Feel like I should be getting way more heat

[mdrew]

This is my second Vermont Castings wood stove. The first was a behemoth Defiant, and now I'm on to an Encore. The stove is set into an existing fireplace by about 1/4 deep, rear exit to a 90 and straight up the existing external chimney via stainless liner.

I feel like I should be getting way more heat out of this thing than I've been getting. I stand right next to it, and can feel warmth, but the rest of the place just takes forever to heat up.

The house isn't insulated. It's at the top of my list of things to get done.

I haven't peeked up inside where the chimney goes up the flu. I'm not positive the installers blocked off the rectangular flu hole around the round stove pipe liner.

The main room, with the fireplace, has three windows, two are big, about 5ft by 6ft each. Double pane, un-opening.

I also think the stove has it's air-inlet right there in my living room. That might create a negative pressure and bring in air from outside.

Any ideas on where I could start looking to make this room warmer? Thanks!

Looky-roundy pic: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HF4eKL7qrYAXxEth9

and this current pic of the stove

 

[Dmitry]

I'm not familiar with this kind of stove, but stove of this size should heat place like this substantially. I also don't know how experienced you are with wood burning.( But you say it's your second stove). Place might be poorly insulated, but I see it was remodeled , so no holes in walls.
Let start with basics:
1. Is your wood dry enough? Don't assume it's dry because it was outside for certain amount of time or you bought it "seasoned". Get moisture meter and measure moisture % on fresh split . Should be at least around 20% or less.
2. Check if you have block off plate in your chimney. If installer left a hole there it has to be fixed. It sucks lot of warm air from your house and all the heat from stove goes up to chimney outside. Insulation shoved there is not a block off plate, it still air permeable.
3. I see thermometer on a top of the stove. What temps you are getting at different times of the burn. What is your burn routine?
4. Is it outside chimney? (I see that house next to yours has chimney outside).
Let start with this.

 

[begreen]

This is my second Vermont Castings wood stove. The first was a behemoth Defiant, and now I'm on to an Encore. The stove is set into an existing fireplace by about 1/4 deep, rear exit to a 90 and straight up the existing external chimney via stainless liner.

I feel like I should be getting way more heat out of this thing than I've been getting. I stand right next to it, and can feel warmth, but the rest of the place just takes forever to heat up.

The house isn't insulated. It's at the top of my list of things to get done.

I haven't peeked up inside where the chimney goes up the flu. I'm not positive the installers blocked off the rectangular flu hole around the round stove pipe liner.

The main room, with the fireplace, has three windows, two are big, about 5ft by 6ft each. Double pane, un-opening.

I also think the stove has it's air-inlet right there in my living room. That might create a negative pressure and bring in air from outside.

Any ideas on where I could start looking to make this room warmer? Thanks!

Looky-roundy pic: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HF4eKL7qrYAXxEth9

and this current pic of the stove

View attachment 230324

Which model Encore is this?

 

[mdrew]

Encore 2N1, I chatted with my local dealer, who remains terrific and remembered me even after a year, and I think it's just going to take a little more time getting used to the stove and its (and mine and wife's) proclivities.

Because the top of the Chimney is blocked off, there isn't any meaningful airflow up and out the Chimney. My stainless liner goes all the way up.

 

[Hogwildz]

If there is no lower block off, that will cause two issues, Heat rising up the old cavity and bleeding out the masonry, and also let cold air flow downward into the house.

 

[kennyp2339]

Its sometimes pretty tough to get heat from a radiant stove that's in a fireplace, there really not made for that, but can still can be installed that way.
Since the house is relatively un-insulated you more btu's forced into the living space, things can be done at a relatively low cost to get more heat.
As hog mentioned - lower block off plate, also adding a insulation area above the block off plate will keep the heat from rising and being absorbed into the masonry chimney. Roxal insulation is best for this, the plate itself can be thin gauge sheet metal, caulk will be needed to fully seal the plate between the masonry.
OAK - outside air connection - this is a dedicated air source for your stove, this then reduces the need to use conditioned air (inside house air) to burn, there fore reducing the make up air entering the house (that cold draft you feel near the stove when barefoot)
Box fan - a box fan running on low pointed at the stove will help move colder denser air towards the unit, the air that get pulled into the stove air is naturally replaced by warmer air, some people have established this works with a cheap fan, then they build a cold air return with an inline duct fan which depending on the homes setup can be less evasive / noisy then a box fan.
And as Dmitry mentioned - wood, 20% moisture content or less makes it (seasoned) and burning temps of the stove, consult your manual for that since VC's are fairly picky and have tighter tolerances when burning (past horror stories about over fires w/ $$$$ pricey replacement parts)

 

[jetsam]

Obviously insulation is the most important first step. Insulating a whole house that is already drywalled and occupied is a big project though. The insulation itself is less work than taking out all the drywall in an occupied house. I'd consider taking off the siding and sheathing and doing it from the outside- that is more work, but it doesn't disrupt the occupants, and you can add housewrap under the siding while you are at it.

