Espresso machine
- Thread starter Jan Pijpelink
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He said 11 PM, it is now 11:32! He needs to rethink his priorities!Boy, you guys are in to it deep...
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Spoken like a man who's had a few espressos. ;-)
Okay, things I changed:
1. My usual beans came in, so I was able to switch back to those. Yesterday's experiments were with a substitute bean from the same roaster, but not the usual bean, as I had run out.
2. I ground into a small frothing pitcher, as it was easier to get an accurate grounds weight from this. Then I'd pour into the portafilter, tap, and tamp, before loading into the machine.
3. Thoroughly rinsing portafilter with hot water between each run.
I started at 13E, where I had previously left off with this particular bean, and metered 0.56 oz. (16g) into the portafilter. After leveling (tapping techinique) and tamping, it looked like this:
![[Hearth.com] Espresso machine](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/246/246507-011bc02f3288849199f737fcddddab14.jpg?hash=bfxxTKX_QX "[Hearth.com] Espresso machine")
I pulled a 2 fl.oz. shot in 25 seconds, and weighed it at 1.265 oz., or 2.26:1 ratio. Here it is, after just a few seconds settling, but it appears to be all heart and crema, little body:
![[Hearth.com] Espresso machine](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/246/246508-5bea3dd5eeb19decf1ef8735b2673621.jpg?hash=RkdQPtAJK_ "[Hearth.com] Espresso machine")
Ironically, if I had stopped at 22 seconds, as I had been doing yesterday, it would have been a perfect 2:1 at 1.10 oz.
After the shot, my puck looked like this:
![[Hearth.com] Espresso machine](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/246/246509-659d1f725c64fa8f4eeb9a75d63b9790.jpg?hash=U574dNLv18 "[Hearth.com] Espresso machine")
I pulled four more shots, and although I find liquid volume measure (fl.oz.) to be horribly inaccurate, they were all hitting 2:1 between 21.5 seconds and 22.6 seconds.
Successes:
1. I am finally getting consistency.
2. My grinder is running at 13E, where it's not throwing the mess I showed previously happening in the 14's.
3. I can hit perfect 2:1's by weight, at an ideal 22 seconds.
Remaining issues:
1. I don't think my shots always look that fantastic. The one in the photo above may be the poorest of those I pulled today, but I didn't think to get photos of the others. My timing, between loading the filled portafilter into the machine, logging weights and various other data, and making sure everything was clean and dry for every run, may mean I was baking the puck for a few minutes before pulling the shot. Probably not a great scenario, and maybe the entire issue.
2. Determining the actual ideal fill for my portafilter basket. I just went .56 oz. (16g), because I've seen others (youtube) using this baseline. I need to learn the best method for finding the ideal fill.
Well, I am glad you finally replied, you are over an hour late!
It looks better. Having a wet puck seems not to be an issue as I have read on several forums. I have wet pucks too every now and then.
Glad to see you indicate the metric system, finally.
Have you tried the weighing of the basket empty and filled without the portafilter?
I have 1 (I think) issue left; still working on the amount of coffee to grind in the naked portafilter to get a decent shot in about 24 seconds. It is still going too fast. It is either the amount of coffee or my tamp pressure. These may be 2 issues instead of 1.
Question to you is: having all these experiments done, how is the taste and mouthfeel? That's all that counts.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Puck isn’t wet, just damp. It came out whole.
If your shot is too fast, it’s usually a grind issue, too coarse. Why do you think it’s volume or tamp pressure?
There are advocates out there for just always tamping as hard as you can, for best consistency. The reasoning is that it’s impossible to get consistent tamp pressure at anything less than this, so you might as well tamp hard and grind to suit.
I do something like this, I tamp as hard as I can at an arm’s length away from me, so I’m not putting my body weight on it. Probably close enough to the ideal 30 lb, but consistency is more important than pressure, just adjust your grind coarseness to hit your shot time at your tamp pressure.
Taste? Mouthfeel? Seems good, but I need some time to decide that. I was doing all of these experiments at night, so I wasn’t partaking much. I’m also maybe slower than most to develop an opinion on a beverage, at least half thanks to my half burned out sense of smell. Too many years of solvents and paints, working on hot rods and racing boats.
My goodness, the lack of puck pressure accuracy is alarming. You need more hardware to get this dialed in exactly. Add a PuqPress from the Netherlands.
Tut tut, think of the bragging rights you will have. Or make your own.
https://makezine.com/projects/hydraulic-espresso-tamper/
https://makezine.com/projects/hydraulic-espresso-tamper/
I don't need bragging rights, I have no friends.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Hmm...somehow i fell off this thread. No interest in PuqPress, but I dig the one the guy made himself. Sorry, that kind of stuff is just fun for the engineer in me.
I forgot to follow up on the issue I was having with dialing in consistent shot times. It was my basket, the capacity was less than I had realized. I was grinding 16 grams into it, as it’s labeled as a double-shot basket, and that was giving me loose grind just below the lip. However, after pressed the puck was apparently too tall and when I installed the portafilter it was bottoming out on the spray head. I didn’t realize this until one time when I removed the portafilter before running a shot, and I could see the impression of the screw head in the top of my puck. It turns out, my basket can only hold about 13 grams of the beans I’m running (La Colombe Nizza).
For all the videos out there on dialing in shots, I’ve never seen one that talks about determining the capacity of your basket. I just did it by grinding less and less (changing grind time on Sette), until I could install an remove the basket without seeing an impression of the spray head on the puck, and then I went maybe two tenths of a second below that. In any case, now I’m getting consistent shots.
