Electric Splitter tripping GFI

[Soundchasm]

This has been a crazy year. I swear if I was having a heart attack it'd have to wait... But it's all still good in the big picture.

Powerhouse 7T FX128-Z

Am running far behind this year. Went to start splitting 19/20 stuff. Hauled the (so-called) 7-ton electric down the hill, used decent extension cords (50' of 12 ga and 25' of 14 ga). Hit the switch, the motor barely spun for less than a second and the GFI tripped. Haul everything back up and repeat a dozen times trying no extension cords, other outlets, etc.

Outlet is fine.
Cables are fine
Splitter is not fine.

Spins for about a second and GFI trips. This splitter is set up so the motor is "always on".

I check all the connections, inspect the wires, switch and cap and nothing jumps out. Exercise all the connectors and add dielectric compound. Still no good.

Casual reading indicates the motor could be bad. This has been a year for extensive repairs that are good learning experiences, but I'm getting fairly tired of getting new knowledge like this...

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[Soundchasm]

Well, I probably should delete the above post, but here's what I figured out.

Took the splitter inside to use a recently installed electrical circuit that I know was done right (I've got an old house).

Positioned the wife at the breaker box so we wouldn't have to hunt down the breaker that tripped.

Was all ready, hit the switch, and the splitter just ran, NP. Well, other than getting nothing done today, I have to call this a good outcome.

This must mean the outside GFI is old and tired. I didn't suspect it because it's always running a fairly healthy pond pump (8 gal/min?).

So, my next post in a week or two ought to be one healthy stack of splits!! Stand down, as you were. ;-)

 

[TreePointer]

Just to clarify, are you talking about a GFI being tripped in the wall outlet itself or at a GFI switch in your breaker box?

FWIW, a professional electrician told me that GFI outlets and GFI breaker switches indeed do tend to fail sooner than their non-GFI counterparts.


* * * * *
Here's a story that may help:

My father's house has two outdoor outlets--one on each side of the house. They are not GFI outlets (no test & reset buttons in the middle); however, both outlets are on the same circuit which is protected by a GFI breaker switch. Same idea.

Every time my father would run his new 12A leaf blower on an outside outlet, the GFI breaker switch would trip. Through process of elimination, we learned that there's A THIRD OUTLET on that circuit. This outlet was in an enclosed sun porch, and the outlet actually had been on an outdoor wall before the porch addition made it an indoor outlet. This third outlet had a lamp, TV, cable box, and I think something else drawing current most of the time.

SOLUTION: Since the wiring and outlets were rated to take higher current, we replaced the 15A GFI breaker switch with one rated for 20A. All within code.

 

[TreePointer]

Your splitter requires a 20A circuit. Is any part of your outdoor circuit, especially the GFI outlet, rated at 15A?

 

[Soundchasm]

Just to clarify, are you talking about a GFI being tripped in the wall outlet itself or at a GFI switch in your breaker box?

FWIW, a professional electrician told me that GFI outlets and GFI breaker switches indeed do tend to fail sooner than their non-GFI counterparts.


* * * * *
Here's a story that may help:

My father's house has two outdoor outlets--one on each side of the house. They are not GFI outlets (no test & reset buttons in the middle); however, both outlets are on the same circuit which is protected by a GFI breaker switch. Same idea.

Every time my father would run his new 12A leaf blower on an outside outlet, the GFI breaker switch would trip. Through process of elimination, we learned that there's A THIRD OUTLET on that circuit. This outlet was in an enclosed sun porch, and the outlet actually had been on an outdoor wall before the porch addition made it an indoor outlet. This third outlet had a lamp, TV, cable box, and I think something else drawing current most of the time.

SOLUTION: Since the wiring and outlets were rated to take higher current, we replaced the 15A GFI breaker switch with one rated for 20A. All within code.

TreeP, it is an outdoor GFI outlet that was supposed to be 20A. It's the same outlet I've been using since I started splitting electrically many years ago. The outlet was replaced once since 2002, but I can't remember when, but probably 2010 or 11.

