Does an insert need a flue liner?

[HeatsTwice]

Sorry if this has already been asked before, but I was dropping some wood off at a friends yesterday and noticed that her insert had no flue liner running up her terracotta interior/brick exterior chimney.

She said that when she bought the house, the stove had already been installed and she had been burning it constantly, every winter for 25 years without problem.

The only reason I bring it up now is that, after a chimney sweep cleaned her chimney, he mentioned that she needed a new liner (as if there was one there in the first place).

I am not licensed to advise anyone on wood burning although I've installed my own free standing stove/chimney system.

Is it safe or normal for people to run an insert up through the chimney of an existing fire place (without a liner)?

It seems so to me but I would trust the collective opinion of this group.

 

[bholler]

It used to be pretty common it is getting to be less and less common now. It is not a very good setup for either performance or safety. That being said there are lots of people that burn like this for many years with no problems but I think it is a good idea for them to install a liner

 

[Dix]

Yes, you need a liner.

If her stove is 25 years old, she needs to upgrade.

 

[webby3650]

These old units are often used without a liner. It is required to have liner installed up the first flue tile, this is called direct connect set-up. Definitely not ideal, but approved for the old units. This could be what the sweep was referring to.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Her chimney has a liner. It's made out of clay tiles. Assuming it's in good repair it's perfectly safe, just like a SS liner.

 

[bholler]

I would not necessarily say she needs to upgrade the stove. But it is definatly time to consider it. Mine is 30+ years old and I have no intention of replacing it but it is a cawley lemay not a big old smoke dragon slammer insert. That being said we have lots of customers who are still very happy with their older inserts and we have put quite a few liners on them and they can still work well

 

[tfdchief]

I burned my old Buck 26000 for many years just stuck in the fire place.....i. e. slammer install. But then in 1982 that is what the instructions said to do. Many years later, I learned a lot and direct connected to my insert with a SS liner. The difference is remarkable!. The upper part of the fireplace fire box was so glazed with creosote after each season that it was impossible to get clean. The smoke left the insert and slowed down in the huge fire place fire box that it was impossible to burn without a creosote mess. I typically cleaned at least 2 times a burning season. NOW, direct connected to a SS liner, it stays clean all season. I only clean it once and get NO glazed creosote. except a little at the very top. The stove burns so much more efficiently now. So, can you burn an insert without a liner, yes. But with knowledge we have today, I would not recommend it.....get it lined. you won't be sorry, and you will have a much safer and efficient set up.

 

[bholler]

not if it is a slammer install bigg red they have draft problems and if there is a chimney fire there is a big potential for it to get out of that fire box. Direct connects are much better but still not great

 

[BrotherBart]

Having burned in one of those "slammer" insert installs I say line it. They were really popular in the seventies and eighties before liners were available. Smoke chambers and flues full of creosote are a fact of life with them and stove makers and insert owners learned that pretty soon.

Needs a liner.

 

[Dix]

Her chimney has a liner. It's made out of clay tiles. Assuming it's in good repair it's perfectly safe, just like a SS liner.

Wrong, very wrong. bad advice being given here.

Flame suit on. Fire away.

Clay tiles do not equal a liner. Sorry.

 

[bholler]

well that is not quite right either Dixie clay tiles are liners and they work fine if they are in good shape. the problem here is that there is no good connection to those liners and they are over sized for the stove

 

[Dix]

well that is not quite right either Dixie clay tiles are liners and they work fine if they are in good shape. the problem here is that there is no good connection to those liners and they are over sized for the stove

No. They do not.

 

[HeatsTwice]

Thanks all. It looks like the liner would have to be about 15 feet long of 6". She is on a budget. Any idea what the install would cost (ball park only). I will put her in contact with some pros for a free estimate if she goes that direction.

 

[bholler]

what do you mean they do not clay tile are liners according to every building code I have ever seen. They work fine. Are they as good as ss? No but they work. In this case those liners are not doing any good because they are not sized right and the stove is not connected to them but to say clay tiles are not liners is just wrong I am sorry.

 

[bholler]

heats twice the prices will vary allot depending on the type of liner if it is insulated and other variables it is hard to give any idea with out seeing it.

 

[Dix]

well that is not quite right either Dixie clay tiles are liners and they work fine if they are in good shape. the problem here is that there is no good connection to those liners and they are over sized for the stove

what do you mean they do not clay tile are liners according to every building code I have ever seen. They work fine. Are they as good as ss? No but they work. In this case those liners are not doing any good because they are not sized right and the stove is not connected to them but to say clay tiles are not liners is just wrong I am sorry.

I have clay tiles in my inserts chimney (running 2 stoves here, one an insert, and the other a free standing). Clay is not a liner for new EPA stoves.

If you want to have a chimney fire, fine with me. But I'm not going to recommend it, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna let it slide.

 

[bholler]

I agree with you that a stainless liner is a better liner than clay and given the choice I would always say go with stainless. But to make a blanket statement that clay tiles are not a liner is simply incorrect. A clay lined chimney that is in good shape sized correctly and connected to the stove correctly can work very well and be safe as well.

 

[bholler]

Also not that it matter to much in this forum but if I were building a chimney for a coal stove or furnace I would with out a doubt line it with clay it is absolutely the most durable liner in that application.

 

[HeatsTwice]

Ok one thing I forgot to mention is this. We (she and I) live in earthquake country (had one yesterday off the coast of Eureka, CA). With all the "samalonga/ding dong/ooh mao mao" this area gets from quakes, one gets a lot of cracks in any masonry. A chimney does not have to fall over to be quake damaged. Cracks can let chimney fire plasma through to to the rafters that a liner would prevent.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[bholler]

In that case clay is not an option at all for anything then. But like I said before they way hers is hooked up is not safe or efficient.

 

[begreen]

I pulled our fireplace after an earthquake rotated the top 45 deg. If the sweep says she needs a liner, pay attention. He most likely has spotted a degradation that needs to be remedied.

 

[HeatsTwice]

Agreed. But since she's been burning it for 25 years and the previous owner had been for some time as well, she may hesitate to install the liner. The best idea would be if she got the opinions of a few other chimney people.

 

[bholler]

that is probably a good approach.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Her chimney has a liner. It's made out of clay tiles. Assuming it's in good repair it's perfectly safe, just like a SS liner.

Yes it's like going through a red light after midnight cause no one is around....

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Yes it's like going through a red light after midnight cause no one is around....

Clay has been used as a liner inside chimneys since. . . well, since chimneys were invented. Clay liners hardly need me to defend them.