Does anybody still want Cat Stoves?

[byshaw]

A year ago, I completely stripped and rebuilt a Vermont Castings Defiant Encore (0028) stove and put it back into use. After 40 years of burning wood, I assumed I'd be able to easily get the hang of the stove and have a happy life. Overall, I have not.

The stove is not broken; it's merely a pain to have to monitor to get the good coal bed, switch to cat combustion, monitor until stable, tinker with air flow, etc. Compared to my newer stoves, it's not particularly user friendly.

So the two questions are this. First, does anybody out there have some deep emotional attachment to these types of stoves and really love them (for all their quirks); second, where does one go to sell a stove like this and not completely lose the investment? It's the most beautiful stove I've owned, but it's also not user friendly. This thing sits in a guest house and I will be switching a stove that an inexperienced (idiot) guest can figure out and operate. An Encore isn't it, unfortunately.

Details of the stove

Rebuilt; all gaskets replaced
New handles (all around)
New cat
Rebuilt combustion box (i.e. fixed a couple dings/dents)
New air probe
New undermount heat shield
Stripped and re-blackened

Thanks in advance for the guidance.

 

[ToastyRanch]

A year ago, I completely stripped and rebuilt a Vermont Castings Defiant Encore (0028) stove and put it back into use. After 40 years of burning wood, I assumed I'd be able to easily get the hang of the stove and have a happy life. Overall, I have not.

The stove is not broken; it's merely a pain to have to monitor to get the good coal bed, switch to cat combustion, monitor until stable, tinker with air flow, etc. Compared to my newer stoves, it's not particularly user friendly.

So the two questions are this. First, does anybody out there have some deep emotional attachment to these types of stoves and really love them (for all their quirks); second, where does one go to sell a stove like this and not completely lose the investment? It's the most beautiful stove I've owned, but it's also not user friendly. This thing sits in a guest house and I will be switching a stove that an inexperienced (idiot) guest can figure out and operate. An Encore isn't it, unfortunately.

Details of the stove

Rebuilt; all gaskets replaced
New handles (all around)
New cat
Rebuilt combustion box (i.e. fixed a couple dings/dents)
New air probe
New undermount heat shield
Stripped and re-blackened

Thanks in advance for the guidance.

Not a direct answer to either of your questions, but I have two comments.
I have a very short chimney, which is at the correct height for my single house story (plus basement) with a low pitched roof. It would look terrible and be precarious to have a taller one. I’m trying to retrofit something into an existing fireplace opening: insert or stove. Everything that I’ve looked that is a non-cat and fits my dimensions requires a minimum of a 15 foot chimney, which is taller than I’ve got. So some of us have to deal with catalytic converters whether we like it or not for any affordable upgrade to an open fireplace besides a pellet stove.

Second, there’s a lot of discussion about the fussiness to operate of VC stoves in particular; it’s frequently discussed on this forum. It’s persuaded me against a VC in spite of being enamored of some of the bells whistles in terms of features. I’m not sure anyone other than an existing VC user looking to upgrade is going to want a refurbished one, but I’m not an expert on the resale market.

 

[stoveliker]

A year ago, I completely stripped and rebuilt a Vermont Castings Defiant Encore (0028) stove and put it back into use. After 40 years of burning wood, I assumed I'd be able to easily get the hang of the stove and have a happy life. Overall, I have not.

The stove is not broken; it's merely a pain to have to monitor to get the good coal bed, switch to cat combustion, monitor until stable, tinker with air flow, etc. Compared to my newer stoves, it's not particularly user friendly.

So the two questions are this. First, does anybody out there have some deep emotional attachment to these types of stoves and really love them (for all their quirks); second, where does one go to sell a stove like this and not completely lose the investment? It's the most beautiful stove I've owned, but it's also not user friendly. This thing sits in a guest house and I will be switching a stove that an inexperienced (idiot) guest can figure out and operate. An Encore isn't it, unfortunately.

Details of the stove

Rebuilt; all gaskets replaced
New handles (all around)
New cat
Rebuilt combustion box (i.e. fixed a couple dings/dents)
New air probe
New undermount heat shield
Stripped and re-blackened

Thanks in advance for the guidance.

I think your question is too general; look at the BK thread. Many folks giddy with their (cat) stove. I could not be happier with mine. Load, set, re-set after 20-ish minutes, and walk away for 12, 16, 24 hrs depending on the heat I need. Literally nothing to do. The opposite of fussy.

The problem you have is that it's a fussy stove (in your set up), it's not the nature of the cat.
imho.

 

[stoveliker]

Not a direct answer to either of your questions, but I have two comments.
I have a very short chimney, which is at the correct height for my single house story (plus basement) with a low pitched roof. It would look terrible and be precarious to have a taller one. I’m trying to retrofit something into an existing fireplace opening: insert or stove. Everything that I’ve looked that is a non-cat and fits my dimensions requires a minimum of a 15 foot chimney, which is taller than I’ve got. So some of us have to deal with catalytic converters whether we like it or not for any affordable upgrade to an open fireplace besides a pellet stove.

