EKO 40 Install design (Take II)
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Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
The first thing I see that could be an issue is that if you are using your electric boiler, you will be providing heat to all of your zones at the same time. Not sure if thats what you want to do or not. Also, would you be using the primary circ on the wood boiler for charging your storage as well?
Yes, my intentions were to have the electric boiler run all 4 zones equally as the system is originally installed. Yes to the second question as well. Do I need to put the circ before the tee going to the tanks on the return line?
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
Quick scan - couple thoughts:
1) As previously noted, elec boiler drives all zones at once. You could make two changes that would help: First, use a circ with integral check for the electric boiler. Second, move the elec boiler outlet to the left side of the zone valves (connect to hot side of zone valves). That would also let you drop the zone check valves.
2) You could get ghost flow through the EKO when heating from storage. Be careful when plumbing to make the path through storage very low flow restriction.
3) All circulators should have integral check valves. Your life will be better.
With change #1 above, this is almost exactly the configuration described in 'simplest pressurized storage' sticky, with the improvement of putting the backup boiler outlet downstream of the load ciculator.
1) As previously noted, elec boiler drives all zones at once. You could make two changes that would help: First, use a circ with integral check for the electric boiler. Second, move the elec boiler outlet to the left side of the zone valves (connect to hot side of zone valves). That would also let you drop the zone check valves.
2) You could get ghost flow through the EKO when heating from storage. Be careful when plumbing to make the path through storage very low flow restriction.
3) All circulators should have integral check valves. Your life will be better.
With change #1 above, this is almost exactly the configuration described in 'simplest pressurized storage' sticky, with the improvement of putting the backup boiler outlet downstream of the load ciculator.
Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
burn baby 2010 said:
You wouldnt want the circ before the tee, because there there wouldnt be any way for the mixing valve to help you. You would either need to "push" through the valve on the hot side, or pull on the tempered side. If you try to push on the cold side, the valve would stay closed.
Another option could be to move the pump you have that supplies the zones currently and move it to the common supply leaving the wood boiler, then add a zone valve for the storage. This way you could choose when you would like to charge the storage. The way it looks now you would almost always be pulling some water from storage unless all four of your zones were calling for heat.
(Nofossil)2)" You could get ghost flow through the EKO when heating from storage. Be careful when plumbing to make the path through storage very low flow restriction."
Nofossil, I'm not sure what exactly you mean about the ghost flow. Are you recommending restricting the flow, or eliminating the restrictions. I've seen ghost flow mentioned before on this site, but frankly don't really understand it or what causes it.
(Clarkbug) "This way you could choose when you would like to charge the storage."
I'm not sure I understand this principal. I really don't want to choose when I charge the storage. I want to charge the storage as soon as the house is warm and there is still a fire in my wood boiler.
I do understand that I need to move the supply circ below the tee so the pump is not pulling from the storage. My question is do I even need two circ pumps? It seems somewhat redundant to have one circ right before the boiler and one immediately after.
Nofossil, I'm not sure what exactly you mean about the ghost flow. Are you recommending restricting the flow, or eliminating the restrictions. I've seen ghost flow mentioned before on this site, but frankly don't really understand it or what causes it.
(Clarkbug) "This way you could choose when you would like to charge the storage."
I'm not sure I understand this principal. I really don't want to choose when I charge the storage. I want to charge the storage as soon as the house is warm and there is still a fire in my wood boiler.
I do understand that I need to move the supply circ below the tee so the pump is not pulling from the storage. My question is do I even need two circ pumps? It seems somewhat redundant to have one circ right before the boiler and one immediately after.
Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
Ghost flow is when you get water movement through part of the system where you do not want/intend for there to be. What NoFossil is saying is that when you are running the circ pump that is shown just ahead of the zone valves, you could also be pulling water through the boiler unintentionally. By reducing the flow restriction through storage, water will choose that path instead of moving through your un-fired EKO.
My thoughts were that you might want to stop the flow through storage and push all of your heat into the house at first. Then once the majority of your house zones are satisfied, the zone for the storage could open and then you would charge that. It admittedly adds complexity, and would depend on your control scheme. It really wouldnt be much of an issue if the system was already up to temp.
