EPA's Wood-Burning Stove Ban

[balsabones]

Hi all!
This is an article from Jan 19, 2014. I hope its not a repost or in the wrong place. I read the entire article and had to do some research on a claim that was made in the text. the article stated that quote,

"Most wood stoves that warm cabin and home residents from coast-to-coast can’t meet that standard. Older stoves that don’t cannot be traded in for updated types, but instead must be rendered inoperable, destroyed, or recycled as scrap metal."

After looking it up, I found this statement to be untrue. According to the EPA's on fact sheet, existing wood stoves do not have to be disassembled and sold for scrap.
http://www2.epa.gov/sites/prod…iew_fact_sheet_1.pdf

The stove I have works great, (US STOVE COMPANY MAGNOLIA), for my needs but my wife has been wanting a soapstone stove. I wonder what else the EPA can make the wood burning stove manufactures, install into a stove to make it more efficient? it seems that catalytic converters and the other devices that are in the new stoves now, are the latest technology. Is there any way to cut the particulates back to non-existent? The new regs that were imposed on NEW coal fired power plants are unachievable. The technology just isn't there yet.
I guess the person that invents a wood burning stove, that emits absolutely no smoke whatsoever, from match to emptying of the coals, could make a fortune.
I guess that's why they say, "necessity is the mother of invention".

 

[RickBlaine]

1) The link you referenced does not work.
2) I have no idea of the point you are trying to make.

 

[begreen]

This is about post 100 on the same topic. There are a lot of totally incorrect anti-EPA articles circulating the internet right now. Search on EPA in the Title only here for some threads that dispel with the myths.

Here's a starter:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-epa-regulations.121517/

 

[balsabones]

1) The link you referenced does not work.
2) I have no idea of the point you are trying to make.

The point I was trying to make or I should say, the question I was trying to ask is, if the EPA is or has imposed stricter rules on wood burning stoves, to be enacted by 2015,
what else can be done or added to new stoves to further reduce the particulates emitted? It seems that the stove manufacture's have came to a technological stopping point.

 

[begreen]

We are seeing a next generation of stoves as hybrids such as the Cape Cod, Progress Hybrid and the beta testing Ideal Steel. That will give a hint of whats coming. We also had a decathlon in November that pitted interesting ideas against each other. They are another indicator of how cleanly stoves can burn.

This is an article from Jan 19, 2014.

PS: It looks like you never posted the source article link, can you provide it?

 

[balsabones]

This is about post 100 on the same topic. There are a lot of totally incorrect anti-EPA articles circulating the internet right now. Search on EPA in the Title only here for some threads that dispel with the myths.

Here's a starter:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-epa-regulations.121517/

You are right about 100's posts on the topic.
My point or question as I replied to RickBlaine is, what else can be done to a stove to further cut emissions?

Sorry here is the link I was referring to.
http://www2.epa.gov/sites/productio...rements_for_wood_stoves_and_pellet_stoves.pdf

 

[balsabones]

We are seeing a next generation of stoves as hybrids such as the Cape Cod, Progress Hybrid and the beta testing Ideal Steel. That will give a hint of whats coming. We also had a decathlon in November that pitted interesting ideas against each other. They are another indicator of how cleanly stoves can burn.


PS: It looks like you never posted the source article link, can you provide it?

Sorry,
It was in the comment section that I found out that existing stoves were exempt and some of the commenters gave the writer He%$ for it!
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...-chilling-consequences-for-many-rural-people/

 

[imacheezhead]

What I find amusing about this is that my 30 year old stove has a variable burn rate and also uses CAT technology. None of this is really new, is it?

 

[Dakotas Dad]

Also, and I don't have the link, so you will have to do a bit of research, but there is a list,compiled by the EPA fo all the stoves that WILL meet the standard as of right now, and it's like 9 pages long. Plenty of stoves are already meeting the proposed new standard...

 

[begreen]

Unfortunately there is a strongly political side to this. Think tanks are coming out with more and more big bad govt. opinion pieces that are fear and not fact based. Fact is it's been 25 years since EPA phase 2 regs went into effect and most of us have benefited from them. No one is going to come into your house and take your stove. If the new gen are much more efficient though you just might want to upgrade.

