Englander 25-PVCD: Need help please

[wjogert]

Hand-me-down 2001 Englander 25-PVCD/55, given to us with a ton of TSC white bag pellets.
I did the burner plate mod, leaf blower vac, and changed it to 4-4-1 mode D.

TSC pellets burned "OK". Approx. 18-20 hours per bag. The ash was fluffy, light gray. Burn pot fills with ash in approx. 6-8 hours, reducing the burn area to a couple of inches. Side ash chambers are half full after 3 bags. Glass is sooted in 3-6 hours, depending on burn rate (manual between 3 and 6). Turned the stove to 8 one day to clear the hopper and noticed that the glass started to clear.

Installed thermostat. Pellet usage increased to approx. 14-16 hours per bag, regardless of heat setting at 5, 6, 7, or 8.

I've tried multiple brands of premium pellets, hard and soft.
Stove Chow, Fireside Ultra, Maine Pellet, LaCrete, N.E. Pellet, Okanagan, Super Spruce.
Almost every brand burns hotter than TSC in this stove, but most of them also burn dirtier (black, heavy ash). The ton of TSC lasted almost 2 months because I spent every weekend testing bags of different brands. Now, I'm buying TSC per bag until I determine what I pellet to have delivered... and have concluded that the current TSC pellets also burn dirtier than my original palate.

The BIGGEST ISSUE is that I cannot run the stove on the thermostat now. The stove will not sustain "idle" mode 1. During idle, the pellets drop into the burn pot and just smother the pile of embers. It either extinguishes completely, or it smolders for a few minutes then lights dirty. I've increased and decreased the LFF and LAF settings. It still goes out. If the flame survives until thermostat on, the first load of "heat on" pellets also smothers the embers. I'm now running with the thermostat bypassed in constant heat setting 3.

I feel like the stove drops too many pellets at too long of an interval. Meaning the flame dies, the embers almost extinguish, then about 1/2 a handful of pellets drop all at once and create a 10-12" flame, repeat. That's at 4-4-1. Only Super Spruce could sustain 3-4-1, still not consistently though. I would expect idle mode to drop a few pellets at a consistent rate, maintaining a steady small flame... ??? BTW, the lower auger spins 1.5 RPM.

I desperately need help to get this stove running proper.

 

[wjogert]

Pellet Feed at idle (mode 1). 4-4-1 mode D.

 

[wjogert]

Flame after pellet feed in idle mode 1 (4-4-1 mode D)

 

[Smokinbubba]

Lower auger speed means nothing per Mike at ESW. The top auger speed is the only one that matters and should be around 1rpm. The Englanders doflare up then down, then up and down. The trick is to set the lff to keep a 1" flame pre "dump" to 3" post dump when the stat is not calling for heat.(idle) Once you get this result its time to adjust the air up till you get fine ash. Going to watch your videos now to see if there is anything to add.

 

[Smokinbubba]

Ok, your videos look normal but a little high post dump. Did you use magnets to block off the air holes under the burn plate? Makes a big difference.
Also, did u remove the jumper paperclip thing where the stat goes?

 

[wjogert]

Ok, your videos look normal but a little high post dump. Did you use magnets to block off the air holes under the burn plate? Makes a big difference.
Also, did u remove the jumper paperclip thing where the stat goes?

Air holes under burn plate are blocked with stainless hole plugs (recommended by a thread in this forum)

 

[Smokinbubba]

Out of all pellets i have tried, the tsc wht bags burned the dirtiest. But stil managable. Did the po ever replace the top auger motor? My refab stove from amfm came with an incorrect 2rpm top motor and gave me lots of trouble until I swapped it with a 1rpm ga unit. You can empty the hopper, swap the upper and lower motor wires , mark the top auger with a sharpie and start. Time it should be close to 1rpm. Easy to rule out.

 

[wjogert]

BTW, the flame video was how the stove ran previously in idle. The first video is what it does currently... flame dies out, pellets drop and smother the embers.

 

[Smokinbubba]

Seems that your pellets take a super long time to ignite. Mine kick off as soon as they touch the coals.