It's more exposed to the elements than it should be, so it's not such a surprise in hindsight.

Now here's my head-scratcher analogue to your cool story. This is ongoing, btw.

We had a bathroom remodel a few years ago. The guy replaced an old receptacle with a GFI. I came home one day and the wife said when she turned on the microwave, the lights in the bathroom went out. The microwave is on a different breaker. "Sure they did", I quietly and safely thought to myself. I'll figure out what really happened soon enough.

Well, after she made the claim a few more times (my anti-eyeroll muscles got quite the workout), I used the microwave and the damn bathroom breaker tripped. Son of a ...

It's damnedest thing. They are on two separate breakers, but once or twice a month, the microwave kills the bathroom. The outlet is nowhere near a sink or tub, and some day I'll just switch it to a dumb outlet. If everything in a bathroom is supposed to be GFI, then I won't be compliant, but it's somewhat ridiculous for something in the kitchen to kill a bathroom. ;-)

 

[Soundchasm]

Your splitter requires a 20A circuit. Is any part of your outdoor circuit, especially the GFI outlet, rated at 15A?

I'm pretty sure we spec'd 20A. It's the same outlet I've been using for years. It's been too close to the weather w/o a proper housing. Today I used another outlet on the same circuit and it worked fine. It's also a GFI, BUT, the metal cover always stays closed.

The cover to the faulty one is always open 24x7 since the pond pump runs nine month a year.

I'll replace it with one that has the plastic cover that is still enclosed with something plugged in.

I have to run 150' of 12 ga. extension cable down to the splitting area. Anything smaller and the splitter really struggles.

 

[TreePointer]

What you say makes a lot of sense.

A person really does need a detective badge to live in one of these older, many times remodeled houses. Sleuthing is a way of life.

 

[Bad LP]

Dump that 14 ga cord if you like your electric motor. 10 ga preferred or a 12 ga only.

 

[Soundchasm]

Dump that 14 ga cord if you like your electric motor. 10 ga preferred or a 12 ga only.

Appreciate the tip. Not that I wouldn't have worked with the 14 ga., but my BIL brings 100' of 12 ga., and I've got 50', so that's the general working configuration.

 

[Rearscreen]

It's damnedest thing. They are on two separate breakers, but once or twice a month, the microwave kills the bathroom.

I'd suspect a loose neutral somewhere or a branch circuit where the ground and neutral are still bonded.

 

[jetsam]

You would also need an 8 gauge extension cord to go 150' at 120v/20a with less than 5% voltage drop. 5% is already higher than your splitter is likely to enjoy.

At a 120v/20A draw, you should go no further than 50 feet on a #12 cord. 50' brings you down to about 115v from 120v. 150 feet of #12 will end up at about 109v.

If it is really rated for 20A, it shouldn't have the same plug on it as a 15A 120v device. See NEMA 5-15 vs NEMA 5-20 in the top left of the chart below.

If it draws 15A, you are going from 120v to 112v on 150' of #12. This is disregarding any resistance at the various plug connections on the way, and also the resistance of the wire between the panel and the outlet, and also assuming the wire doesn't heat up beyond 60C.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Check your operators manual to verify the type of gfci 5 or 20ma rating. Cheap /damp/damaged cords will leak. Some gfci manf. indicate a general length to stay within operating specs. and maintain operation.

 

[zrock]

TreeP, it is an outdoor GFI outlet that was supposed to be 20A. It's the same outlet I've been using since I started splitting electrically many years ago. The outlet was replaced once since 2002, but I can't remember when, but probably 2010 or 11.

It's more exposed to the elements than it should be, so it's not such a surprise in hindsight.

Now here's my head-scratcher analogue to your cool story. This is ongoing, btw.

