dumb question on Romex

[RustyShackleford]

I feel stupid not knowing this ...

We all know all 120-240v wiring connections must be made in junction boxes. And that it's ok to leave unused (not energized) Romex in walls and elsewhere. But if there is a piece of energized Romex, is it ok to just leave an end free (not in a box) if it's taped up good (or wire-nutted) ? In an attic or crawlspace. I'd think the answer would be an obvious "no" but this is done in a couple of places in my house, built 1987-88. Maybe just a lame-ass inspector ?

 

[RustyShackleford]

NEC 300.15 seems to suggest this is not cool. Though there seems to be some disagreement on this at Mike Holt's forum:

https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=122090&page=3

 

[MTY]

I'd say no, but if the intention was to add light fixtures where the splice would be inside the fixture someone may have just failed to complete the job.

When I wired my shop, the inspector told me I should not have used boxes where the lights went. His assumption was that I was going to use flouresent fixtures. Not so, a flouresent light can make a lathe chuck look like it is stopped.

 

[vinny11950]

I think by code, it is a no. But I had to do it in the attic for a while until I could get in there and sort it out. However, if you forget about it then it becomes permanent.

 

[tadmaz]

Put a handy box up there.

 

[Highbeam]

I can’t quote code but no, put it in a box. The box must be accessible too and have a cover. Boxes are super cheap so there is almost no reward for skipping it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I can’t quote code but no, put it in a box. The box must be accessible too and have a cover. Boxes are super cheap so there is almost no reward for skipping it.

Ah yes, but boxes must be accessible, and this one would not be. I suppose I could figure out where the "upstream" end of the wire is and disconnect it in that box.

 

[Highbeam]

Ah yes, but boxes must be accessible, and this one would not be. I suppose I could figure out where the "upstream" end of the wire is and disconnect it in that box.

Whoa! So your first option was to wire nut the ends of a live wire and bury it in a wall? No. Definitely not cool.

Please go upstream and disconnect at an old box or cut the wire where you can place a new box.

Even when I bury a dead wire in a wall, I wire nut all three ends together so that if a future person tried to use it, the breaker would keep popping.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Whoa! So your first option was to wire nut the ends of a live wire and bury it in a wall? No. Definitely not cool.

Yet that's exactly what the idiot electrician, who wired this house, did - except he just taped it, not even any wire nuts. And the inspectors passed it (maybe they didn't see this).

Please go upstream and disconnect at an old box or cut the wire where you can place a new box.

Roget that.

Even when I bury a dead wire in a wall, I wire nut all three ends together so that if a future person tried to use it, the breaker would keep popping.

Actually, in that discussion at Mike Holt that I linked, people talk about that and it's considered a bad idea to rely on the breaker that way.

 

[Highbeam]

Actually, in that discussion at Mike Holt that I linked, people talk about that and it's considered a bad idea to rely on the breaker that way.

That’s ridiculous. Must be a misunderstanding. Making the dead wire unusable is far superior to leaving it in a condition that is unsafe but usable just until it starts a fire. You’re not relying on a breaker, the breaker is a second level of protection behind the brains of the next guy that finds the dead wire and wonders if he should use it.

You don’t need to be an electrician to wire your home at all. Zero competence needed. You are supposed to get a permit so that the inspector can spot check your work.

In the old house that I live in I’ve found some seriously crazy stuff. The guy wanted to add an outlet so rather than cutting the existing hot wire and putting the three ends in a wire nut in a box he just stripped off some insulation from the existing wires and wrapped the new wire around the old one. Tape but no box. It worked.

 

[RustyShackleford]

That’s ridiculous. Must be a misunderstanding. Making the dead wire unusable is far superior to leaving it in a condition that is unsafe but usable just until it starts a fire.

I think they're talking about wire-nutting the wires separately instead of together.