 

[wjogert]

Upper auger is 40 seconds / rotation... 1.5 RPM

 

[wjogert]

Seems that your pellets take a super long time to ignite. Mine kick off as soon as they touch the coals.

Yeah, and I want to blame the pellets... but it is the same with N.E. Pellet (hardwood) and the Okanagan (softwood). Super Spruce seeemd to light up quicker. All the other brands were tested before I went thermostat, so I don't know how they would have burned at idle.

 

[Smokinbubba]

Upper auger is 40 seconds / rotation... 1.5 RPM

Thats a little fast but not out of line. 2rpm gives you lots of trouble. lots.

 

[Smokinbubba]

Also, burning on low is going to be somewhat dirty. I would hook up the stat and try on 141. If you haven't already. Slows the pellet delivery so maybe it wont smother the fire. Just a thought. Ive run mine on a stat from close to the beginning and it makes my house happy.

 

[wjogert]

The trick is to set the lff to keep a 1" flame pre "dump" to 3" post dump when the stat is not calling for heat.(idle)

So, heat setting 3 runs like that... a 1" flame just before the next dump. Although it still frequently loses flame before the next dump, but manages to light after a short smolder. There is no setting on this stove that only has a 3" flame after dump.

I would hook up the stat and try on 141. If you haven't already. Slows the pellet delivery so maybe it wont smother the fire.

I thought the same, and LFF of 2 or 1 seemed like a reasonable dump rate. But it wouldn't sustain itself. Extinguished in less than 5 minutes.

I finally have it running without dying... but LFF is at 5, and it's burning like it's on heat setting 3 or 4. But, it's no different than overriding the thermostat like I did last night. It just seems like this stove needs to be HOT to keep running.

 

[Smokinbubba]

Every ESW stove is different. Between Dad and i, we have 3 pdv's and they are all set different. Even using the same pellet. Maybe Ssyko can chime in here. He is the expert on these stoves.

 

[ericofmaine]

I'd go back and say that the RPM's of both auger motors matter. Think about it, if the bottom motor is running faster, its pushing out pellets at a faster rate than the control board is expecting. The first thing I would try, once you've confirmed that both motors are indeed running at 1.5 RPM is to replace them with 1 RPM motors. Your control board is programmed to with its settings at 1 RPM and by running with faster motors, your chasing your tail.

Eric

 

[Smokinbubba]

I'd go back and say that the RPM's of both auger motors matter. Think about it, if the bottom motor is running faster, its pushing out pellets at a faster rate than the control board is expecting. The first thing I would try, once you've confirmed that both motors are indeed running at 1.5 RPM is to replace them with 1 RPM motors. Your control board is programmed to with its settings at 1 RPM and by running with faster motors, your chasing your tail.

Eric

I thought the same thing but have tested 1 rpm and 2 rpm in the lower auger and saw zero difference. I actually have a 1rpm in top and 2 rpm in bottom right now. I even called and talked to Mike Holten at ESW and he stated the lower only delivers the pellets that the top auger dispenses. Since the top auger is on then off,on then off, it creates a dump/no dump cycle. If it simply changed the auger speed it would be more consistent in burn. It is what it is.
My research has found that a 1.25rpm top auger motor would be about perfect for me. 2rpm dumps WAY too many pellets and you can never turn it down enough. 1rpm you have to turn it up a little more than I would like, but I can live with it.

 

[Ssyko]

The way you get even (as even as englanders can) burn, The augers need to be matched in rpm. I know “Mike says” but if the upper is timed to the flutes of the auger shaft and it feeds the lower auger slower than the lower dumps the burn load there will be a 1/2 -3/4 turn in the lower auger flute empty thus the up and down flame of burn out.

