EPA Changes to Stoves in 2015

[CountryLiving603]

I'm new here. I've searches through the threads for an answer and can't seem to come up with one. Forgive me if I've overlooked it.

We are wanting to buy an outdoor woodburning furnace. Currently we have an indoor BuckStove to heat 2500sq ft which doesn't do a bad job but know an outdoor one hooked into our radiators (use oil now) would give an even heat throughout. We weren't planning to buy one until Summer 2015 but recently someone told us we should get one now before the new EPA stoves come out in January because the current ones are better. What are your thoughts on this? Will the new EPA approved stoves not be as good?

Thanks

 

[Eric Johnson]

The new boilers and stoves will be cleaner burning, more efficient and probably more expensive.

Worth the extra money, IMO. You'll more than save the difference in wood over a year or two.

And, since there's a great deal of confusion among the general public--thanks mostly to paranoid antigovernment types--the only thing that's going to be illegal under the new rules is selling noncompliant boilers, stoves and furnaces. After the first of the year it will still be perfectly legal to use whatever you have for as long as it lasts. Only sales of new units will be regulated.

 

[maple1]

We weren't planning to buy one until Summer 2015 but recently someone told us we should get one now before the new EPA stoves come out in January because the current ones are better.

That would almost make a good sales pitch. Did you ask whoever told you better how, exactly?

Does it have to be outside?

(BTW, a furnace heats air, a boiler heats water - although still a bit of a misnomer since it doesn't boil it.)

 

[CountryLiving603]

Well it doesn't have to be outside but that is what appeals to me the most about them! Being the person who does all the cleaning around the house, being able to keep the whole wood mess outside seems like an awesome idea!

It was actually a county inspector that was telling my other 1/2 about the new regs. He didn't really go into detail as to why they wouldn't be as good but only mentioned you wouldn't be able to burn things like green wood in them. Not that we burn green wood but there are times the wood probably should have been seasoned more.

 

[JP11]

You can't fight physics. The reason they are changing regulations on these things is because people are burning green wood, POORLY and they cause problems smoking up the whole countryside.

If anyone tells you their magic outdoor machine can burn tires, trash wood, or the like.. RUN!

Spend a few days reading on here. Lots of info.

JP

 

[CountryLiving603]

Yes, there is a ton of info here and to be honest it's like learning another language! 1/2 the stuff I read I'm clueless as to what they are even talking about. I had no idea you could even put a wood boiler in a basement. That could be a good option for us as we live in a very windy area and I'm not sure how that would affect an outdoor boiler. But with it being in the basement that means dragging wood down there which doesn't sound appealing. I think I'm more confused now than ever! lol

 

[maple1]

If you want the boiler outside the house, you could also put an indoor boiler in an outbuilding. Think nice warm shop. That also contains enough wood (also nice & warm & dry) for the whole winter. If you wanted to do storage, you could put that in there too - or in the basement. Storage changes everything when heating water with wood.

Lots of ways to do it. Good to have choices, but makes it hard to make a decision sometimes.

OWBs waste wood, that's pretty well a given. Some more than others. Some are OK with that, if they would rather simply cut more wood as opposed to investing in something more efficient.

 

[JBainbridge]

A lot of guys will buy an indoor boiler and put it in a wood shed to keep the mess outside the house. It'll cost more to do it that way but you'll make it up over time with less labor and mess hauling wood into the house.

I would seriously think twice about buying a conventional OWB unless you want to be a wood cutting slave. The efficiency on them is somewhere in the 30% range where the newer gasification units are around 80%.

Another thing to keep in mind is the gasification boilers must have dry wood around 20% moisture content.

 

[JP11]

You're talking about a 10 to 15 thousand dollar investment for sure. With that kind of money on the line, you want to do your homework.

The only thing worse than spending that much money, is spending that much money and not having the right setup. Go slow, plan a lot. You need to plan for EVERY aspect of the wood gathering, processing, movement and ash disposal. Proper planning now will keep there from being any surprises later.

JP

 

[CountryLiving603]

So let me give you my circumstances and you tell me what you would do.

Live in southern Ohio
2 story Farm house built in 1911, approx. 2500 sq ft ; wall insulation is poor
Current back up heat is an oil boiler; radiators in every room; have lived here 1.5 years and only turned heat on 1x when we went out of town and it keeps it pretty warm
Currently main source of heat is a BuckStove on main floor but it's hard to push warm air into rooms so fans are necessary
Have room in nasty old basement to put whatever; have tons of room outside with no obstructions
Unlimited free wood
Don't like mess of wood/ash in the house along with constantly hearing the blower running on stove
Money is tight; $10K would be our max for everything

What would you go with?

