Farewell Clean Power Plan

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Ok , I'll bite . How many are killed or hurt by both policies . Actual evidence . Not theories , not conjecture ... actual PROVEN numbers .

I suspect that word PROVEN will be the end of us. Legally? Scientifically? Mathematically? Common sense?

In terms of peer-reviewed studies it is currently accepted that:
--Air pollution from fossil combustion (CO, NOx, etc) is a major cause of heart disease.
--Air pollution particulates from fossils and biomass lead to respiratory disease, asthma, etc.
--Gasoline vapors (mostly benzene) were a major cause of cancer.

Estimates of the number of humans killed by air pollution, based upon the above evidence, are in the 5-10 million people/year range.

It is also hypothesized that air pollution particulates, such as from diesel engines, lead to dementia and Alzheimers, but further study is needed.

It is also accepted that:
--Methane and CO2 associated with fossil energy are greenhouse gases that together largely account for the observed global warming over the last few decades.
--Fossil CO2 is causing ocean acidification.

These effects are causing major disturbances to marine and terrestrial ecosystems, that are projected to become much worse after 2050 at current fossil usage rates.

As for renewable energy...you should be glad that the US's subsidies were and are so small. Steep subsidies overseas (EU, China, Japan) have driven the learning curve on wind and solar, driving down the prices of both to the point that they are profitable in the US without subsidies. These will be the solution to the public health and climate problems above.
 
Re: creating bigger messes... That is the pattern of human development.

But it obviously doesn't have to be that way. Making disposal of waste into landfills more costly would solve all sorts of problems.
 
No tricks zone.com seem so be a selective anti GW site so best taken with a large block of salt. The turbine blades are not made with particularly toxic materials. Not much more than a lot of consumer products. Far more inert than the toxics generated by fossil production. I expect with some thought blade sections could be re-purposed for structural elements. It comes down to the businessman is going to dispose of them at his least cost. If its costs less to landfill and there are no laws against it they will do it.

I have seen other studies on the solar panel waste and its a mixed story. The manufacturing waste for silicone can be quite toxic unless fairly expensive post processing is done. One of the reasons there was a shortage of silicone several years ago was that building plants that didnt generate toxic waste were incredibly expensive, the Chinese basically built new plants without the expensive post processing and dumped the toxic waste in the environment, basically driving any responsible companies out of business. There was a solar technology that used cadmium in panels but thankfully they are no longer produced. The solder based grids on the pretty much standard silicon panels can be removed with proven technology and the remaining broken silicon and glass can be either reprocessed or can be blended in with road asphalt. I believe the Germans require full life cycle custody of PV panels as well as other durables. The system works until someone figures out that the quick buck is ship it to a third world country and let them take the environmental hit. Even if China cleans up their act there is always someone willing to trash their environment http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/10/world/a-pacific-island-nation-is-stripped-of-everything.html
 
Re: creating bigger messes... That is the pattern of human development.
But it obviously doesn't have to be that way. Making disposal of waste into landfills more costly would solve all sorts of problems.
I agree ! Its amazing how much can be recycled. If you make an tiny effort. Humans are one species that definitely foul their own nest ,BIG TIME . I see no benefit to policies promoting population growth which leads all sorts of problems (that pile up) that are not being addressed.
 
No tricks zone.com seem so be a selective anti GW site so best taken with a large block of salt. The turbine blades are not made with particularly toxic materials. Not much more than a lot of consumer products. Far more inert than the toxics generated by fossil production. I expect with some thought blade sections could be re-purposed for structural elements. It comes down to the businessman is going to dispose of them at his least cost. If its costs less to landfill and there are no laws against it they will do it.

I have seen other studies on the solar panel waste and its a mixed story. The manufacturing waste for silicone can be quite toxic unless fairly expensive post processing is done. One of the reasons there was a shortage of silicone several years ago was that building plants that didnt generate toxic waste were incredibly expensive, the Chinese basically built new plants without the expensive post processing and dumped the toxic waste in the environment, basically driving any responsible companies out of business. There was a solar technology that used cadmium in panels but thankfully they are no longer produced. The solder based grids on the pretty much standard silicon panels can be removed with proven technology and the remaining broken silicon and glass can be either reprocessed or can be blended in with road asphalt. I believe the Germans require full life cycle custody of PV panels as well as other durables. The system works until someone figures out that the quick buck is ship it to a third world country and let them take the environmental hit. Even if China cleans up their act there is always someone willing to trash their environment http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/10/world/a-pacific-island-nation-is-stripped-of-everything.html
so enviro prog is also in the same camp when they say this?
In countries like China, India, and Ghana, communities living near e-waste dumps often burn the waste in order to salvage the valuable copper wires for resale. Since this process requires burning off the plastic, the resulting smoke contains toxic fumes that are carcinogenic and teratogenic (birth defect-causing) when inhale

as you point out about Europe, but Calif>?
Neither does California, a world leader in deploying solar panels. Only Europe requires solar panel makers to collect and dispose of solar waste at the end of their lives.
 
