Dollar Test (VC Defiant Encore)

[Sophie]

We did the dollar bill test on our stove and the seal was very good between the two front doors - however, there was not as much resistance on the right door on the top and virtually no resistance on the bottom of the left door.

Is there any way to fix this or am I being too paranoid?

 

[CTBurner]

Not to paranoid, You can try adusting the door latch to make it close tighter, this is usually neccisary after a couple months of new stove or replaced gaskets, if that does not help you may need to replace gaskets. you could try to get a vc rep/dealer to look at it.
If gaskets are leaking it can make it differcult to control stove. the manual gives help on adjusting door latches, it is pretty easy.

 

[Sophie]

We found old instructions from a VC gasket kit that explains that there should be resistance on every part of the door - we have tried adjusting the doors but that doesn't help - we're now replacing the gaskets for the 3rd time this season - we had someone from the local VC dealer replace the gasket in August but it wasn't right - I think the gasket was the wrong size - it was so tight I couldn't open the door and it was chipping the enamel - so he came back and it was fine for awhile but then I knew something was wrong and I tried the dollar bill test today and it failed.

There seems to be a lot of cement built up - and I don't recall the VC tech scraping old cement off. I've read a lot of complaints on this site about VC service - maybe to get it right you have to do it yourself.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Sophie]

We put new gaskets on the front doors - it is a little better but the doors still aren't tight all the way around - the only place that is truly tight is the middle front where both doors close- has anyone put different sized gaskets on different sections of a door?

 

[homebrewz]

Which model Defiant Encore do you have?

I have an 0028 which is 5/16" gasket all the way around the doors. A good way to replace the door gaskets is to take the doors off (they slide up and out, at least
on the 0028) and remove the old gasket, chip and sand out all old gasket cement, and install the new gasket with cement. Perhaps there is a lump of cement
or old cement stuck somewhere beneath the new gasket?

btw, about the service issue, was it a VC tech or a tech from your local dealer or stove shop that just happens to work on VC? Quality of service will vary from shop to shop
mostly independent of what brands they carry and work on.

 

[Sophie]

Our stove is also the 0028 and our doors do pull off.

The tech works for the VC dealer - he said he's been working for them for 20 - 30 years. When we put the new gaskets on the doors this last time, we did a pretty good job of scraping out the old cement.

Until this year we didn't burn wood seriously - we used it sporadically - we stopped using it at least 10 years ago and I don't recall every doing the dollar test.

Are your stove's doors uniformly tight on the top and bottom?

Thanks again for the info/advice.

 

[homebrewz]

My doors seem to be fairly tight. I have been burning 24/7 pretty much since the start of the season, so I can't really do the dollar bill test at the moment.
(I think my dollars are still worth something, despite the present state of things.. so I don't want to risk prematurely destroying any.)

I replaced my gaskets at the beginning of the season as I noticed some difficulty in controlling the stove at the end of last season.

Are you having trouble controlling it? Does it seem to be taking in air from the doors? You can test this with an incense stick and see where the smoke gets
drawn in. If so, perhaps there is a slight warp in one of the doors?

 

[Sophie]

Actually, we previously had a problem controlling the fire - I posted on this site that I could hear a noise from the catalytic converter and noticed that it was glowing orange - I got nervous and stupidly opened up the damper and it got really hot - even though the thermostat was not opened all the way it maxed out our thermometer at 900 degrees. Talk abut fun! We turned it down as far as it would go and it did slow back down to normal. I believe that the reason for that overfiring was because I had too much wood in it - it was loaded almost to the top of the stove - but it didn't seem that extreme considering the loading instruction pictures in our manual.

I think it was you that told me at that time to check the air intakes and to do the incense test. We vacuumed the air intakes for the first time since 1988 (not being aware of the need) :red: and did the incense test. When we did the incense test it appeared that there was a considerable draft near the ash pan, but then realized that the incense was being drawn by the air intakes - it was going under the ash pan and above the heat shield to the back of the stove! (At least that's what it appeared to me.) The incense didn't appear to be entering the stove through the doors.

It has been running a lot better since we vacuumed it out - I don't think it was severely clogged, but I'm sure that it improved the stove's operation a great deal.

However, I recently heard the noise from the catalytic converter again and noticed that it was glowing again. It was only operating in the 500 - 600 degree range - it was not overheating but it was glowing orange. This time I left the damper closed and slowed it down with the thermostat and it did stop glowing. I took a quick picture (it is not very good, but it was difficult to get the picture without melting my camera) and I have attached it - it is dark but you can see the glowing. The glow is from the back of the stove - the angle makes it look like it might be wood, but it is in the back where the catalytic converter is.) This was the only time it happened. Also, some of the wood we are using might be overly dry - some of it is over 2 years old and some of it is punky so it might have something to do with the wood.

