EPA 2020 rule 2.0 emissions

Newburnerwisconsin

Feeling the Heat
Jul 8, 2015
479
wisconsin
Does anyone know what will happen stove makers that do not get their products to meet this new EPA standard? Will they go out of business? Will they have time to be grandfathered in? Thanks everyone.
 

MisterFixIT

Member
Mar 10, 2016
61
Western Great Basin, USA
I am wondering the ... exact ... same ... thing.

I think the 2020 rules go too far because they (practically) ban non-cat stove designs with the durable stainless secondary combustion packages like the Pacific Energy series. And even if PE does a redesign to hit the new rules what will the performance and other issues be like once the air flow has been restricted yet again???

Prediction: No more non-cat unless they have those crappy corroding combusters in them like the Harman TL300. 489$ for a TL300 combustion package replacement at a1stoves dot com???

Just buy a catalytic instead and replace the cat every X number of years! Cat stoves are great in the shoulder season if that is your cup of tea.

Economic reality will probably hit and I will I'm probably buy a back up PE Classic and stash it. Maybe I should buy a dozen and horde them as collector items. Hmmmmmm.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
22,130
central pa
I think the 2020 rules go too far because they (practically) ban non-cat stove designs with the durable stainless secondary combustion packages like the Pacific Energy series. And even if PE does a redesign to hit the new rules what will the performance and other issues be like once the air flow has been restricted yet again???
With every set of regs that come up everyone freaks out but the stove manufacturers just keep going and the stoves get better and better. I am sure that will happen again
 

lsucet

Minister of Fire
May 14, 2015
1,634
San Ysidro, New Mexico
Just buy a catalytic instead and replace the cat every X number of years! Cat stoves are great in the shoulder season if that is your cup of tea.

I believe this statement is completely wrong. look into people in Alaska and Canada plus other parts that temp drop -50 and -60s and they use cat stoves. they can comeback from work to a warm house after 8-10 hrs. that is hard to get with secondary burn stoves on those climates. Not many of them that can handle that type of weather cause of the nature of the technology. But i think manufacturers of tube stoves will do something about it to meet new rules of government will create an standard like is being done for long time. The cat stoves can be run on high like tube if you need or low if you need, giving you a large range of control depending on demand needed.

I hope this help.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,210
South Puget Sound, WA
Heating in a very cold climate is all about preventing heat loss. Then a steady state heater like a BK can keep up with the cold. There are differing opinions on how to heat with wood up there. Not everyone uses a cat stove. This fellow unfortunately got the bum's rush, but has an alternate pov.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/buyers-remorse-before-i-buy-blaze-king.85372/#post-1104650

Back on topic, what we can expect by 2020 is innovation and a refining of design. Some stove companies may drop out, but I don't expect many to. And there may be new companies that take their places.
 

lsucet

Minister of Fire
May 14, 2015
1,634
San Ysidro, New Mexico
Heating in a very cold climate is all about preventing heat loss. Then a steady state heater like a BK can keep up with the cold. There are differing opinions on how to heat with wood up there. Not everyone uses a cat stove. This fellow unfortunately got the bum's rush, but has an alternate pov.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/buyers-remorse-before-i-buy-blaze-king.85372/#post-1104650

Back on topic, what we can expect by 2020 is innovation and a refining of design. Some stove companies may drop out, but I don't expect many to. And there may be new companies that take their places.
Begreen sorry if i make it sound like in those climates people only use cat stove. of course there is other stoves with different technologies. but including the link you posted, #13 sound to me like marketing and advertising more than real life experience. for me is a waste of my time read something like that. that is just somebody promoting sales. . All what i was trying to say is that his statement about cat stoves are just for shoulder seasons is wrong.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,210
South Puget Sound, WA
All what i was trying to say is that his statement about cat stoves are just for shoulder seasons is wrong.
Agreed. No doubt about that. There are lots of folks that have been heating 24/7 all winter long with cats in VC, BK, Woodstock, Buck, High Valley stoves for years.
 
Last edited:

MisterFixIT

Member
Mar 10, 2016
61
Western Great Basin, USA
> All what i was trying to say is that his statement about cat stoves are just for shoulder seasons is wrong.
> Cat stoves are great in the shoulder season if that is your cup of tea.

I never said they were "just for the shoulder season".