After that, insulate the fireplace (if it is an exterior chimney) and make sure there is a block-off plate.

If you are still not doing well after that, you could look into extending the hearth and putting in a rear-vent stove that isn't half inside the fireplace, or don't extend and get a semiflush insert that is designed to radiate heat from the front.

I'd also look into that living room air inlet. Install an OAK connected to the stove and plug that sucker up, and your intake air will be going through the stove instead of through the house.

 

[begreen]

I second Hogwildz observation. There should be an insulated block-off plate at the damper area. This can be retrofitted.

How is the stove being operated, in updraft (bypass open) or high-efficiency mode (bypass closed)? Does the stove have a cat thermometer so that you know what cat temp is the stove running at?

 

[Woodsplitter67]

When you saying your not feeling much heat, what is your griddle temp, and do you have a thermometer on the griddle and one on the stack

 

[Hogwildz]

Before tearing off drywall or outer sheathing, check into blown in cellulose insulation, much easier, less intrusive to install, and better insulation characteristics. Another option is to take the siding off and install a board based insulation such as polyisocyanurate. Polyiso is approx 6-1/2 R value per inch, and the boards with foam at penetrations would make a nice air seal, which is the biggest factor in insulating.

 

[jetsam]

If you have attic access to the space between the studs and it's a 1 story house, blow-in can be pretty painless. Good thinkin'!

Not sure about rigid foam because even if you just do R12, you have to cover a new 4" gap at the corners when you put the old siding back on.

Also possible that it's hard to pull the siding without replacing it (asbestos, cement, aluminum).

 

[mdrew]

So many great ideas.

@Hogwildz good point. Even though the salesman I spoke with said there wouldn't be any appreciable air flow, I can still image heat simply rising up that big cold cavity. @jetsam yes, the chimney is exterior, and cold. But the stainless liner goes the entire length of the chimney to the cap. I will look at getting some sheet metal cut to shape, then high temp caulked to the masonry (and liner? =HOT), then Roxal over that.

@kennyp2339 what I'd consider, but wife will not consider, is bricking up the fireplace hole entirely, extending brick up towards the ceiling, drilling a 6.5in hole into the chimney higher up, then having a single walled stove pipe for 5-6ft in the room. The challenge there, is wife doesn't want stove even a few inches more into the room. Needless to say, the hearth brick would also need to be extended into the room, even now I don't think it's to code.

@kennyp2339 I also like the little box fan idea. I have one of those cheesy fans on the top of the stove. The main room is large, almost a double room. The other side has a ceiling fan that I usually leave on low that keeps the air circulating around the room.

@Woodsplitter67 I do have a temperature gauge on the top center of the griddle plate (manual page 26 diagram). Because the stove is recessed a little into a fireplace, I didn't install the catalytic temperature gauge. If I did, I wouldn't be able to see it anyhow way back there without a couple mirrors. I was thinking of getting this digital probe with 6ft lead for $70.

@Dmitry I've been burning untreated construction waste, exclusively pine 2x4s and 4x4s. I assume they are very dry. But later this winter I'll start getting into hemlock and pine split wood. I will do the oven technique to measure moisture content in all those pieces before I start burning to make sure the moisture is less than the =<20% you mentioned.

@jetsam waiting to get to this nuclear option until end! House is lathe and plaster. Outside is aluminum siding over regular siding. I got a bid to insulate the whole house (and ADU) that came to only $3-4Gs. I think. This includes some rebates offered by the local power company, thank goodness. It's super intrusive, and a big project. We'll have to move the furniture to the center of the rooms, cover it all in plastic, because every 16in they're going to angle grinder a hole into the interior wall to blow insulation in. That's a lot of dust, and a lot of holes.

@begreen I start the stove off in direct vent mode until it comes up to temp, 450F or thereabouts (page 26 in manual) I'll put it into bypass mode going through the catalyst.