 

[gerry100]

Wood stoves don't wear out, so if you like the one you have no one can take it from you.

If they actually make it more expensive for one to get a new stove by preventing the sale or use of the old unit they're will be less newer stoves sold.

Don't think this is about cleaner air, it's about a bigger EPA with more jobs.

 

[bholler]

Well Gerry100 I have to disagree with the statement that wood stoves don't wear out I have seen many beat wood stoves they most defiantly can wear out. And if you live in an area were there are lots of outside burners you could see the need for cleaner stoves lots of them make thick nasty smoke that in some areas just lays in a valley and it can get pretty bad. Regardless I am sure the new regs will lead to better stoves just like the old ones did.

 

[Oregon aloha]

I've worn out a few stoves in my life. Stress fractures, poor welds that separate, and warped doors.

In Oregon it's is against the law to sell a non EPA stove and if your home has a non EPA stove in it then you cannot sell your home and the stove needs to be destroyed. In the case of an non EPA insert the fireplace needs to be inspected and insert destroyed or the non EPA insert destroyed and replaced with an EPA insert.

So some of this stuff is already happening. Stay tuned.

 

[begreen]

The EPA sets the guidelines. The selling/destroying/buying policy is on the state level. My only fault with the EPA in this regard is that they are still not recognizing wood as a renewable energy resource.

 

[Oregon aloha]

Dose EPA recognize biomass? Wood is considered biomass. To be biomass doesn't it need to be renewable?

 

[blazincajun]

"The current 1988 regulation (subpart AAA) applies to affected appliances manufactured since 1988. The current emission limits would remain in effect for the heaters and model lines manufactured before the effective date of this rule until their current EPA certification expires (maximum of 5 years) or is revoked. After the certification expires or is revoked, these heaters and other new heaters would have to meet updated emission standards.

In addition to the PM emissions standards, we are proposing to continue to require the proper burn practices that already apply to the owner or operator of a wood heating appliance. That is, the current 1988 standards already include the requirement that the owner or operator must operate the heater consistent with the owner's manual and not burn improper fuels and manufacturers typically void their warranties in cases of improper operation. Numerous states have expressed their support for the continuation of these requirements. Some states and local jurisdictions have enforced similar requirements, and this proposal would allow potential delegation of enforcement authority of these NSPS requirements upon the EPA approval of state requests.

The EPA has also implemented programs that encourage good burning practices, which can have a significant impact on emissions.

We are proposing to require commercial owners (direct distribution manufacturers and retailers) to provide a moisture meter with the wood heater at the time of sale, along with the owner's manual and a copy of the warranty. We request specific comments on whether we should include more specific requirements on proper operations, such as the moisture content of the wood and visible emission limitations."

My thoughts on some parts of the Final Rule.
1. So, it does look like after the five years following the Final Rule passage, older heaters and new heaters would have to meet the updated standards. Probably enforced by the states if they so choose.

2. Still up to the owner/operator to adhere to proper burn Practices, i.e., using dry wood according to owners manual. Left up to states to enforce if they so choose. Mentioned in the proposal is that the EPA implemented programs to encourage good burning practices - This website may want to look into the possibility of grant money since this website does this quite well already.

3. Don't care too much about forcing retailers to provide a moisture meter - I may want a different type.

4. Overall more efficient stoves means less wood that I need to harvest and less smoke in areas where inversion is more of a problem.

5. They are also proposing an additional test method to include cordwood as well as the current cribwood and to include the initial five minute start up of wood stoves in their testing methods.

 

[blazincajun]

The EPA sets the guidelines. The selling/destroying/buying policy is on the state level. My only fault with the EPA in this regard is that they are still not recognizing wood as a renewable energy resource.

When we remove a live tree vs. a dead tree we probably should take some initiative to maybe get involved in planting programs in our areas or something similar. Wood is only renewable if it is renewed so we do have a responsibilty in my opinion. Anyway, young trees are carbon sequester machines and old trees are nearly neutral in that phase.