I forgot to follow up on the issue I was having with dialing in consistent shot times. It was my basket, the capacity was less than I had realized. I was grinding 16 grams into it, as it’s labeled as a double-shot basket, and that was giving me loose grind just below the lip. However, after pressed the puck was apparently too tall and when I installed the portafilter it was bottoming out on the spray head. I didn’t realize this until one time when I removed the portafilter before running a shot, and I could see the impression of the screw head in the top of my puck. It turns out, my basket can only hold about 13 grams of the beans I’m running (La Colombe Nizza).
For all the videos out there on dialing in shots, I’ve never seen one that talks about determining the capacity of your basket. I just did it by grinding less and less (changing grind time on Sette), until I could install an remove the basket without seeing an impression of the spray head on the puck, and then I went maybe two tenths of a second below that. In any case, now I’m getting consistent shots.
AlbergSteve
Minister of Fire
I know for the Silvia there is a (broken link removed to http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/358287) to eliminate the screw head in the puck, might be able to do the same on yours. I'm using a 17g basket as well.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Gaggia already has flush screw. My point was that the entire puck was mashed up on the spray head, with 17g in the basket. Sorry for the confusion.
I would guess the eight capacity of the basket varies with density if the beans, for different beans and roasts. I hadn’t given it enough thought before, and had just been filling to the 17g I saw people using online.
AlbergSteve
Minister of Fire
Soooo, if you guys are still hanging out here, I've been having some issues with my Rocky grinder lately. I haven't been able to grind quite fine enough and haven't been cleaning the grinder properly(read=AT ALL). This is what I discovered...
![[Hearth.com] Espresso machine](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/254/254879-226dfb846bd748fd87df3dc30c98748a.jpg?hash=k13wyHg8Ix "[Hearth.com] Espresso machine")
It looks like an Italian sculpture!
![[Hearth.com] Espresso machine](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/254/254878-52a676ef1b4896dd4224709cf18a68bf.jpg?hash=5pU76DhJgb "[Hearth.com] Espresso machine")
...and this is what came out of there.
![[Hearth.com] Espresso machine](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/254/254877-73702862cb079f1f7f4c3e5722c17599.jpg?hash=aD1mIbyuSV "[Hearth.com] Espresso machine")
![[Hearth.com] Espresso machine](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/254/254880-dd4a2c124e10f645f1e801369571e08a.jpg?hash=pVwDm36jo5 "[Hearth.com] Espresso machine")
Looks like the cutting edges are off the burrs as well. I've ordered a new set and I'm treating myself to a naked portafilter.
Even after cleaning everything up, still can't get a fine grind.
It looks like an Italian sculpture!
...and this is what came out of there.
Looks like the cutting edges are off the burrs as well. I've ordered a new set and I'm treating myself to a naked portafilter.
Even after cleaning everything up, still can't get a fine grind.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Unfortunately, I’m not much help with the grinder calibration. I don‘t own a Rocky, and both of my burr grinders are still new enough that I haven’t had to do any maintenance on either of them. But I do know they need to be recalibrated after changing burrs, so do you think it could be as simple as that? I just did a quick YouTube search on Rocky grinder calibration, and this was the first hit:
AlbergSteve
Minister of Fire
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Your earlier post wasn’t quite clear, when you said, “Even after cleaning everything up, still can't get a fine grind.” Are the new burrs installed, or are you still waiting to receive them?
AlbergSteve
Minister of Fire
Still waiting, they'll be here next week. Took it apart again last night and noticed that the bottom burr runs a bit eccentric when spinning. Unfortunately Rancilio doesn't index the burr to the carrier and with the bit of slop around the screw holes it's difficult to center it perfectly. May try using flat head screws instead of pan heads, using the taper of the head to center the burr, assuming the PCD is concentric to the motor shaft!
Not sure there's funding from my CFO for a grinder upgrade...
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Well, if it does come to that, Jan and I are both using the newer Baratxa Sette models with success. I hate the stupid shape of them more than he does, I think, but I can’t argue with the performance.
Easy Livin’ 3000
Minister of Fire
After scanning through this whole thread, I now believe you.
I thought you were just flexing that sardonic Dutch sense of humor when you've said this multiple times before.
I do think you have one now. And he's just across the Delaware!
You guys would be a hoot at a party.
And in all fairness, i suppose I'm in the same boat, having sufficient time and patience to even scan through all this.
I guess I just wish you hadn't dragged Alberg into this...
AlbergSteve
Minister of Fire
Portafilter and burrs came today. The old burrs were the problem, new ones are able to grind finer than flour and choked the grinder! Roasted 1/2 pound of fresh coffee this afternoon and used most of it trying to dial my shots in. It needs work...will have to continue experimenting tomorrow, can't drink any more coffee tonight.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
AlbergSteve
Minister of Fire
Ashful
Minister of Fire
There were a few points of confusion in there that I think are a sign that the author isn’t a barista, but I get the underlying concept. Maybe I’m accidentally ahead of my time, but I’m not grinding 20g anyway. I am right around 0.5 oz = 14.2 grams, if I recall. It was more about getting one American nickel’s gap between my spray head and my puck, than some magical amount of grounds. Change the filter basket or the beans or the roast, and that number has to change. All that’s important to me is that I’m getting a 2:1 extraction by weight (eg 1.0 oz espresso from 0.5 oz grinds) in 20 - 25 seconds, with an appropriate spray head gap. If you can manage that with quality beans on a machine with reasonable temperature control and pressure, you’re going to have a shot good enough for me.Just when I got my shots dialed in, this comes along...
I think the author of this article(or their sources) are backing into the same result, with a lot of unnecessary complexity.
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