Second, there’s a lot of discussion about the fussiness to operate of VC stoves in particular; it’s frequently discussed on this forum. It’s persuaded me against a VC in spite of being enamored of some of the bells whistles in terms of features. I’m not sure anyone other than an existing VC user looking to upgrade is going to want a refurbished one, but I’m not an expert on the resale market.

I don't get it; you say non-cats need taller stacks? Generally a cat adds impedance, and thus needs a taller stack to be able to suck enough air through the stove.

I know @begreen knows a few stoves that can run on a 12 ft stack.

 

[begreen]

I don't get it; you say non-cats need taller stacks? Generally a cat adds impedance, and thus needs a taller stack to be able to suck enough air through the stove.

I know @begreen knows a few stoves that can run on a 12 ft stack.

Yes, that is too general a statement. The flue height is stove design specific. Highbeam has his Princess on a short 12?' flue and it's working well. The Fireview has been reported to work well on a shorter chimney too. Conversely, I am pretty certain that a GM60 on the same flue would not be as cooperative.

 

[ToastyRanch]

Yes, that is too general a statement. The flue height is stove design specific. Highbeam has his Princess on a short 12?' flue and it's working well. The Fireview has been reported to work well on a shorter chimney too. Conversely, I am pretty certain that a GM60 on the same flue would not be as cooperative.

Oh boy now I’m a bit worried. I was just about decided to get a Shelburne which has an identical EPA report as the GM60, so I’m assuming it’s substantially identical. And we were thinking to to get that with a rear vent for the retrofit, to boot.

Dealer and also an entirely independent installer seem to think it will work fine. We’re just about at sea level and only one nearby “close” house 30 feet away so I’m hoping that can somewhat make up for it. Hopefully, I’m guessing the right brand names in response here: The BK princess and Woodstock Fireview are both larger fire boxes than I had been planning on getting. Any other suggestions recommend for short flues under 2.5 firebox, rear vent, and it cannot have a side door?

Any chance that in this particular set of constraints we’re actually better off with a VC Encore vs the Shelburne?

 

[begreen]

BK has smaller fireboxes if desired, but it is less of an issue because unlike the hybrids from Hearthstone, they are pure cat and thermostatically regulated. This means that a bigger firebox doesn't necessarily equal more heat, it means a bigger fuel tank for longer burns when running low and slow. What they don't have is a rear-vent stove. Rear-vent + short chimney narrows down the options greatly.

 

[ToastyRanch]

BK has smaller fireboxes, but it is less of an issue because unlike the hybrids from Hearthstone, they are pure cat and thermostatically regulated. This means that a bigger firebox doesn't mean more heat, it means a bigger fuel tank for longer burns when running low and slow. What they don't have is a rear-vent stove. rear-vent + short chimney narrows down the options greatly

Appreciate your response. Trying to decide what to try. I noticed another thread from someone asking about advice with a short chimney and @bholler said something which seemed to me to imply that a smaller stove is a safer bet for good draft with a shorter chimney. Would we have better success with a Hearthstone Craftsbury ? We don’t have much footprint room for a stove and we don’t usually need more than 10k BTU per 24 hours of oil powered hydronic baseboards to heat our house, unless there’s really bitter cold or high winds, which happens maybe 1/3 of the winter. Those 50 days or so we’re at maybe 40K BTUs per 24 hours. I was previously making my selection based on the general advice that fireboxes under 2 cubic feet are a pain to manage. But maybe in our case it would be less of a pain than constantly coaxing firing up a poor draft. What do you —and anyone else who wants to chime in— think about this idea? We have a local Hearthstone dealer who comes recommended and seems genuinely interested to help us, but two story dwellings are much more common than ranches here so his experience with short chimneys is limited, and same thing with the installer. Thanks for any advice.

 

[stoveliker]

Is 10k BTU per 24 hrs correct? That's 417 BTU per hour...

There are no stoves really good in that range imo. Yes you can build small fires, yes you can have intermittent fires. But the result will still be very large temperature swings because most stoves put out thousands of BTUs per hour.

 

[begreen]

Draft (chimney height requirement) and stove size are not interdependent.

Look into a Woodstock Fireview or Keystone for this application. They can provide low steady heat + rear venting and they have lower hearth depth requirement because they are side loaders.