I would think you need two circ pumps so that you can get the heat into and out of storage. Otherwise you would be pumping through your boiler all of the time, which will create heat loss for you.
My thoughts were that you might want to stop the flow through storage and push all of your heat into the house at first. Then once the majority of your house zones are satisfied, the zone for the storage could open and then you would charge that. It admittedly adds complexity, and would depend on your control scheme. It really wouldnt be much of an issue if the system was already up to temp.
I would think you need two circ pumps so that you can get the heat into and out of storage. Otherwise you would be pumping through your boiler all of the time, which will create heat loss for you.
Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
Also, I realized it may be worthwhile to check out this link from the TARM folks.
http://woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf
Page 19 or 20 should be in the realm of what your system looks like.
Just some more food for thought.
http://woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf
Page 19 or 20 should be in the realm of what your system looks like.
Just some more food for thought.
Ok Folks, I changed my sketch here to show my circ before the tee (on hot side). I also added a zone valve after the storage as was recommended.
My next question is whether I need a check valve on the return line between the elec boiler and wood boiler. The new circs for the wood boiler have built in ones, but the old Taco on the electric boiler does not.
My next question is whether I need a check valve on the return line between the elec boiler and wood boiler. The new circs for the wood boiler have built in ones, but the old Taco on the electric boiler does not.
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Clarkbug
Minister of Fire
Im afraid I may have given bad advice earlier, and for that I apologize. Thats what I get when I type before I think.
As of right now, I dont see a way for this system to get the heat from your storage tank out to your zones... It will allow you to charge it, but I dont see a way to extract it.
Based on my first gaffe, Im hesitant to suggest an alternative arrangement at this point, other than to look at NoFossil's "Simple Pressurized Storage" sticky for ideas.
As of right now, I dont see a way for this system to get the heat from your storage tank out to your zones... It will allow you to charge it, but I dont see a way to extract it.
Based on my first gaffe, Im hesitant to suggest an alternative arrangement at this point, other than to look at NoFossil's "Simple Pressurized Storage" sticky for ideas.
stee6043
Minister of Fire
Here is what I would recommend - take the EKO and shift it (in the diagram) to the left of the storage. Have your supply from the EKO plumb in at the zone valve (and ditch the zone valve) and tie the return at the bottom of your storage. Use one circ right at the return of the EKO controlled by the EKO. Put the other circ just upstream of your zones. I suspect you could leave the zone valves that you have on the zoens but you could probably find a way to get around those too. Either way, by making this move anytime you have a call for heat your "load circ" should turn on which will pull supply from the EKO or storage (if EKO is no running). If there is no call for heat the supply from the EKO should flow through storage.
If you run this route you'll have to modify your existing boiler plumbing so it's not charging storage, rather supplying the zones only.
I hope this helps. Right now the setup you have is a bit "odd". I think we can improve. Do you have plans for overheat protection? Having zone valves on every supply line is a bad idea. Zone valves can fall/stick...
If you run this route you'll have to modify your existing boiler plumbing so it's not charging storage, rather supplying the zones only.
I hope this helps. Right now the setup you have is a bit "odd". I think we can improve. Do you have plans for overheat protection? Having zone valves on every supply line is a bad idea. Zone valves can fall/stick...
Thanks Clark and Stee for your input. Stee, I don't really have plans for overheat protection-just yet. That being said, I have plans to run pex along the rafters of my garage for a dump zone, but really need to get the system running first.
I am not sure why you are against zone valves, I did alot of research and decided to go with zone valves as opposed to circulators.
Anyways, the last comments have me thinking about the water movement under the four scenarios. I attached 4 sketches (I may have to do two seperate posts). Each sketch shows the movement of the water (Orange highlites). I did also highlite in purple areas where I question what the water may be doing in these areas.
Please feel free to chime in.
I am not sure why you are against zone valves, I did alot of research and decided to go with zone valves as opposed to circulators.
Anyways, the last comments have me thinking about the water movement under the four scenarios. I attached 4 sketches (I may have to do two seperate posts). Each sketch shows the movement of the water (Orange highlites). I did also highlite in purple areas where I question what the water may be doing in these areas.
Please feel free to chime in.
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