EPA Deadline extension?

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
An amendment has been proposed to extend the EPA May 15th deadline to help retailers that had to close shop for the last 2 months due to coronavirus. Details are uncertain whether this means a 2-month extension or longer. Stay tuned.

 

buc74

Member
Oct 16, 2012
88
Fort Atkinson, WI
Good news for all, thanks for the info.
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
5,000
NE Ohio
If they think an extenention is warranted (I'm not convinced it is) then extend it to July 15. Done.
My opinion is that permitting sales into the fall is BS...just cut these smoke dragons off!
'course they'll all just start building "coal burners" anyways...
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
Agreed. Just extend it a couple months to compensate.
The backstory at the end of the article is interesting. Sounds like an OWB burner company did some lobbying.
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,233
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Agreed. Just extend it a couple months to compensate.
The backstory at the end of the article is interesting. Sounds like an OWB burner company did some lobbying.
Right, Mississippi politician/regulator lobbied by her constituents. Pork. The article makes that pretty clear.

Still, I never liked the law’s no sell through provision. It should be like cars where all models manufactured after a certain date have X feature. You can still buy the NOS cars until they’re gone.
 
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BKVP

Minister of Fire
Any additional sell through to July 15th will not transpire. EPA has granted the opportunity for retailers to donate their Step 1 heaters to a small list of very worthwhile charitable organizations that refurbish homes for low-income, tribal and village homes. Donations must documented by the May 15th deadline.

And to be very clear, Step 1 heaters are not smoke dragons. We should continue to reserve that term for pre-EPA certified stoves. There are many extremely clean burning stoves that are Step 1 heaters. The truth is that not all wood heaters and pellet heaters on the Step 1 list are as clean as the cleanest.

However, when EPA changed the test method requirements, stoves tested prior to March 16, 2015, (when new NSPS came out with test method revisions) many stoves below 2.0 gr/hr were relegated to the Step 1 list.
 
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brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
5,000
NE Ohio
And to be very clear, Step 1 heaters are not smoke dragons. We should continue to reserve that term for pre-EPA certified stoves.
I was referring to the OWB mentioned in the article in the OP...and some of the wood furnaces that are still out there, at least for a couple days yet...
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
I was referring to the OWB mentioned in the article in the OP...and some of the wood furnaces that are still out there, at least for a couple days yet...
So I live in NE Oregon. There is a very nice guy that has a cabinet shop where he manufacturers custom cabinets. He has a Step 2 OWB that heats the concrete slab that his shop sits upon.

All last winter there was a readily, visible plume of smoke and steam coming from the stack. Of course he has full length trees stocked up next to the boiler and sends the guys out with saws to cut up the wood and toss it into the OWB. The trees come the same arborist that I have acquired trees from in prior years.

The difference is that I have spent the money and effort to build wood sheds, cut, split and stack those trees for at least 2 years.

My point is that a simple designation as Step 2 doesn't assure any of us of a clean burning OWB, wood stove or pellet stove. There are assuredly Step 1 OWB's out there that are used properly, with proper stack length and well conditioned wood that emits vastly less than the nice guy with the cabinet shop.

But I do recognize the clarification you made.

BKVP
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
5,000
NE Ohio
So I live in NE Oregon. There is a very nice guy that has a cabinet shop where he manufacturers custom cabinets. He has a Step 2 OWB that heats the concrete slab that his shop sits upon.

All last winter there was a readily, visible plume of smoke and steam coming from the stack. Of course he has full length trees stocked up next to the boiler and sends the guys out with saws to cut up the wood and toss it into the OWB. The trees come the same arborist that I have acquired trees from in prior years.

The difference is that I have spent the money and effort to build wood sheds, cut, split and stack those trees for at least 2 years.

My point is that a simple designation as Step 2 doesn't assure any of us of a clean burning OWB, wood stove or pellet stove. There are assuredly Step 1 OWB's out there that are used properly, with proper stack length and well conditioned wood that emits vastly less than the nice guy with the cabinet shop.

But I do recognize the clarification you made.

BKVP
From what I have heard, most people that try to feed the newer "clean burn" OWB's (and any other type) "improper fuel" such as wood that is too wet, usually grow weary of fighting with it and either change their bad habits, or get rid of it...sounds like the fellow in your example is either very stubborn, just hasn't had it long enough to tire of the headache yet, or bought one that is oversized enough to still heat the place even being all gooped up inside...like they say, can't fix stupid.
My inlaws had me install a Englander NC30 in their new house a few years back...I have shown them over and over how to run it, but even with having dry wood to burn (I really loaded them up with wood so it would be dry by the time it was needed...plus he burns cabinet shop scraps too) they refuse to run it properly and the glass is always black/nasty...they keep treating it like an old school stove where you can add a piece or two every couple hours...I have given up trying to change their habits and just take solace in the fact that the stove/chimney was installed with proper CTC, and I try to stay on top of chimney cleanings...which surprisingly, haven't looked as bad as I expected...probably due to burning dry wood.

