of those fixtures, if halogens really do become unobtainable.

 

[gthomas785]

We have a lot of antique enclosed light fixtures in this house, 1890's - 1920's. They may not play well with LED's, if for no other reason than the cut class type on the fixtures only works well with clear bulbs (no soft white bulbs, no ugly white LED bulb bases).

Have you checked out the "filament style" LED bulbs? From ~6ft away they look no different than a clear incandescent bulb. No ugly base and no weird beam spread pattern either. They make them in all shapes including the pointy candelabra style.