 

[bholler]

Appreciate your response. Trying to decide what to try. I noticed another thread from someone asking about advice with a short chimney and @bholler said something which seemed to me to imply that a smaller stove is a safer bet for good draft with a shorter chimney. Would we have better success with a Hearthstone Craftsbury ? We don’t have much footprint room for a stove and we don’t usually need more than 10k BTU per 24 hours of oil powered hydronic baseboards to heat our house, unless there’s really bitter cold or high winds, which happens maybe 1/3 of the winter. Those 50 days or so we’re at maybe 40K BTUs per 24 hours. I was previously making my selection based on the general advice that fireboxes under 2 cubic feet are a pain to manage. But maybe in our case it would be less of a pain than constantly coaxing firing up a poor draft. What do you —and anyone else who wants to chime in— think about this idea? We have a local Hearthstone dealer who comes recommended and seems genuinely interested to help us, but two story dwellings are much more common than ranches here so his experience with short chimneys is limited, and same thing with the installer. Thanks for any advice.

I did not say that

 

[ToastyRanch]

Is 10k BTU per 24 hrs correct? That's 417 BTU per hour...

There are no stoves really good in that range imo. Yes you can build small fires, yes you can have intermittent fires. But the result will still be very large temperature swings because most stoves put out thousands of BTUs per hour.

Thanks for questioning me. I reviewed my assumptions. What I was meaning to say is that the living room —where the current open fireplace that I’m looking to upgrade to hook up a stove— usually consumes roughly 545 BTU per hour, if averaging the majority of the heating days and excluding roughly the coldest 50. On the 30 colder days it’s double, and the 20 or so arctic blast days it’s triple. But that’s only 1635 per hour. It’s turned pretty far down two or three days a week when no one is there and for overnight, which plays into it….. I’m not saying it’s super comfortable heated like that, more like it doesn’t feel better to heat it more, it just feels stuffier…. When I warm up by the fireplace it actually feels good: but that’s partially on account of all the fresh air infiltration feeding the fire. I’m hoping I can get somewhat the same effect from a stove, while being less wasteful.

 

[ToastyRanch]

I did not say that

Thanks. Exactly shows why I wanted your input…. while I have your attention @bholler I would really appreciate clarification on the preconditions for necessary for getting a Regency insert instead of a freestanding stove. My current fireplace is pictured in the photo.

I’ve been told that to do an insert I would need a hearth extension as illustrated by the blue tape. And the code says nothing combustible underneath the extension, so I cannot simply put tiles or bricks attached to the finish flooring or subfloor. There’s a basement underneath this area. I’m thinking it would need to be solid concrete blocks underneath the extension all the way down to the floor and maybe even dig a footing. I haven’t been able to glean the standard procedure for such a project.

I’m thinking that an insert would have the best draft, a bricked over opening with a top flue stove and a thimble high up on the masonry would be second best venting, and a rear venting stove on a 12 foot chimney is somewhat challenging.

@begreen suggested one of the rear venting Woodstock stoves with a side loading capacity for good venting on a roughly 12 foot chimney. To make it work, I need some more advice. I’m unclear if there are any IRC provisions regarding clearance from walkways. We have been informally blocking the walkway from the living room closer to the center exit door as it’s redundant, and we would need to permanently block this path with an expanded ember protection pad if we got a side loader. I included a diagram to try to clarify.
Much obliged to everyone assisting me.

 

[bholler]

Thanks. Exactly shows why I wanted your input…. while I have your attention @bholler I would really appreciate clarification on the preconditions for necessary for getting a Regency insert instead of a freestanding stove. My current fireplace is pictured in the photo.

I’ve been told that to do an insert I would need a hearth extension as illustrated by the blue tape. And the code says nothing combustible underneath the extension, so I cannot simply put tiles or bricks attached to the finish flooring or subfloor. There’s a basement underneath this area. I’m thinking it would need to be solid concrete blocks underneath the extension all the way down to the floor and maybe even dig a footing. I haven’t been able to glean the standard procedure for such a project.

I’m thinking that an insert would have the best draft, a bricked over opening with a top flue stove and a thimble high up on the masonry would be second best venting, and a rear venting stove on a 12 foot chimney is somewhat challenging.

@begreen suggested one of the rear venting Woodstock stoves with a side loading capacity for good venting on a roughly 12 foot chimney. To make it work, I need some more advice. I’m unclear if there are any IRC provisions regarding clearance from walkways. We have been informally blocking the walkway from the living room closer to the center exit door as it’s redundant, and we would need to permanently block this path with an expanded ember protection pad if we got a side loader. I included a diagram to try to clarify.
Much obliged to everyone assisting me.

View attachment 287015

Check the hearth requirements for the inserts you are interested in. Some wouldn't need a hearth extension compliant for an open fireplace.

If they do you pour a slab you don't need to go to the floor with a foundation.

 

[texcoldhater]

I don't get it; you say non-cats need taller stacks? Generally a cat adds impedance, and thus needs a taller stack to be able to suck enough air through the stove.

I know @begreen knows a few stoves that can run on a 12 ft stack.

Please explain why a taller chimney makes for more draft? What's the physics going on?

 

[begreen]

Please explain why a taller chimney makes for more draft? What's the physics going on?

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - All About Chimneys

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

woodheat.org