My dad and brother share heat in their houses from an old CB OWB that is centrally located, and yup, feed it wet wood, so it is a true smoke dragon often times.
It is getting long in the tooth and I recently went with my brother to check out a new unit that they are interested in...built by a small company in PA and not widely advertised at all. Since it is lambda monitored/controlled the owner/designer says that choosing to burn wet wood just means that they will burn more of it, not that it will smoke more...and I tend to believe him after using my computer controlled Kuuma Vaporfire for a few seasons now...it seems that wet wood just kills efficiency, rather than causing (much) more smoke (more steam, yes)
 
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BKVP

Minister of Fire
From what I have heard, most people that try to feed the newer "clean burn" OWB's (and any other type) "improper fuel" such as wood that is too wet, usually grow weary of fighting with it and either change their bad habits, or get rid of it...sounds like the fellow in your example is either very stubborn, just hasn't had it long enough to tire of the headache yet, or bought one that is oversized enough to still heat the place even being all gooped up inside...like they say, can't fix stupid.
My inlaws had me install a Englander NC30 in their new house a few years back...I have shown them over and over how to run it, but even with having dry wood to burn (I really loaded them up with wood so it would be dry by the time it was needed...plus he burns cabinet shop scraps too) they refuse to run it properly and the glass is always black/nasty...they keep treating it like an old school stove where you can add a piece or two every couple hours...I have given up trying to change their habits and just take solace in the fact that the stove/chimney was installed with proper CTC, and I try to stay on top of chimney cleanings...which surprisingly, haven't looked as bad as I expected...probably due to burning dry wood.

My dad and brother share heat in their houses from an old CB OWB that is centrally located, and yup, feed it wet wood, so it is a true smoke dragon often times.
It is getting long in the tooth and I recently went with my brother to check out a new unit that they are interested in...built by a small company in PA and not widely advertised at all. Since it is lambda monitored/controlled the owner/designer says that choosing to burn wet wood just means that they will burn more of it, not that it will smoke more...and I tend to believe him after using my computer controlled Kuuma Vaporfire for a few seasons now...it seems that wet wood just kills efficiency, rather than causing (much) more smoke (more steam, yes)
Perfect. You supported by point. You are the responsible wood burner, the relatives not so much. However, anyone driving by the houses where these units are burning don't say ..."Hey there is an irresponsible wood burner not properly burning their clean burning wood heater"....what they do say is ..."when are they going to make burning wood illegal!"
 
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brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
5,000
NE Ohio
Perfect. You supported by point. You are the responsible wood burner, the relatives not so much. However, anyone driving by the houses where these units are burning don't say ..."Hey there is an irresponsible wood burner not properly burning their clean burning wood heater"....what they do say is ..."when are they going to make burning wood illegal!"
Yup, I agree...the cloud rolling across the road is downright embarrassing sometimes...I have been after them for years to dump this thing...which it looked like it could possibly happen this year...until CV19...but their business has taken a hit and I really doubt that will lead to a new $18k boiler...anyways, I'll leave this thread get back to its real topic.
 

brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
5,000
NE Ohio
An amendment has been proposed to extend the EPA May 15th deadline to help retailers that had to close shop for the last 2 months due to coronavirus. Details are uncertain whether this means a 2-month extension or longer. Stay tuned.

So, anything happen with this then?
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
The article has an update as of 3 days ago. The decision has a lot channels to go through, so it looks like no change until at least fall or even later.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
A Direct Rule Making, which would have extended until July 15th. Direct Rule makings are reserved for processes that are expected to face little or no opposition. Senator Carper made it clear that was not the case.

So, EPA is proceeding with a General Rule Making, which allows for comments to be filed, ample time for EPA to review those comments and then publish a Final Rule.

As an individual that has attended hundreds of meetings since this process began in November of 2009, it is extremely unlikely industry would prevail. If they do, retailers might see 30-60 days in October-November time-frame. If not, trash cans will be very heavy with steel.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
82,681
South Puget Sound, WA
More muddle. It looks like the EPA is going into a don't ask, don't tell mode through November.
 

BKVP

Minister of Fire
EPA responded to industry they could NOT provide a Notice of Non-Enforcement. This leaves the door wide open for them to conduct RCA (Random Compliance Audits). "Low Priority" does not equal non enforcement.

Furthermore, unlike the 1988 NSPS Rule, the 2015 NSPS allows for delegation of enforcement to state and local air quality agencies. While EPA may or may not make RCA's, there is nothing that prohibits state and local officials from doing so.