 

[Eric Johnson]

The good thing about your setup is that you already have a hydronic system with radiators, an existing boiler, etc. Personally, since I'd do all the work myself, I'd go with an outdoor gasification boiler and do the minimum right off the bat to get it connected and pumping hot water into the existing boiler. That way, all your house thermostats and pumps will be able to distribute the heat without any modifications. Just pipe the hot water into the existing boiler and turn up the heat. You could probably do that for $10K. Over time, you can make upgrades as you have the resources. Also, I'd focus on cutting and stacking and drying as much firewood as possible for use in the coming years. You might have to limp through this winter with the help of the wood stove and whatever dry wood you can scrounge up, but you'll be ready to roll next fall if you have 10 or 20 cords stacked up and ready to burn.

I've learned over time that simpler is usually better. You can design something fancy that costs a lot of money, but you're probably ahead to keep it simple--at least for the time being.

In addition to the boiler, you're going to need: underground pipe (insulated PEX) and an appropriate sized circulator to get the hot water from the boiler into the house heating system. The dealer you buy the boiler from should be able to provide both--or sources for both.

It's true that conventional outdoor boilers eat wood (just ask my mom--or me, since I cut all her "free" wood). Over time, the more efficient, cleaner-burning gasification boiler will more than pay you back.

So, my advice is to buy a good outdoor gasifier adequately sized for your house, and put it as close to the house as you can to minimize the cost of the underground pipe (I think it's about $5 a foot, plus the cost of digging the trench and various fittings). Make sure your wood is stacked near the boiler and easy to access. You'll have a warm house and the time and energy to do things other than cut, split and stack wood.

 

[JBainbridge]

If it were me I'd put the money into insulating your house and use your current wood stove for a couple more years until you can afford to buy what you want.

I just changed to a windhager pellet boiler this year but before that had a conventional OWB. I used that for about 10 years but i couldn't keep up with the wood it was going through (23 cord last year).
If i hadn't decided to go with the pellet boiler and stayed with wood i would have built a wood shed big enough for a garn Jr and 10 cord of wood.

 

[Eric Johnson]

If it were me I'd put the money into insulating your house and use your current wood stove for a couple more years until you can afford to buy what you want.

I just changed to a windhager pellet boiler this year but before that had a conventional OWB. I used that for about 10 years but i couldn't keep up with the wood it was going through (23 cord last year).
If i hadn't decided to go with the pellet boiler and stayed with wood i would have built a wood shed big enough for a garn Jr and 10 cord of wood.

This is also good advice, though the problem with homes that old is they're difficult or impossible to adequately insulate without either tearing out the interior (lathe and plaster) walls, or tearing off the siding. Due to fire breaks and other construction anomalies, blowing the insulation in is hit and miss. Insulating the attic is much easier, and cheaper. I guess my thought (having owned three such homes and heated each with wood boilers) is that if it were cheap or easy to insulate them, it would have been done long ago. These houses were designed to be heated with coal, which at the time was cheap and plentiful. Today, replace coal with wood, and you should have a comfortable living environment.

The problem with a stove, as she says, is that it's difficult to distribute the heat. Since the house already has a functioning central heating system, I think it makes sense to build off of that. The question of timing, however, is certainly a valid one. Better to plan and invest wisely than rush into something half-cocked.

 

[NateB]

Are you able to do most of the install work yourself? If not get an installer to give you a price for what Eric said. I would also get a price from an insulator to improve insulation in the basement and the attic. Those 2 areas being better insulated will make a big difference. One tip to help you with the wood stove you don't blow the heat to the cold rooms you blow the cold air to the warm room, if you want to read more about that check out the wood stove forum on this site.

Also a wood boiler in the basement is not a bad idea. You could put a wood shoot from outside in to your basement and never have to carry wood through the house.

 

[JP11]

I guess if you want an outbuilding, You'd have a nice heated one with an indoor boiler and storage in there. would keep the mess out of the house.

cheaper is to put the boiler in the basement. I wouldn't be afraid of doing this, as long as you can figure ou the wood handling, and how that woods going to get dry and into the basement.

there's something to be said about being able to load the boiler in slippers and PJs

JP