We had a bathroom remodel a few years ago. The guy replaced an old receptacle with a GFI. I came home one day and the wife said when she turned on the microwave, the lights in the bathroom went out. The microwave is on a different breaker. "Sure they did", I quietly and safely thought to myself. I'll figure out what really happened soon enough.

Well, after she made the claim a few more times (my anti-eyeroll muscles got quite the workout), I used the microwave and the damn bathroom breaker tripped. Son of a ...

It's damnedest thing. They are on two separate breakers, but once or twice a month, the microwave kills the bathroom. The outlet is nowhere near a sink or tub, and some day I'll just switch it to a dumb outlet. If everything in a bathroom is supposed to be GFI, then I won't be compliant, but it's somewhat ridiculous for something in the kitchen to kill a bathroom. ;-)

I would have never let this go or a few years would have fixed it right away at the contractors expense. Who knows what he did behind the wall causing this issue. Doubt its because of the gfi install that hopefully the contractor called a licenced electrician to install. He could have nailed/screwed a power line or something during the install, what ever he did is not right and should get fixed before something catches on fir or someone gets hurt or worse.

 

[jetsam]

I would have never let this go or a few years would have fixed it right away at the contractors expense. Who knows what he did behind the wall causing this issue. Doubt its because of the gfi install that hopefully the contractor called a licenced electrician to install. He could have nailed/screwed a power line or something during the install, what ever he did is not right and should get fixed before something catches on fir or someone gets hurt or worse.

That is possibly a grounding issue where one or both circuits are improperly grounded to plumbing. This happens during retrofit upgrades from 2 wire to 3 wire outlets when somebody doesn't feel like pulling a new wire. GFI wierdness is standard when the grounding is done wrong.

If that's the case, the current flow will also degrade your plumbing. Ever have pinhole leaks in your copper and wonder why?

 

[brenndatomu]

That is possibly a grounding issue where one or both circuits are improperly grounded to plumbing. This happens during retrofit upgrades from 2 wire to 3 wire outlets when somebody doesn't feel like pulling a new wire. GFI wierdness is standard when the grounding is done wrong.

If that's the case, the current flow will also degrade your plumbing. Ever have pinhole leaks in your copper and wonder why?

I have something similar, I wired a GFI in the single bathroom outlet...then when I turned on the hall light it popped the GFI. I never did figure it out, just wired the GFI so it is only acting as a GFI for itself instead of the rest of the circuit too.
Sometime later I was talking with a neighbor about it, he said he found in his house (same age as mine) that they wired the 3 way switch in some weird way where they switched both the hot and neutral wire...I'm betting that's my issue.

As far as the splitter, can you just plug into a non GFI outlet? I have run across things more than once that work fine, but would not run on a GFI. A good example is a sump pump at work...it runs all the time, and its a cheaper pump, so it needs replaced occasionally. Sometimes they will only go a few months from new until they start to pop the GFI...sometimes much longer. The solution was to remove the GFI since there is no reason to ever mess with things while its still plugged in anyways.

 

[jetsam]

With excessive GFCI trippage, also check to see if that circuit has multiple GFCIs on it. You don't want a kitchen full of GFCIs wired up as feed-throughs- it will trip constantly.

You can have a bunch of GFCI devices on the same circuit if that's your preference, but you don't wire them in feed-through mode or it will get annoying fast. I don't really "get" this since you're paying $12 an outlet for functionality that you could have had for $0.50 an outlet, but some people prefer it.

 

[Soundchasm]

You would also need an 8 gauge extension cord to go 150' at 120v/20a with less than 5% voltage drop. 5% is already higher than your splitter is likely to enjoy.

At a 120v/20A draw, you should go no further than 50 feet on a #12 cord. 50' brings you down to about 115v from 120v. 150 feet of #12 will end up at about 109v.

If it is really rated for 20A, it shouldn't have the same plug on it as a 15A 120v device. See NEMA 5-15 vs NEMA 5-20 in the top left of the chart below.