So reading over this good stuff! I'm going to:
1. fab up a metal plate to block off the chimney, caulk it (high temp), then cover that with Roxul insulation, maybe from here?
2. check dryness of wood before burning.
3. get house insulated

Later, I may get that catalytic temp sensor for a more accurate temperature readings.

Thanks a million all. I will post pics when I make some progress on this!

 

[jetsam]

Plaster and lath with aluminum siding is a difficult scenario, brother. That is hard to work with inside and outside, and exterior foam board is out. If you damage a piece of siding, you can't just go order a new one, and the plaster will probably produce exciting new cracks for a year after you cut holes in it every 16".

I would see if you can get blow-in insulation in from the top... go look in the attic. Maybe you can avoid cutting all those holes.

If it was me and I couldn't do it from the top, I might still think about going from the outside.

No company is going to take on the liability of removing probably-irreplacable aluminum siding. They'd wind up taking in $3k for an insulation job and paying more than that to re-side your house with vinyl, so that project would be all on you, and you'd need to be super careful.

 

[mdrew]

exciting new cracks: yes. Hard to work on both inside and outside: yup. Attic is out, it's a finished attic, there are knees up there, but there are still horizontal top boards (and hell, probably fire blocks too!) that would eliminate attic for exterior wall insulation. I'm just going to leave it up to the professionals. Looked up bid again, it's $3500 for main house and ADU. Not horrible.

 

[begreen]

Home Depot or Lowes should sell Roxul insulation in batt form. Stuff it around the liner above the block off plate, then install the blockoff plate. Use regular silicone to seal the perimeter flange of the block-off plate and nothing around the liner, just try to make it tight. If the gap between the liner and plate is ? 1/4" use stove gasket to fill the gap.

Check out the links at the bottom of this wiki page for some ideas on installation.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/why-damper-seal-is-needed-block-off-plate-install/

 

[Woodsplitter67]

So just as an FYI you can take your stove past 450. You can easy run the stove at 500 to 550. Dont take it past 650. I have had mine at 550 to 600 with no problems. You dont have to close the damper eather. You can just burn in noncat mode keeping the temps on the stove up but your going to go through alot of wood.. id look into fixing the heat loss problems in the home. Its a cast stove.. it puts out some heat.. good bed of coles with some logs..

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Just out of curiosity what kind of wood you running in the stove and mositure content..

 

[Jags]

If you are topping out at 450f stove top you are not even tapping into its capabilities. The difference between a stove sitting at 450 vs one at 600 is tremendous.

 

[mdrew]

@Woodsplitter67 and @Jags oh no no, I'm definitely getting the stove hot. Up there when I wrote 450F as "up to temp" that was when, thereabouts, I'll close the damper and go to catalytic by-pass mode. The stove gets much hotter from there. I usually keep a pretty close eye on the temperature and dial down the right side temperature control if it gets too hot.

By and large I'm an urban woodsman: 2x4 and 4x4 construction waste. I spend time pulling nails and staples, chopping into manageable pieces, and stacking that up. Once I make it though this pallet, I'll get into some doug fir and hemlock. I haven't checked the moisture in the split wood yet, but when I get some time, I'll do the oven bake and weigh technique I found on youtube.

 

[ajayabb]

Make sure to use a catalyst temp probe in the stove. My griddle temps on my Encore are not reliable reflections of the Cat. At 600 degree griddle temps, my cat is approaching 1800


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[mdrew]

@ajayabb holy smokes! I figured the griddle would be way hotter than the catalyst. Whoops. Better get that probe going. I'll do it at the same time I (somehow) pull the stove out to put a draft plate insulation thing behind the stove to the old fireplace flu.

 

[begreen]

Just the opposite. The cat will be in the 1000 to 1200F range. It's where all the reburn is happening.

 

[Mich woodcutter]

Hello
Im experiencing the same thing with a Defiant. I had a Defiant I purchased in 2001 and it produced a lot of heat.
The new one I bought last year is very disappointing. Its not the sqme.
I almost thought about cutting my losses and getting a Drolet

 

[jetsam]

Make sure to use a catalyst temp probe in the stove. My griddle temps on my Encore are not reliable reflections of the Cat. At 600 degree griddle temps, my cat is approaching 1800


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Careful with that; Condar says not to run their cats over 1500 degrees. Check with your cat manufacturer.

 

[ajayabb]

Careful with that; Condar says not to run their cats over 1500 degrees. Check with your cat manufacturer.

Exactly the point I was making. I try to keep my cat around 1200-1300 when cruising. But relying on surface temps can quickly result in an overfire


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