Upper auger is 40 seconds / rotation... 1.5 RPM

correct me if im wrong but that is telling me that in 60 seconds it will have turned 2 complete revolutions. I agree with Eric, if they designed them for 1rpm they should have 1 rpm. Of course they are going to say its ok because it costs them money to replace incorrect motors.

also you should be scraping the ash out of the pot at least 2 times a day

 

[wjogert]

I have counted revolution on upper and lower augers. Both turn one revolution in 40 seconds, 1.5 revolution in 60 seconds. I have watched the pellets dump for hours... at idle (thermostat off) the pellets feed moderate for several minutes, then a sudden LARGE DUMP occurs (roughly 1/2 - 3/4 of a handful). Some pellets will smolder for a moment, then ignite a huge flame... other pellets just smother the embers and never light.

Tonight I made a restrictor plate for the hopper. I thought if I could maintain the auger speed , but reduce the pellets, it might help. It doesn't seem to have made any difference.

These past couple of days at 45F outside, the house has been 80 inside because of the pellet rate required to keep the stove actually lit.

 

[Ssyko]

What is the average length of the pellets your burning?

These past couple of days at 45F outside, the house has been 80 inside because of the pellet rate required to keep the stove actually lit.

common with all pellet stoves that do not have an on/off setting.

 

[Smokinbubba]

When my stove had a 2rpm upper motor, IMy house was 80degf too. When I replaced with a 1rpm, I am able to maintain 70deg when 50deg outside.
Pellet length makes a HUGE difference.

 

[wjogert]

The TSC pellets seem to range 1/4" to 1/2" with LOTS of 1/8" to 3/8" crumbs. I know these pellets must feed more per auger turn. Yet, these have been the "cleanest" and most reliable pellet in the under $6 range... until now.

N.E. Wood Pellet was a very consistent 3/4" for the bags that I initially tested. They burned decent, so I bought 8 more bags to hold me over until delivery of a ton. Now, they just won't stay lit. I realized last night that the pellet size is much smaller than before, with lots of pieces... so obviously something changed between batches. So glad I didn't order the ton.

I had tried Stove Chow. They burned hot as hell but heavy black ash that filled the stove quickly. Last night, I went to Home Depot and bought a few more bags. I mixed the Stove Chow 50/50 with the N.E pellets and now they'll actually burn. The Stove Chow pellets hit the embers and light up quick, which then lights the N.E. pellets after 10-20 seconds. PIA, but it ran on 3-3-1 overnight. It eventually still smothered itself... I'm guessing it got a dump that didn't have a good mix ratio.

Okanagan pellets that I tested wouldn't stay lit in idle mode either, but I just burned them up on a single-digits weekend.

I tried Super Spruce a couple weeks ago and was amazed at how much less ash there was than any other pellet I tested. But, they aren't available by the ton in my area, this late in the season. I just learned that Douglas Fir is back in stock by the ton. But, I haven't tested them yet and they're expensive ($8.14 / bag delivered).

LaCrete burned very much like Stove Chow... HOT, black, heavy. But at least they burned. Probably gonna end up with a ton of LaCrete and suffer having to vacuum ash twice a day.

Maybe I just expect too much of this old stove? I don't think so. There are too many of them running reliably, and the new model has barely changed. I think mine has something wrong that once I resolve will make my pellet stove experience significantly better.

 

[Ssyko]

Ok lets see if we can dial you in a bit better. The pellet size sounds fine. does your plate look like the one in the pic? What holes in the burn plate have you plugged. Do you know if the combustion blower has been replaced? Is the controller original?

 

[Smokinbubba]

My stove burns so well, I decided to not modify the burn plate at all. I'm sure when you figure it out, you will love your stove. Sometimes it just takes some advanced tinkering to get them right.

 

[wjogert]

Burn plate was modified per that exact image. I don't weld, so I tapped the yellow holes and filled with button head bolts. The large semi circles are also reduced to prevent the pellets that kept falling through.

The combustion blower is a Fasco, don't know if it's original or replacement.
Controller was replaced. It is in MODE D.

Interestingly, my wife mentioned that when I opened the hopper lid earlier, the flame went lazy. This would suggest there are no leaks when everything is closed (?). But I feel like that also means that pulling air through 30# of pellets and an auger chute is easier than through the OAK? I mean the air flow will follow the path of least resistance...