View attachment 231869


If it draws 15A, you are going from 120v to 112v on 150' of #12. This is disregarding any resistance at the various plug connections on the way, and also the resistance of the wire between the panel and the outlet, and also assuming the wire doesn't heat up beyond 60C.

Thank you for such good, detailed info. IIRC, 12ga. is about $1/ft at the box stores. Quick search online and I see it for $.50/ft. 8 ga is $2/ft. The outlet is clearly a 15A NEMA face.

I've run into line-loss before in the band. 14 ga will usually do the job. I bought a 6,000W power amp (3k per side) that came with a NEMA 5-20p. Complete surprise. Had to adapt it (replace connector) so I could use 15A outlets. Of course, I'll never ask it to do what it is capable of. But if we're outdoors, it gets its own line.

I've got a Kill-a-Watt unit I'll try to put on the splitter to see where it gives up the ghost with the factory supplied cable. Appreciate your post!

 

[Bad LP]

When you are measuring the total run to the electric motor don't forget to add the distance from the panel to the outlet.
If you can change the leads on the motor over to 220 then all the better.

 

[Soundchasm]

I would have never let this go or a few years would have fixed it right away at the contractors expense. Who knows what he did behind the wall causing this issue. Doubt its because of the gfi install that hopefully the contractor called a licenced electrician to install. He could have nailed/screwed a power line or something during the install, what ever he did is not right and should get fixed before something catches on fir or someone gets hurt or worse.

I appreciate the sentiment. The house was built in '55, so a lot of dudes have had a lot of time to do one thing or another. I've seen two wire receptacles replaced with three wire ones. The place was filled with obsolete baseboard heaters, so every room had a 220V junction. We've finally converted most of those to correct, modern outlets in the rooms.

I think the grounding scheme(s) are probably the culprit.

 

[Soundchasm]

That is possibly a grounding issue where one or both circuits are improperly grounded to plumbing. This happens during retrofit upgrades from 2 wire to 3 wire outlets when somebody doesn't feel like pulling a new wire. GFI wierdness is standard when the grounding is done wrong.

If that's the case, the current flow will also degrade your plumbing. Ever have pinhole leaks in your copper and wonder why?

Every time I've opened something up here (based on a "there's nothing to it" encouragement), I've gotten a whopping surprise. I see wires grounded to plumbing, and one or two grounding rods outside. If I win the lottery, I'm having every wire pulled out of this place and replaced!! ;-)

 

[Soundchasm]

With excessive GFCI trippage, also check to see if that circuit has multiple GFCIs on it. You don't want a kitchen full of GFCIs wired up as feed-throughs- it will trip constantly.

You can have a bunch of GFCI devices on the same circuit if that's your preference, but you don't wire them in feed-through mode or it will get annoying fast. I don't really "get" this since you're paying $12 an outlet for functionality that you could have had for $0.50 an outlet, but some people prefer it.

I finally made a breaker map of the place some years ago, and it's just crazy. Original panel has 20 breaker spaces. There are things like one breaker feeding all the outlets on three outside walls. One 10A breaker was feeding outlets in all three baths, two upstairs and one downstairs. We've gotten a number of these corrected, but it's always whack-a-mole around here.

Then there's a second panel with 40 breaker spaces. That must have gone in with the baseboard heat. Every room had 220V going to it. We've converted most of them to correct 120V outlets now. We run new lines for anything major or important.

 

[Soundchasm]

When you are measuring the total run to the electric motor don't forget to add the distance from the panel to the outlet.
If you can change the leads on the motor over to 220 then all the better.

Had not considered that. Thanks! This location is literally THE FURTHEST from the box!!

 

[Soundchasm]

OK, here's a bit of data. Ran the second day on 150' of 12/3. No GFI. This time I took the Kill-A-Watt down to measure (not that I understand).

Voltage was 120-121 at the house outlet. It was 120 at the splitter (150' 12/3). So I decided to read amperage on reasonable splitting all the way up to stalling out.