I said they are "great in the shoulder season".

To clarify I was making the point that cat stoves are better than non-cat in the shoulder season because they can smoulder-burn for longer periods of time AND do that efficiently, unlike a non-cat stove. If that is important to you then that is something to consider. Both types of tech have + and - points.

Its like a poked a stick in the hornets nest or sumthin?

Making another Topic (EPA2020) relevant point. I'm suspecting that the people that like cat stoves don't really care about EPA2020. (BTW: Cat stoves are great! I was almost gonna get a BK). Those that prefer non-cat stoves are hoping that the stove makers can *hit* the new numbers.

I hope they do as well. I really do. I just wonder at what point do they hit the limit of physics.
 

MisterFixIT

Member
Mar 10, 2016
61
Western Great Basin, USA
>Does anyone know what will happen stove makers that do not get their products to meet this new EPA standard? Will they go out of business?

I think they will not be able to sell their product in the USA but may be able to export them to other countries. Going out of business relies on a lot of factors. Most of the good ones will try to:

1) make design changes to the non-cat stoves so they are EPA2020 compliant. What effects this will have on performance (easy to light, air flow, max BTU, durability of the combuster etc, etc) remain to be seen.

2) switch over to catalytic designs

3) incorporate cats into their non-cat design (aka. create new hybrid technology stoves)

> Will they have time to be grandfathered in? Thanks everyone.

3 years to go for new installs .... unless the law gets changed. Maybe it will get repealed... who knows. Existing installs are typically grandfathered in and not required to be ripped out, unless someone has some interesting stories to share about stove confiscation or ... you can't sell a house with a non-compliant stove.
 

lsucet

Minister of Fire
May 14, 2015
1,634
San Ysidro, New Mexico
> All what i was trying to say is that his statement about cat stoves are just for shoulder seasons is wrong.
> Cat stoves are great in the shoulder season if that is your cup of tea.

I never said they were "just for the shoulder season".

I said they are "great in the shoulder season".
lol lol. ok. fair enough lol.
 

MisterFixIT

Member
Mar 10, 2016
61
Western Great Basin, USA
Surprisingly ... the Cat vs Non-Cat issue is very relevant to this EPA2020 topic.

There are Cat lovers that think everyone should own a Cat. So in their minds ... EPA2020 is a fantastic idea .... "well sunshine, you are just gonna have to suck it up and buy yerself a Cat stove".

Then there are non-Cat lovers that love their non-Cat and are like ... "Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo, dag nabbit there goes that EPA over reach again. Martha! Where did I put my welder? I iz gonna make me self a barrel stove"

I got my popcorn. I'm ready for the show.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
84,210
South Puget Sound, WA
Some non-cat stoves already hit the 2020 numbers like the Quad 3100,4300, 5700 and Explorer series and the Adventure II. And the Harman TL300 an Oakleaf. Or many of the new Hearthstone stoves. Looks like the Avalon Rainier/Lopi Endeavor also qualify. It's not impossible. I'm just hoping that the changes required to the stoves that currently are slightly above the 2020 emissions goals don't alter the nice parts of running the current stoves.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I am wondering the ... exact ... same ... thing.

I think the 2020 rules go too far because they (practically) ban non-cat stove designs with the durable stainless secondary combustion packages like the Pacific Energy series. And even if PE does a redesign to hit the new rules what will the performance and other issues be like once the air flow has been restricted yet again???

Prediction: No more non-cat unless they have those crappy corroding combusters in them like the Harman TL300. 489$ for a TL300 combustion package replacement at a1stoves dot com???

Just buy a catalytic instead and replace the cat every X number of years! Cat stoves are great in the shoulder season if that is your cup of tea.

Economic reality will probably hit and I will I'm probably buy a back up PE Classic and stash it. Maybe I should buy a dozen and horde them as collector items. Hmmmmmm.
Please check the EPA wood stove list. There are nearly twice as many secondary combustion units that meet the 2020 standards than catalyst equipped. I think you will find Quad and others have figured out.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I believe this statement is completely wrong. look into people in Alaska and Canada plus other parts that temp drop -50 and -60s and they use cat stoves. they can comeback from work to a warm house after 8-10 hrs. that is hard to get with secondary burn stoves on those climates. Not many of them that can handle that type of weather cause of the nature of the technology. But i think manufacturers of tube stoves will do something about it to meet new rules of government will create an standard like is being done for long time. The cat stoves can be run on high like tube if you need or low if you need, giving you a large range of control depending on demand needed.