 

[gerry100]

Live and learn ( I had my Jumbo Moe for 29yrs and sold it for $500 in '08).

My thinking is the new regs will have less impact than Auto pollution rules since stoves don't die off like vehicles

 

[begreen]

When we remove a live tree vs. a dead tree we probably should take some initiative to maybe get involved in planting programs in our areas or something similar. Wood is only renewable if it is renewed so we do have a responsibilty in my opinion. Anyway, young trees are carbon sequester machines and old trees are nearly neutral in that phase.

That thought was recently countered by a study that discovered giant seqouias and redwood actually grow faster and sequester more CO2 than young trees.

 

[blazincajun]

That thought was recently countered by a study that discovered giant seqouias and redwood actually grow faster and sequester more CO2 than young trees.

Didn't know that. What about the other species? Do you have a reprint or the location to find it? Be interesting to see the experimental design of the study. Be a nice link to add.

 

[begreen]

I'm on cell phone. Send me a PM to remind me to look it up. It was within the last month.

 

[blazincajun]

That thought was recently countered by a study that discovered giant seqouias and redwood actually grow faster and sequester more CO2 than young trees.

From what I read, the study only showed that some very old redwoods have been growing more biomass in the last 100 years than at any point in their lives. It does not compare the same 100 year old redwood during the same timespan. Yes, a 100 year old redwood is a young tree. Sounds like they are going to do more research and present at a later date. The point really was that we should feel some obligation to renew our wood sources.

 

[Oregon aloha]

When we remove a live tree vs. a dead tree we probably should take some initiative to maybe get involved in planting programs in our areas or something similar.

I buy logs from a logger who harvests mostly on private land. A permit is required and additional trees beyond what was harvested need to be planted as replacement. So I think I'm covered on replenishing the resource. Yes if I was cutting trees on my own land, which I have, I have and would plant new trees as replacement. To me its just common sense. Buying wood form an add you wouldn't know where the wood came from or if it was replaced, so maybe that would be something to ask the next time you get wood. Great thought.

 

[mstoelton]

So I went and reviewed the PROPOSED new regulations.

A few key points.
1. Nobody is going to come and take your existing stove
2. The regs are proposed and subject to negotiated rulemaking
3. Many stoves already comply
4. The new rules will mimick the rules already in place in some states (Washington)
5. because the rules are proposed there is a comment period
6. Anyone can comment, including individuals, companies, trade organizations etc.
7. If there is a trade organization that is firmly resistant to the modifications they can be successful in delaying, changing or even stopping the new rules from being implemented.

A trade organization if one exists could engage the EPA and go about instituting self regulation that could keep the EPA out of the game if it had the will to do so.

 

[blazincajun]

So I went and reviewed the PROPOSED new regulations.

A few key points.
1. Nobody is going to come and take your existing stove
2. The regs are proposed and subject to negotiated rulemaking
3. Many stoves already comply
4. The new rules will mimick the rules already in place in some states (Washington)
5. because the rules are proposed there is a comment period
6. Anyone can comment, including individuals, companies, trade organizations etc.
7. If there is a trade organization that is firmly resistant to the modifications they can be successful in delaying, changing or even stopping the new rules from being implemented.

A trade organization if one exists could engage the EPA and go about instituting self regulation that could keep the EPA out of the game if it had the will to do so.

I don't think anyone will take our stoves either; however, I find this quote in the proposed regs interesting "The current emission limits would remain in effect for the heaters and model lines manufactured before the effective date of this rule until their current EPA certification expires (maximum of 5 years) or is revoked. After the certification expires or is revoked, these heaters and other new heaters would have to meet updated emission standards." Okay - so run that by me again and how's this going to happen?

They may have to rewrite that or leave it up to the states to manage it. I guess some heaters could be retrofit to meet those proposed regulations.

Not sure if Washington States regulations go down to 1.3g/h for released PM emissions for non-catalytic stoves. Not too many of those currently out there except for pellet stoves. I do look forward to more efficient wood stoves.

You are absolutley correct in that these regs are proposed and that's why it is important to comment on the proposed regs especially if someone has some great alternatives or ideas.