Reasonable splitting was 6-9 amps for a second or two when the round cracked in half.
Tough splitting (several tries, repositioning, prayer, profanity) would flash 15A for a second.
Stalling out would flash 20 for a second.

Checked out the voltage during splitting.
Reasonable to tough splitting would drop the voltage to 114V
Stalling out dropped the voltage to 109.

Dump that 14 ga cord if you like your electric motor. 10 ga preferred or a 12 ga only.

OK, I did some reading and discovered low voltage increases amps which increases heat. So definite possibility of shortened motor life. Did not know that. Thanks.
https://www.ecmweb.com/design/highs-and-lows-motor-voltage

I bit the bullet and bought 100' of 10/3. So the next working configuration will be 100' of 10/3 connected to 50' or 100' of 12/3. I'll take the Kill-A-Watt with me for more observations. By next year, I'll be all 10/3 for the job.

I've got 2-3 cords left of splitting to do for 19/20. AND, a lady I spoke with last year just dropped a nice oak for me. I'm at the point where I don't know where I'm going to put it or how to manage the work flow. First world problems, eh?

Bought a real 20A GFI with a weather cover to replace the anemic unit, but I won't use that circuit for splitting anymore. There's a second GFI on it.

This discussion did not go where I first expected but has been truly interesting and helpful.

 

[Soundchasm]

To summarize, 150' of extension cord is the minimum for my work situation.

175' would "probably" get me everywhere I need to go.

200' would be freedom to work anywhere.

Surely the least voltage drop would be two 100' lines. The plugs have to add some resistance, I suppose.
I suspect I'm down to worrying about nothing, but if I'm going all 10/3, I can use different lengths to get to the second 100'.

I can get 100' one piece.
I can get 175' and 25'.
I can get two 50's.

Probably no difference? Thanks.

Just for fun, found a voltage drop calculator. Drop seems to be linear, so ball-parking it -
For 50'
10/3 - 1.25%
12/3 - 2%
14/3 - 3%
16/3 - 5%

For 200'
10/3 - 5%
12/3 - 8%
14/3 - 12%
16/3 - 20%!!

https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html

 

[jetsam]

OK, here's a bit of data. Ran the second day on 150' of 12/3. No GFI. This time I took the Kill-A-Watt down to measure (not that I understand).

Voltage was 120-121 at the house outlet. It was 120 at the splitter (150' 12/3). So I decided to read amperage on reasonable splitting all the way up to stalling out.

Reasonable splitting was 6-9 amps for a second or two when the round cracked in half.
Tough splitting (several tries, repositioning, prayer, profanity) would flash 15A for a second.
Stalling out would flash 20 for a second.

Checked out the voltage during splitting.
Reasonable to tough splitting would drop the voltage to 114V
Stalling out dropped the voltage to 109.



OK, I did some reading and discovered low voltage increases amps which increases heat. So definite possibility of shortened motor life. Did not know that. Thanks.
https://www.ecmweb.com/design/highs-and-lows-motor-voltage

I bit the bullet and bought 100' of 10/3. So the next working configuration will be 100' of 10/3 connected to 50' or 100' of 12/3. I'll take the Kill-A-Watt with me for more observations. By next year, I'll be all 10/3 for the job.

I've got 2-3 cords left of splitting to do for 19/20. AND, a lady I spoke with last year just dropped a nice oak for me. I'm at the point where I don't know where I'm going to put it or how to manage the work flow. First world problems, eh?

Bought a real 20A GFI with a weather cover to replace the anemic unit, but I won't use that circuit for splitting anymore. There's a second GFI on it.

This discussion did not go where I first expected but has been truly interesting and helpful.

To have a full run of 10/3, you'd also need to run 10/3 from the panel to a new outlet outside.

The less total cords you're plugging together the less resistance you have at the plugs, especially as they age.

Honestly if you're looking at spending $180 on extension cords and $50 on 10/3 romex, and then maybe replacing the electric splitter when it dies of being run like a gas splitter.... I'd look at buying a gas splitter.