Is this normal or is it dangerous? It makes me very nervous.

It's great to have an experienced VC owner to consult with = Thanks again for all of your help!

 

[PA. Woodsman]

I just wanted to share my stove story and the dollar bill test with you guys; I have a 15 year-old Dovre Aurora (they stopped making these around 1997) and from the beginning the upper left side of the door always was looser with that dollar bill test, no matter what "adjustments" I made to the latch and the hinge-plate on the right side of the stove. I recently tried again to rectify this, but could not. I sometimes wonder if the door was warped from the factory. What I did that you may or may not want to try is this-I got some flat gasket from my buddy at the stoveshop that had some adhesive on the back of it. I put this flat gasket over top of the regular gasket; I glued it on with gasket cement. This filled in that "gap" and seems to be working just fine. Just something for you to inquire/think about. Good luck!

 

[homebrewz]

Oh yes, now I remember. I don't know if anyone else uses the incense trick, but it worked for me when I was checking the integrity of factory seals and gaskets.

Mine glows periodically as well. I believe what you are seeing is a reflection in the metal of the heat exchanger from the cat lighting off. Either that, or the heat exchanger is actually glowing due to the high temperature of the cat lighting off. Either way, I believe its a normal occurrence.

 

[Sophie]

I believe what you are seeing is a reflection in the metal of the heat exchanger from the cat lighting off. Either that, or the heat exchanger is actually glowing due to the high temperature of the cat lighting off.

What is the "cat lighting off?" I am not that familiar with the mechanics of the catalytic converter - I just light the match and, on occasion, am able to get a fire going with a lot of babysitting and a few sticks of fat wood!

 

[homebrewz]

The catalytic combustor.. by closing the damper after a fire is established, you are forcing the exhaust through the catalyst or catalytic combustor so most, or preferably all of the secondary gasses can be burned. Catalytic elements will sometimes glow during this process. While its easy to see in other stoves, its not always easy to see in our model of stove because the combustor is partially hidden from view.

 

[downeast]

Dear Sophie:
Doing the gaskets is fussy and messy. The grooves have to be scraped and sanded smooth and cleaned before lightly coating gasket cement (aka "water glass") in the grooves. Do a dry test with the cut gasket before applying the cement ; be sure NOT to pull or stretch the gasket since it decreases the diameter.
Most important: demand high density gaskets, not the usual ones. The HD gaskets fill up more space and don't compress as easily as the usual "rope" gaskets.
I use scotch tape over the ends to be cut for a clean edge, and a new blade each time. The tape burns off.
The cement is messy, and stains the skin; ask your friendly doc or EMT for latex gloves.

We've had a few Encores over the years doing ALL gaskets every year. Read the manual or do a search here for tips on using the cat. It takes some time to learn how to burn it correctly, but then it's an efficient stove.
Good luck.

 

[Sophie]

thanks to all for info/advice.

Downeaster - we have odds and ends gaskets - we had two 5/16 gaskets - one was from a VC kit and the other was what I believe to be what you mentioned - a high density gasket - although it was not labeled high density it seemed to have more substance than the other - unfortunately we didn't have enough to line both doors. that may be our next step. Or maybe a nice Woodstock Fireview - I have read that they are really good stoves with happy owners.

Did your own VC stoves pass the dollar tests on the top and bottom parts of the doors? Do you agree that the glow/noise from the catalyst is normal near the back of the stove?

I found another thread - apparently someone else is having the same exact problem with their VC:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/30027/

I am really not impressed with these stoves - they really are beautiful but it seems like they are a lot more trouble than other stoves.

 

[downeast]

Sophie:
When all systems are operating correctly, the Encore, and it's big bro Defiant cat stoves are the most efficient wood stoves we've used for full time heating.
Installed right in doors that are not warped ( check for this ), the damper, top, and flue collar, the right sized gaskets will give you a "tight dollar" fit all around.
The weak link in the VC cats made by CFM post 1995, is the construction quality, user maintenance, and the integrity of the cat box assembly. Repairs and replacements are expensive and can be time consuming.
Many don't want to do the time on this maintence, and prefer a less fussy non-cat stove. We have both.

 

[Sophie]

I don't know - it's a beautiful stove and when it's working right it's great - maybe if we can resolve the dollar bill issue - that scares me - we bought it in 1988 so it wasn't after the company transition and the doors don't appear to be warped at all.

