Efficiency of non EPA furnace

[Lcback]

So I had been planning on buying a Drolet tundra to heat our 2,200 sqft ranch.
Honestly though I can't shake the idea of wood/coal. Especially since I live in PA and can get it delivered for $70 a ton.
It's tough to find the time to find enough wood before cutting and splitting.
Took me until the end of February to find split and stack the 3.5 cords for this year.
And of course the savings account I was using to save the $1700 for the tundra got raided for Dr. Bills and summer tires for the wife's car. That leaves me quite a bit short for the tundra. Not to mention the cost of ducting, running electric, etc.

So I checked into and found that I can get a big enough daka wood/ coal furnace with extra blower and coal grates for $500 less than the tundra.

I'm trying to be non biased and get all the facts. But the $500 and the ability to burn coal when I run out of wood every year is sure sounding like a win win.

But in the spirit of finding all the facts I am trying to figure out what efficiency this thing would actually burn with. So far I want find any numbers on the old style furnaces besides "epa exempt"
Anyone have actual information to help me out?

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[BoilerMan]

Anthracite for $70 a ton? Holy smokes batman.........it's $280 a ton here! Burn coal, if it were that cheap here I do that. There a quite a few people around here who burn coal. A couple who have hand-fired stoves, but most have stoker boilers in large buildings. I don't think at 70bucks a ton wood would....even be worth it. I had a wood/coal boiler with shakers, but anthracite is much easier to burn well (efficiently) than wood. It's the ash and the handling that is dirty.

TS

 

[Lcback]

I should have stated better. It's soft coal bituminous. I know it's not all the rage. But the price per btu is un beatable. Proper burning techniques help with the dirt people complain about. A lot like wood
Anthracite is about $200 a ton here

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[bholler]

You really are considering burning bituminous coal?

 

[Lcback]

Why not? People burned it for 200 years before oil. My neighbors still do. Bit coal only. Never Noticed a smell or dirt from them. Coal makes no creosote, It doesn't have to be seasoned, it makes more heat than most of the wood around me, it doesn't need stacked, and can burn 18 hours at a time in an old wood burner. Not to mention I can call order it and throw it in the fire the same day. Forgive me I'm not quite understanding your tone.
I want to burn mostly wood, all the wood I can find for free. But the idea that I'll never run out, or my job won't make finding the time impossible, or that I can just afford to buy all my wood is foolish.

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[bholler]

Why not? People burned it for 200 years before oil. My neighbors still do. Bit coal only. Never Noticed a smell or dirt from them. Coal makes no creosote, It doesn't have to be seasoned, it makes more heat than most of the wood around me, it doesn't need stacked, and can burn 18 hours at a time in an old wood burner. Forgive me I'm not quite understanding your tone.

I have no problem with burning coal I burnt anthracite for years. But I would never consider bituminous. It is very dirty it makes tons of coal gas and co. There is a reason almost no one burns it for residential heat anymore. Out of all of our customers only one burns bituminous and i absolutly hate servicing their stove and chimney. The stuff is nasty.

 

[Lcback]

I have no problem with burning coal I burnt anthracite for years. But I would never consider bituminous. It is very dirty it makes tons of coal gas and co. There is a reason almost no one burns it for residential heat anymore. Out of all of our customers only one burns bituminous and i absolutly hate servicing their stove and chimney. The stuff is nasty.

I guess it depends on how much you are willing to clean up. We are high in elevation with a lot of wind I'm not to worries about the smell or air quality (i know shame on me)

My dad burned almost nothing but bit coal for the first year ever in his buck stove. Said his only complaint was how little he could fit in, and how much ash it makes.

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[bholler]

We are high in elevation with a lot of wind I'm not to worries about the smell or air quality

What about the danger of co in the house or a coal gas explosion?

My dad burned almost nothing but bit coal for the first year ever in his buck stove. Said his only complaint was how little he could fit in, and how much ash it makes.

Bit is also very corrosive even more so than anthracite (which is pretty bad) It eats up stoves pretty quick.

 

[bholler]

If you are fully aware of the increased danger of using bit over anthracite (as well as the increased dirt and environmental impact) that is your prerogative. I just wanted to point them out. And yes people used to heat with it all the time in areas where anthracite was not available. And people also died from co poisoning black lung and other problems.