 

[johneh]

Dam now I feel stupid I had no idea what a wire nut was
Had to look it up . I'm 70 and we always call a wire nut a
Marr connector or a marrette after the guy who invented them

 

[hockeypuck]

I have done my fair share of "old work" and the only reason why you would wire nut individual wires and then tape them separately would be to make it easy to continue an existing installation. Putting the "grounded conductor" in contact with the "conductor" on purpose is not a valid working premise.. period. If I had to bury a wire that I knew was dead, I would cut the "neutral" and "conductor" wires at different lengths and then bend them back over the main wire and tape them with electrical tape. Leaving wire nuts on them would leave the next guy to think this is a good option to feed other circuit.

 

[peakbagger]

Electricians have wire tracing tools that make it easy to trace wires through the house to find where they are run.

 

[zrock]

As noted above find the live connection point and disconnect wire nut the ends together so if someone ever tried to use it again it will blow the beaker. Thats the only save way to do it... Putting the live end in a junction box is still a no no if its live..

 

[Ashful]

Ah yes, but boxes must be accessible, and this one would not be. I suppose I could figure out where the "upstream" end of the wire is and disconnect it in that box.

Define “inaccessible”. Previously you mentioned this was in an attic or crawl space, but then later there’s an assumption it’s in a wall. Can the junction box not be made accessible in some way?

 

[RustyShackleford]

Putting the live end in a junction box is still a no no if its live..

But putting the live end in a junction box and attaching it to a duplex outlet is ok ?

 

[RustyShackleford]

Define “inaccessible”. Previously you mentioned this was in an attic or crawl space, but then later there’s an assumption it’s in a wall. Can the junction box not be made accessible in some way?

It's complicated. Kinda in an inaccessible part of an attic, if that makes sense. Maybe I can move it to an accessible part of the attic. If not, I can not only disconnect it at the "upstream" end, I can snip off the Romex there and push it out so it doesn't even enter the box any more.

 

[peakbagger]

IMHO , that's the right way to do it, disconnect it at the source and get the wires out of the box then seal up the hole. Some future renovator may curse a bit when they find a dead wire but at least its dead.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Struggling with what to do. The original electricians used an outdoor GCFI outlet to additionally protect another outdoor outlet, an outlet in the "public" bathroom, and two in the master bath (in that sequence). That seems a bit excessive to me, but at least they didn't put the kitchen outlets on the same circuit :-( ). As I'm working in the MBR (installing shower vent fan, per other thread), I'm tempted to disconnect the two master bath outlets (from the other GCFI stuff) and connect them (and the shower fan) to the single circuit that serves the MBR (and only the MBR). If I do that, it's the GCFI-protected line coming into the MBR area that I'd be terminating. Maybe that's not a wise tradeoff. Or maybe I really ought to run another circuit for GCFI outlet and shower fan in the MBR.

Choices:
1. Leave things as they are (adding shower fan to GCFI circuit which also serves three outlets in two bathrooms and two outdoor outlets).
2. Move the two master bath outlets to the main MBR circuit (adding GCFI); hang the shower fan on that same GCFI.
3. Run another circuit for the master bath GCFI outlets and the shower fan.

I favor #2. Not much load in the MBR, maybe a hairdryer; but maybe #3 is the right thing to do.

 

[Ashful]

I would just re-route it to an accessible area, run it into a handy box attached to a joist or rafter, wire nut and tape the wires, cap the box, and kill the breaker if there’s nothing else I needed on circuit. If you need other fixtures on that circuit, there is no reason not to leave it live.

If you pull that wire out, I’m going to bet you $10 that it won’t be more than two years before you need to run power to something in that area, and wish you still had that circuit installed.

 

[MTY]

No to the shower fan on the GCFI. If you do that, a steamy shower will trip it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

No to the shower fan on the GCFI. If you do that, a steamy shower will trip it.

Required by code.

 

[AlbergSteve]

Required by code.

Really?

 

[bholler]

Really?

Absolutely as it should be. If done correctly the steam won't trip the gfi