Did you ever notice the catalyst glowing on your stoves? I watch our stove very closely, so I'm pretty sure that it doesn't happen on a regular basis

Thank you for the info.

 

[downeast]

I don't know - it's a beautiful stove and when it's working right it's great - maybe if we can resolve the dollar bill issue - that scares me - we bought it in 1988 so it wasn't after the company transition and the doors don't appear to be warped at all.
Did you ever notice the catalyst glowing on your stoves? I watch our stove very closely, so I'm pretty sure that it doesn't happen on a regular basis Thank you for the info.

The original real VC Encores had the cat access panel in the rear of the stove. It was a PITA to get at it so they changed the access to behind the fireback in the early 90's ( Craig will get the exact date. Do it Web! ). We never noticed the cat glowing with the older or newer Encores. What glows is probably the cast box behind the stove; that seems too hot for safe burning. Warning here!
Your key to the Encore should be the cat assembly box which can deteriorate over the years. It's fragile, but replaceable and $$$. You're at a point when the stove has done its job anyhow if it had been used hard. Newer EPA stoves will pay you back quickly. Plenty of opinions here.

 

[homebrewz]

I've seen many posts where folks have talked about the "cat lighting off" and "glowing" during operation, and that a cat doesn't have to glow to be operating, but sometimes
it will. I always assumed thats what was happening when I see the same glow on my #0028. However, I'm open to other ideas.. I'd just like some clarification. I thought it also might be the heat exchanger heating up, that strip of metal that helps hold the cat in place. After all, when you have established a fire and close off the damper, sometimes the flame is directed right on that strip of metal before exiting through the cat.

btw, the cat "box" (haha.. cat box) is also known as the refractory package. I think I bought one for $200 3 years ago, but I believe they are more expensive now.

 

[downeast]

I've seen many posts where folks have talked about the "cat lighting off" and "glowing" during operation, and that a cat doesn't have to glow to be operating, but sometimes
it will. I always assumed thats what was happening when I see the same glow on my #0028. However, I'm open to other ideas.. I'd just like some clarification. I thought it also might be the heat exchanger heating up, that strip of metal that helps hold the cat in place. After all, when you have established a fire and close off the damper, sometimes the flame is directed right on that strip of metal before exiting through the cat.

btw, the cat "box" (haha.. cat box) is also known as the refractory package. I think I bought one for $200 3 years ago, but I believe they are more expensive now.

Yes , we know HB. But isn't "cat box" better than a geeky "refractory assembly package" ? Tell me. :roll:

 

[homebrewz]

btw, the cat "box" (haha.. cat box) is also known as the refractory package. I think I bought one for $200 3 years ago, but I believe they are more expensive now.

Yes , we know HB. But isn't "cat box" better than a geeky "refractory assembly package" ? Tell me. :roll:

Fair enough, but seeing how I had to spend $200 for a new one a few years ago, I'm going to call it the refractory. I wouldn't spend that much on a cat box, unless it was self-cleaning.

 

[Sophie]

This stove was purchased in 1988 and the inside says 1986, although I'm not sure if that is the manufacture date. The catalyst is removed from the back of the stove. Maybe we should drag it down to Antiques Roadshow!

I have attached a picture of the inside of the stove which shows the opening that glows - I don't think it is the back of the firebox that glows - but from whatever is beyond the opening at the back of the firebox. We do have a heat shield on the back of the stove and I never checked the back of the stove when it was glowing.

This has happened twice. The stove is in very good shape because we never used it as a heat source - we only used it recreationally and never inhaled! :coolsmile:

 

[homebrewz]

That oblong hole is the passageway to the cat. You force combustion gasses through that hole when you close the damper. Below is a cross-section
view of that process taken from the manual. The arrow leading from the wood into that hole is pointing to the top of the cat. The thing clamped onto
the right side of the cat, is a piece of sheet metal called the heat exchanger. Thats basically what you see when you look through that oblong hole
in the firebox.

 

[Sophie]

To continue the ongoing saga of my VC Defiant Encore....late last night I had put a few logs in the stove, closed the damper and turned down the thermostat. When I checked it before going to bed I noticed that there was a significant amount of flame even though I had turned it down - I found that I couldn’t latch the door. That was when I really freaked and quickly got got the significant other’s attention. He couldn’t latch it closed either and ended up staying up all night with it.

He, of course, was only able to work on it after it cooled off. What he found was that the right door had sagged - the door bolts weren’t loose, but the latch wasn’t lining up. He said it was a real PITA but finally got it right. He says that the gaskets are a lot tighter - I’m much fussier about it than he is, so I can’t confirm that yet.

Will repost when I know more..