 

[maple1]

I have no experience with burning coal, despite the vast history of it here. My only input is that I would not let a $500 difference in overall cost on a heating system choice be the deciding factor.

 

[brenndatomu]

save the $1700 for the tundra

If it matters...Tundra is still on sale for $1499 at Menards...probably go even lower in the fall if they still have any of the original model Tundras left.
If you are looking to burn coal and money is tight, I'd consider just buying a used unit. There are usually plenty of "gently used" Dakas, HotBlasts and the like on CL in the heating months.
If money was no issue, I hear DS Machine makes a decent wood/coal furnace. (broken link removed to http://woodstoves.net/ds-stoves/wood/ds-machine-stoves-300-09-kozy-king-wood-and-coal-furnace.htm)
Also, nepacrossroads forum is a good source of knowledge for coal heat junkies...just FYI

 

[Lcback]

If it matters...Tundra is still on sale for $1499 at Menards...probably go even lower in the fall if they still have any of the original model Tundras left.
If you are looking to burn coal and money is tight, I'd consider just buying a used unit. There are usually plenty of "gently used" Dakas, HotBlasts and the like on CL in the heating months.
If money was no issue, I hear DS Machine makes a decent wood/coal furnace. (broken link removed to http://woodstoves.net/ds-stoves/wood/ds-machine-stoves-300-09-kozy-king-wood-and-coal-furnace.htm)
Also, nepacrossroads forum is a good source of knowledge for coal heat junkies...just FYI

Yeah I saw that. Bummer I don't have that much saved up yet. I'll probably hold off until late summer to buy just in case the deals get better or I come into some money.

I joined nepa cross roads. Certainly lots of informative folks. Thanks for the suggestion.
I'm thinking the daka is better then the hotblast. It has double the thickness steel, actual shakers, and will take an induction blower kit if I need one.
Also made in USA.
I'm thinking this could also be a stepping stone could of years.
Burn wood and coal while I build up a well seasoned supply and money is tight. Hopefully if I stick to my plan in 3-4 years I should be able to buy one of those nice Amish made wood coal 74% furnaces. I saw on DS stove

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[Lcback]

So I'm guessing no one knows the actual efficiency of the old style smoke dragons.
I would imagine the epa to have numbers somewhere if they set a minimum for the certified ones.

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[bholler]

So I'm guessing no one knows the actual efficiency of the old style smoke dragons.
I would imagine the epa to have numbers somewhere if they set a minimum for the certified ones.

Those old stoves where never tested so no we do not know the numbers.

 

[brenndatomu]

I've heard many industry insiders refer to them using ballpark #s like 50-60% (depending on design) just for arguments sake. Like B said, most were never tested so no way to know for sure...and for any that were tested by the Mfr, the test data was never publicised. Also your individual operating habits and set-up can affect the outcome too...same with the newer stuff...but they tell you exactly how to set 'em up now sooo...

 

[Lcback]

Any of you guys know about the Shelter furnaces. SF2631 looks perfect for my needs. Has secondary combustion and shaker grates for coal.

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[brenndatomu]

Any of you guys know about the Shelter furnaces. SF2631 looks perfect for my needs. Has secondary combustion and shaker grates for coal.

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I looked at those at Menards...look well built...they are actually made by FireChief...buy they do not have true secondary combustion, not in the way a Tundra or any other "EPA" design firebox has anyways. They do have a secondary heat exchanger where you may get a little combustion of wood gas for a bit right after a fresh load of real dry wood. Should be a good coal burner...nice shaker grate system.
@Wisneaky bought one after his Tundra cracked, the last I heard he was liking it well enough.

 

[Lcback]

Thanks. It comes in darn close to the price of the daka with all the coal stuff added to it. I know a local hardware store sells fire chief. I'll see if he can do a shelter and price. There aren't any menards around here.
The fact what it can burn Anthricite is pretty impressive daka specifically forbids it.
I know you guys with 3 years wood ready and still adding might not understand. But being able to order fuel like coal with a days notice for 1/4 the price of propane is a huge weight off your shoulder. I will be giving this a through look

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[Highbeam]

I've read good things about the shelter.

