Fan really necessary for insert?

[Visca]

Hi again! I last posted in July asking about pellet stoves. Got some good insight here for which I am very grateful and we are now planning to put a Nordica Gaia woodburning stove with oven in a corner in the kitchen and something else in the living room. The something else is what I wanted to ask you all about.
We're completely renovating a very old farmhouse with about 150 sq m, around 60 sqm ground floor (eat-in kitchen, bath, living room), 60 sq m 2nd floor (3 bedrooms and bath), and a study on the third floor under the rafters of around 25 sqm. Climate can get cold but seldom freezes. However the family can't bear being cold indoors.
The original idea was to put an insert into a fireplace in the living room, and pipe heat up to the bedrooms and study (we'll also have some electric radiators). Then we fell in love with the idea of having a Nordica oven in the kitchen (that was entirely the fault of hearth.com users who recommended La Nordica!) The Nordica guy came and recommended the Inserto 100 with a fan for the living room. However the quote was really over budget, considering we're also putting in the Gaia stove. Almost 800 euros was due to the fan parts and fan installation.
A friend of ours has a 2 story house with wood burning insert and no fan. They never use their electric radiators anymore and they are pretty toasty with the insert alone. This is the only point of reference I have. However the Nordica installer, who seemed like a super guy and very knowledgeable, says that our upstairs will not get much heat without a fan.
Another option would be to put in a freestanding stove like the Isotta model. La Nordica says that it gives off more heat, from all sides, rather than the insert which just projects heat from the front, but again he says we would not get much heat upstairs.
Please, experts at hearth.com, do you think a fan in a woodburning stove make such a difference? And is a free standing stove better than a fan-less insert?
Gràcies!

 

[kborndale]

A wood stove does not need a fan. A wood insert works better with a fan, some inerts work alright without one but most need one.

 

[moresnow]

Fans on a freestander make a heck of a difference on heat dispersion. Multiplied effect with a insert that is mostly enclosed.
My opinion here with sub zero weather. Post a few pics.
Catalonia? I better do the gooooooogle on that one

 

[BigJ273]

Yes. Fan.

 

[Visca]

Thanks for replies! The consensus seems to be insert is far better with a fan.
Any insights on how a wood stove (no fan) compares to a wood insert with a fan? Keeping in mind we would want to heat the floors above?

The house is still a construction zone inside, but for those of you curious about Catalonia, here's a photo of our beautiful countryside behind the house.

 

[kborndale]

A wood stove is s better heater than an insert. With or without a fan.

 

[Highbeam]

Is your insert one of those cool European ones that heats water as well as air? Is that how you could “pipe” the heat upstairs?

 

[Visca]

Is your insert one of those cool European ones that heats water as well as air? Is that how you could “pipe” the heat upstairs?

Actually no, we're not doing a hot water heater stove though they are cool. We are just planning to run a metal pipe straight up from either the insert or the stove (which will be in a corner) through the ceiling to the floors above. Don't know the technical term, sorry. Maybe with like vents in it for the air to come out.

 

[begreen]

We could better advise with some floor plan sketches so that we can better see heat flow options and obstacles.

 

[RSNovi]

Our flush insert really needed the fan to produce acceptable heat.

 

[Dustin]

Many have tried to pipe hot air directly from the insert to other places. Unless it’s designed specifically to do that from the factory, most stoves forbid it in their manuals.

 

[Visca]

If a freestanding stove can pipe heat to the floors above, that would be the most economical option for us.
I attach a plan of a cross section of the house. Only thing missing are two bathrooms across from the stairs on the first and second floors. I indicated the position of where we plan to put the chimney/stove/oven/insert/whatever in the living room and kitchen.
thanks!

 

[begreen]

Is the red in the Living Room indicating a fireplace location or a new free-standing stove location? This setup looks like it might work ok for a freestanding stove without a blower. Heat will convect naturally upstairs if there is no barrier to the stairwell opening. A top down view of the first floor would be clearer in showing this. If the blower is an option on the stove then I think I would try the stove without it first.

 

[Tron]

I agree with @begreen, the heat will find its way upstairs, no matter what. Personal experience. However, most of it will end up at the topmost floor.
But then again, consider how you use your bedroom. Probably to sleep, and for that you don't want it too warm, either.

Depending on local building codes, requirements and the involved distances, the chimney above the kitchen might need to be extended quite a bit to reach above the main roof. Can't have it too close to a wall.

 

[Amin1992]

I disconnected the fan in my semi-flush insert and the majority here told me it wouldn't work well without it.

So far it's been working beautifully without the fan and even still it sweats us out of our den when we use it. I don't miss the fan one bit.

It's located in our lower level den. We have a fan in the room along with a stove top fan, and the heat moves pretty easily upstairs where the rest of the house is also heated with a pellet stove.

 

[Visca]

Hi again, thought I would keep this thread as I have another related question.

We're going for a La Nordica 80 cm insert with fan in the living room. The installer said we would really need it to heat the house's upper floors quickly but everything I've learned since then as we are planning the installation (tomorrow) is bringing up more questions for me.

It seems that the installation involves 3 pipes - a smoke pipe vented to the chimney and outside, a fan pipe for air to the second floor and another fan pipe for air to the third floor. Somehow I didn't realize or think through that air would be forced out with the fan and it doesn't seem to be like the best solution for someone with asthma but anyway. The installer wants to know where we want to position the air vents on the tubes that go through the bedrooms above. To me it seemed logical to position them close to the ground, but he says most people position them near the ceiling to avoid raising dust on the floor (!! how much air is this thing forcing out??). I'm guessing we will be using the fan to get a blast of warmth when we come home to a cold house, and then keep it off.

This division between smoke and warm air going into different tubes seems strange to me, can anyone explain or point me to an explanation of how that can work? And any thoughts about the position of the air vents?

Merci

 

[Tron]

If you want to speed up getting warm air upstairs, those pipes should work. I would definitively position the openings near the ceiling, because that's where the warm air is. Near the floor would impact their effectiveness severely, I'd think.
There should be air going through them by convection even with the fan off, so you'd might want to have a way to shut them off with a damper or register in case it gets too warm upstairs. The warm air will find its way up there anyway.

 

[Visca]

Thanks Tron. i would have thought that vents near the floor would help heat the whole room as the hot air travels from floor to ceiling, whereas if hot air emerges near the ceiling it will just stay there? Our HVAC at the office has heating vents in the ceiling so if you stand up it's unbearably hot, meanwhile sitting at your desk your feet are freezing...
Good point about the damper I'll check that.

 

[Tron]

Ok, maybe I misunderstood:
The intake in the stove room should be near the ceiling
The exhaust upstairs can be at ground level. I wouldn't put them in the floor, though, because of dirt getting into them, but a foot above the floor should be good.