Generally its up to government to pass laws to prevent the lack of responsible recycling. Unfortunately of late the big rush is to deregulate.
 
Doesnt make a lot of sense for CA to pass a recycling law as it makes them uncompetitive with other states. Far better to pass a national standard. Of course PV panels generally dont wear out unless they were built with defects, the performance usually just degrades. Many of the original consumer panels twenty plus years old have exhibited far less degradation than expected. My suspicion is that older panels will just get salvaged for sale to less prosperous countries. The original Arco Carizzo quad lams ended up being sold to the public for reuse and was the basis for many an off the grid homesteader. When they do come up for resale they usually still have a buyer. I keep an eye out for specific surplus panels and there is a ready market for them unless they are fundamentally defective. (The PITA is the cost and hassle to ship small numbers).

I expect the reuse issue is going to pop up in Mass. Many of the solar arrays that have cropped up to grab the lucrative SRECs are on land owned by someone else. The contract usually assume the arrays are worthless in 20 years (usually prior to the second inverter change out) and the array gets dumped back on the land owner. There still probably is residual value to the array but the investor has already written it off and doesnt want residual value as it messes up the accounting. I know the developers are pushing cash poor towns and land trusts to put up arrays on vacant land but the smart one realize that in 20 years they may end up with a worthless asset that costs a lot of money to either rehab or rip out. The hassle is PV is still evolving and I expect it will continue. The new NEC revision for high voltage commercial arrays has just made the majority of commercial fields an obsolete design. They will still put out power but when it comes to refit they will either need substantial reconfiguration if possible or double the number of inverters required compared to arrays designed to the new standards.

The tough side of reselling older panels is that there is a fine line between selling them for reuse versus selling them for scrap value. Much of the E- waste gets shipped offshore under the guise of productive reuse when in reality its getting sold for scrap value. I expect if the US passed mandatory recycling, this back door would need to be scrutinized. I suspect more than a few German cradle to grave products have ended up offshore in the third world.

It will be interesting to see the fate of the Tesla Solar roofs, they too will degrade in performance and at some point I expect they wont be worth upgrading. Will the owners just abandon the generation and leave them in place or will them replace them with the next generation and leave a pile of scrap tiles to be dealt with by someone in the future. Unlike standard modules they appear to be less easy to recycle as a PV array.

Some old panels do slip through the cracks, Sun Electronics was giving away pallets of odd ball panels earlier this year for the cost of shipping and I expect someone paid them to take them off their hands. Hopefully the new owners have found a use for them but expect some will end up at the local dump when folks figure out their limitations (low wattage and low efficiency with short lifespans due to chemistry used). .
 
Last edited:
just curious, have noticed more of these type of articles showing up. starting to look like for everything you gain there is a cost?http://environmentalprogress.org/big-news/2017/6/21/are-we-headed-for-a-solar-waste-crisis

http://notrickszone.com/2017/06/22/...-turbine-blade-disposal/#sthash.SZTKOgei.dpbs

I am all in favor of a cradle to grave recycling program where manufacturers are responsible for recycling and disposal after service. It often just take small design changes to facilitate disassembly into recyclable components, so it is good to have that engineered into it from the beginning. We teach our engineering students about this in school today as best practice.

That said, the first article was non sensical....comparing the volume of spent nuclear fuel rods to the volume of solar panels. There is obviously a much larger mass/volume of material at a nuclear plant than just the fuel rods...its not like all of that stuff can last forever and doesn't need to be dismantled and disposed of (much of it as non-recycleable low or medium-medium level rad waste). Give me a break.

Most of the mass of solar panels is glass and the metal frames and supports used to hold them in place. The supports can be re-used after the panels degrade, and the glass and metal in the solar panel are completely and trivially recyclable. The silicon and conductor mass in the panels is surprisingly low....having been reduced intentionally during the price reduction process b/c the silicon is expensive to make per volume. Does this site state the mass of silicon in the panels....or the 100x larger mass of glass and metal supports? The situation here is much better than e-waste, where the parts are highly integrated....PV panels are just a bonded sandwich. The use of a potting agent that was soluble with a non-toxic solvent (like acetone or methanol) would make it trivially easy to disassemble and clean the different materials for recycling.

The second site was worse....just listing a bunch of scary concerns about the material (fiberglass) and big numbers for the amount of material. So, a million tons is a pile that would cover a football field. So the worldwide wind industry would cover 43 football fields per year, or fewer if you piled it higher? After a century you would have one little mountain of chopped fiberglass for the entire global wind industry. Sounds pretty sustainable to me. The author says it might take a long time to break down (its fiberglass, duh) and also that it might produce methane in a landfill (LOL). The article also starts with a 4 year old number (why not use a more recent one) and states the wind fraction in primary energy terms, which inflates the fossil contribution by 2-3X or more, rewarding the built-in thermodynamic and other losses associated with fossil combustion, but NOT renewable power.