Efficiency of any woodburner is really a silly figure to worry about. The burn cycle, the quality of fuel, whether it is being run hard or idling, the flue setup, etc. all have huge effects on actual efficiency. Even the emissions rate tells you little about how much wood you will use each year since some manufacturers have sacrificed efficiency just to get a cleaner burn.

What I think is odd about the shelter or other wood/coal designs is that the air is fed under the fire through grates. You won't see this on a wood only unit like the tundra. That air feed under the fire will get you a dang high output fire when you want it but long burn times are not very likely since there is no place for coals to hide. In my rather huge shop I burn my stove (no furnaces were legal until recently in WA) at max output to heat the place from 50-70 so the Shelter design would be pretty awesome. Like a little blast furnace. In my house, or heating a house, the inability to burn low and slow would be irritating.

 

[Highbeam]

Oh and burn whatever is legal and cheap. If that's soft coal, then I would burn that too. Take safety precautions, install to code with permits, have insurance, and perform maintenance of course but burn what's cheap. That's why many/most of us do this.

 

[Lcback]

I've read good things about the shelter.

Efficiency of any woodburner is really a silly figure to worry about. The burn cycle, the quality of fuel, whether it is being run hard or idling, the flue setup, etc. all have huge effects on actual efficiency. Even the emissions rate tells you little about how much wood you will use each year since some manufacturers have sacrificed efficiency just to get a cleaner burn.

What I think is odd about the shelter or other wood/coal designs is that the air is fed under the fire through grates. You won't see this on a wood only unit like the tundra. That air feed under the fire will get you a dang high output fire when you want it but long burn times are not very likely since there is no place for coals to hide. In my rather huge shop I burn my stove (no furnaces were legal until recently in WA) at max output to heat the place from 50-70 so the Shelter design would be pretty awesome. Like a little blast furnace. In my house, or heating a house, the inability to burn low and slow would be irritating.

About the air intake.
I looked up the diagram. On the Shelter there is forced induction with a plate on the inside. The plate has holes drilled at the fire level for normal burning I imagine. But when that blower kicks in and calls for a lot of heat it blows it both through the holes and underneath the grates following that plate
My understanding is for coal. Coal likes air to come from the bottom up and lots of it. That is what I have been told anyway by old timers. No real science shown to me

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[Lcback]

Oh and burn whatever is legal and cheap. If that's soft coal, then I would burn that too. Take safety precautions, install to code with permits, have insurance, and perform maintenance of course but burn what's cheap. That's why many/most of us do this.

Yeah, I all ready have the insurance paper work. Probably can't do professional install I imagine it's pricey. But will be sure to follow all safety codes. I actually want to line the walls around it with cement board or similar. Right now they have foam insulation. It is a poured concrete foundation. I imagine that if that Styrofoam like material would ignite it would be bad.

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[Highbeam]

Yeah, I all ready have the insurance paper work. Probably can't do professional install I imagine it's pricey. But will be sure to follow all safety codes. I actually want to line the walls around it with cement board or similar. Right now they have foam insulation. It is a poured concrete foundation. I imagine that if that Styrofoam like material would ignite it would be bad.

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I would almost never recommend a professional installation but definitely a permitted installation that would be inspected to meet code and satisfy your insurance company in the event of a house fire. Liability if someone dies, even decades after you sell the home, is a big deal. Criminal and civil.

It's not code compliant, even without a stove, to have exposed foam in living space. I've burned a chunk of that foam outside in a firepit, it would be really bad if that happened in your house.

 

[Lcback]

Thanks. I didn't know that. I imagine the foam isn't considered living space being it is an unfinished basement. But I wrongly assumed it was fire retardant to be okay.
I need to find some information on how thick of cement board or other product I should put up.

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[brenndatomu]

Just FYI, if you are going to put cement board or sheet metal (whatever) up for a heat shield, then there must be an air gap behind it...and the top and bottom have to be open or vented in a way that will allow air to circulate behind (the ole hot air rises routine) without the air gap the heat can be transferred to the surface behind it pretty easily.