I hope this help.
What is needed is to figure out how to burn cleanly while reducing the minimum burn rate. With cats active at 550F and secondary combustion needing 1176F, that higher requirement means more minimum air on low. Then stack effect takes over and while the minimum air setting is constant, the volume of air (cfm) takes over and the stoves just burn hotter than designed. You are correct in that component selection and construction design will be paramount.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
Heating in a very cold climate is all about preventing heat loss. Then a steady state heater like a BK can keep up with the cold. There are differing opinions on how to heat with wood up there. Not everyone uses a cat stove. This fellow unfortunately got the bum's rush, but has an alternate pov.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/buyers-remorse-before-i-buy-blaze-king.85372/#post-1104650

Back on topic, what we can expect by 2020 is innovation and a refining of design. Some stove companies may drop out, but I don't expect many to. And there may be new companies that take their places.
If you only knew!!
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
22,130
central pa
Please check the EPA wood stove list. There are nearly twice as many secondary combustion units that meet the 2020 standards than catalyst equipped. I think you will find Quad and others have figured out.
What do you mean? Does that mean they are not coming to take our stoves? lol
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
What do you mean? Does that mean they are not coming to take our stoves? lol
NSPS=New Source Performance Standards. Regulations put into place May 15,th of last year effect ONLY new units brought to market by manufacturers.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
22,130
central pa
NSPS=New Source Performance Standards. Regulations put into place May 15,th of last year effect ONLY new units brought to market by manufacturers.
Yes I know that.
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
5,496
Northern NH
There will probably be some nice close out sales in the year before. I believe Tarm had a great deal on gasifier last year that was no longer in compliance.

I do wonder on the Alaska situation is how much of the pollution is reflated to burning unseasoned wood. All the shows on cable show folks running with a small woodpile and when they get short going out in the woods and cut wood to burn immediately. Not sure how high tech stoves are going to run with wet wood.
 

wayne.nestor

Member
Nov 3, 2016
127
Baltimore MD
Where do I look to see if my new ( this year ) England Madison meets the 2020 epa specs? You all have me worried now. Lol

The exact model is 50-shssw01 ( sold as a Summers Heat 2000 ).

I know it's a pretty efficient model but still....

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 

Sodbuster

Minister of Fire
Sep 22, 2012
1,458
Michigan
I wouldn't sweat it too much, I have a PE Summit, that should last me as long as I want to burn wood. There is very little on the stove that can't be fixed or fabricated with a a welder and the right tools. Remember when the low flow toilets first came out, they were garbage. A few years later, and they are fine. If the new regs drive the price of stoves through the roof, which they usually do, there is always the secondary market.
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
22,130
central pa
Where do I look to see if my new ( this year ) England Madison meets the 2020 epa specs? You all have me worried now. Lol

The exact model is 50-shssw01 ( sold as a Summers Heat 2000 ).

I know it's a pretty efficient model but still....
It doesn't really matter the new regs will not effect existing installs at all.
 
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BKVP

Minister of Fire
It doesn't really matter the new regs will not effect existing installs at all.
See why I posted the comment? There are many folks that come to this site that are not the expert you and others are and therefore we should all be mindful of our posts, even if they are marked LOL.
 
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spirilis

Minister of Fire
Sep 8, 2009
935
Frederick, MD
Where do I look to see if my new ( this year ) England Madison meets the 2020 epa specs? You all have me worried now. Lol

The exact model is 50-shssw01 ( sold as a Summers Heat 2000 ).

I know it's a pretty efficient model but still....

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
Well for what it's worth - https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf

The madison is listed in that document at 2.5g/hr emissions. Per https://www.epa.gov/residential-wood-heaters/fact-sheet-summary-requirements-woodstoves-and-pellet-stoves , step 2 emissions restrictions will be "2.0 g/hr" or "2.5 g/hr using cord wood if method is approved". Not sure how the Madison was tested for its current spec but that's pretty stinkin' close enough to me (for the purpose of assuaging guilt over running what will be a "smoke dragon" by 2020's extreme standards)
 
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