The coal method in current use produces many mountains of ash as a solid byproduct, I am too lazy to compare, but it seems that any decent single coal plant produces its own hefty pile. Imagine how much toxic ash that is for 1000s of plants running a century! And of course we turn it into bricks and build elementary schools out of it. Will we make bricks and schools out of chopped wind turbine blades...why not?

any thoughts are we moving so fast we are creating another mess?

I would argue that with every generation of technology, the energy service and human value goes up immensely while the eco impact goes down. Could we power our civilization of today with biomass? What would be the eco devastation if we tried? Many historical civilizations that flowered literally had to chop down every tree before the curtain fell. So fossils are a lower eco-footprint tha biomass (compared to historical unsustainable practice) and there is not enough sustainable biomass to do the job. Fossils burned clean would be great for the environment if there were enough to keep the lights on for more than a century or so and if it weren't for all that CO2.

The amount of (trivially unrecycleable) PV and fiberglass waste being described here is tiny (and a landfillable solid) compared to the decimation from coal mining, oil spills, gigatons of CO2 in the atmosphere for 100 generations, ash waste, dementia-inducing atmospheric microparticles, etc. So, give it a break. Renewable energy sources like wind and PV are affordable and sustainable for centuries using current practice, with minimal eco impact, which pales in comparison to the current approach.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sloeffle
I am all in favor of a cradle to grave recycling program where manufacturers are responsible for recycling and disposal after service. It often just take small design changes to facilitate disassembly into recyclable components, so it is good to have that engineered into it from the beginning. We teach our engineering students about this in school today as best practice.

That said, the first article was non sensical....comparing the volume of spent nuclear fuel rods to the volume of solar panels. There is obviously a much larger mass/volume of material at a nuclear plant than just the fuel rods...its not like all of that stuff can last forever and doesn't need to be dismantled and disposed of (much of it as non-recycleable low or medium-medium level rad waste). Give me a break.

Most of the mass of solar panels is glass and the metal frames and supports used to hold them in place. The supports can be re-used after the panels degrade, and the glass and metal in the solar panel are completely and trivially recyclable. The silicon and conductor mass in the panels is surprisingly low....having been reduced intentionally during the price reduction process b/c the silicon is expensive to make per volume. Does this site state the mass of silicon in the panels....or the 100x larger mass of glass and metal supports? The situation here is much better than e-waste, where the parts are highly integrated....PV panels are just a bonded sandwich. The use of a potting agent that was soluble with a non-toxic solvent (like acetone or methanol) would make it trivially easy to disassemble and clean the different materials for recycling.

The second site was worse....just listing a bunch of scary concerns about the material (fiberglass) and big numbers for the amount of material. So, a million tons is a pile that would cover a football field. So the worldwide wind industry would cover 43 football fields per year, or fewer if you piled it higher? After a century you would have one little mountain of chopped fiberglass for the entire global wind industry. Sounds pretty sustainable to me. The author says it might take a long time to break down (its fiberglass, duh) and also that it might produce methane in a landfill (LOL). The article also starts with a 4 year old number (why not use a more recent one) and states the wind fraction in primary energy terms, which inflates the fossil contribution by 2-3X or more, rewarding the built-in thermodynamic and other losses associated with fossil combustion, but NOT renewable power.

The coal method in current use produces many mountains of ash as a solid byproduct, I am too lazy to compare, but it seems that any decent single coal plant produces its own hefty pile. Imagine how much toxic ash that is for 1000s of plants running a century! And of course we turn it into bricks and build elementary schools out of it. Will we make bricks and schools out of chopped wind turbine blades...why not?



I would argue that with every generation of technology, the energy service and human value goes up immensely while the eco impact goes down. Could we power our civilization of today with biomass? What would be the eco devastation if we tried? Many historical civilizations that flowered literally had to chop down every tree before the curtain fell. So fossils are a lower eco-footprint tha biomass (compared to historical unsustainable practice) and there is not enough sustainable biomass to do the job. Fossils burned clean would be great for the environment if there were enough to keep the lights on for more than a century or so and if it weren't for all that CO2.

The amount of (trivially unrecycleable) PV and fiberglass waste being described here is tiny (and a landfillable solid) compared to the decimation from coal mining, oil spills, gigatons of CO2 in the atmosphere for 100 generations, ash waste, dementia-inducing atmospheric microparticles, etc. So, give it a break. Renewable energy sources like wind and PV are affordable and sustainable for centuries using current practice, with minimal eco impact, which pales in comparison to the current approach.

A always a lot of sensible thought in your writing, so as they say at a crime scene," nothing to see here, move along." Happy New Year
abandoned-windmill-in-the-norfolk-broads-national-park.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: woodgeek