Finally, which stove?

[Riverstone]

Thanks to the forums, I've figured out 1) I'd prefer a hearth-mount stove to an insert, despite the extra work, 2) I have to rebuild and lower my raised hearth to make room, and 3) that my Jotul dealer is giving me good prices. Thanks to all for the good information...

I was all set to buy the Jotul Castine, as I mentioned in a previous post, but the dealer is telling me it'll heat me out of the room. So, could I have some opinions here? I have a 14' exterior chimney in a 266 square foot room. Chimney now has 8x12 clay tiles, and will get a full length SS liner. The room has large openings to about 150 more square feet, and then a small opening to a hallway that leads to two bedrooms. The total is about 1000-1100 square feet. We have one level and are pretty well insulated--probably 7 out of 10. There's a large, older north-facing window in the stove room, however, so I'm trying to factor that in. Am in northern Michigan, which is cold, but somewhat mitigated by being close to Lake Michigan. I'd say average winter nighttime temp is 20, 30 during the days.

I don't need an overnight burn, and don't have any illusions about that. But I do like the idea of some room to build a fire.

I like the extra room in the Castine, but I'm thinking I might be better off with the F3CB--any thoughts? I love the new Alderleas, and would consider a T4, but it's top-exit only. I'd have to put a 90 elbow right off of the collar to head back into the fireplace. Maybe it's too big, anyway. I also would consider a Quad Yosemite, mostly for the side door. My heart is in the Jotuls, I think, and I do like the radiant heat of cast iron. But I'm open to anything that heat well, burn clean, and look nice.

I've also talked to others about the F118 Black Bear, which I love and would try, but again my dealer told me it would be as hot or hotter than the Castine. Not that it would burn all night, just that it's too much stove mass for the room if I'm burning at good temps.

Any suggestions would be very helpful.
Thanks!

 

[begreen]

I can definitely say nonsense to the dealer claim of it driving you out of the room. The stove will put out no more heat than the amount of wood you load into it. We've used a Castine to heat the house when it's 50 outside. It's a very controllable stove that warms up to secondary combustion temps pretty quickly. You can burn smaller hot fires and not have a furnace.

Now the caveat. The F400 is a bit more draft sensitive than the F3CB in a rear-exit configuration. But it will work. The biggest negative will be the exterior chimney. Be sure to insulate the liner and add a block off plate. Insulating the liner will help improve draft.

What are the dimensions of the current fireplace and hearth? If you can post a picture of the current hearth that would be great.

 

[jeffee]

I've only burned wood one year so far, so I'm hardly an expert!
Get the black bear! It's a wonderful stove! I don't have any other stove to compare it with though.

It really works wonderfully. When I read your post and description of the size and layout .... it seems to me it would be a good fit.

Feel free to ask me any questions about it.

-Jeff

 

[Carl]

We live in northern Michigan near Traverse City and our house is about 1000 sq ft like yours. For the last 18 years we
used a jotul f3 for total heat except the last three years we only used it on occasion. Now with propane going up so much
we are back to wood burning.

I purchased a yosemite a month ago which was on sale and like it. About the same as the
f3 jotul. The side door to me is a problem. It is very small and won't accept very large wood through it. Maybe 4 inch or
so. The other problem I find with it is it has a metal plate over it on the inside, maybe to replicate the rest of the steel
box. This doesn't seal and the cast iron door has the seal. Anyway, the steel cover on the cast iron side door has an air
space behind it. This lets smoke circulate there and it has built up creosote behind the plate. When you then fire up a really
hot fire we melted the creosote behind the steel door and it dripped just a little out of the stove. Not much but I don't think
it should do this. I removed one of the spacers behind the latch to make it seal tighter and so far so good. Maybe we had
a slight air leak on this side door which would answer why the creosote built up on that door. New stove so will work with it for
a while and see how it goes next year. I do know the side door won't get much use if any so would just as soon not have it.

I did look at the new castine and a nice stove indeed. We like the porcelan look so
went with the yosemite. Our other house has a quadafire in it and we have burned it when there for the past 10 years and love
it. All steel though with only one door. Another reason we went with the quadrafire.

 

[Riverstone]

Here's a pic. The carpet will be wood. The raised hearth will be lowered, flush with the floor, tiled and extended (that raised hearth sits on top of 6 inches of concrete in the floor joists). The wood trim will extend down, and the brick will be covered in tile. The actual fireplace opening is the same size as that piece of steel, which was a temporary fix to get an open fire to draw (otherwise ratio of opening to flue was too big). Revised opening will be 48 inches wide and 35.5 inches tall. Wood trim is 12 inches from the edge of the opening all around. Current firebox is 20 inches deep at the center.

Anyway, so the Castine (or 3CB, or Black Bear, or any other suggestion) will sit at floor level, rear vent back 20 inches, and then straight up.

BG, if I have an 8x12 clay liner now, can I still fit the SS liner AND insulation? Also, in your experience with the Castine, I can regulate temps pretty well and still burn clean? I expected to burn it a little low while we're in there, and then at bed time let it burn hotter, as we'll be in a back room (may work out well that way). But dealer said it would be safer to burn the 3CB hot all the time.

thanks again!

 

[begreen]

That helps, what's the metallic stuff surrounding the firebox opening? The reason I'm asking is to see if you really need to remove the hearth, or not. If that is just metal trim, then can it be removed to enlarge the opening and allow the current hearth to remain at its current height?

The Castine will not get a whole lot hotter than the F3CB with a short burn. The F3CB is actually a fairly powerful little heater. The difference is in how much wood each stove holds. This really isn't an issue. Just fill the Castine with about a half load of wood. Let it get warm enough to fire off secondary combustion (about 400 stove top temp), and then damper down. The stove will cruise at about 400-500 stove top temps. You can also vary the heat by the type of wood you burn. Come mid-winter, in your climate zone, I strongly suspect you'll be pushing the stove for heat.

Good question about the liner insulation. It may be too snug if the tile liner is 8 x12 OD. Do you know the ID of the tile and whether the flue a straight shot up?

 

[Riverstone]

That metal is a temporary steel plate I used to shrink the firebox opening--without it, an open fire won't draw well enough, since the former owners changed the flue from 12x12 to 8x12 (for an old, terrible, terrifying insert that we took to the dump).

The REAL opening is basically the size of the steel's OUTER edge, which is 24.5" tall and 48" wide. So this firebox is fairly small, even without the steel. In a rear-vent setup, the top of the pipe on a castine is 29.5" off the floor--I've measured it all out, and the only other option would be an F100 Nordic, fully INSIDE the firebox, with the short leg kit, top-vented. With an exterior chimney, I just don't want to lose all the heat to the outside.

If I lower the hearth, the opening will be 35" tall and 48" wide.

I guess you're telling me what I want to hear, BG, which is that the Castine isn't too big, and that if operated intelligently it can burn clean and still work well in our small space.

One other question, though. Is there a mantel clearance issue on a freestanding stove? It would sit in front of the mantel's plane by a few inches, so I assume not.

 

[Riverstone]

Carl,
I live near T.C., too--west of there, in Empire.

About the F3--you, too, BG--what was your experience with wood size? Difficult to find wood that fits? Or is that firebox easier to maneuver in than it looks? Although I prefer everything about the Castine, including looks, I'd say my only real concern about downsizing is whether or not I'm going to struggle with fire building and loading every time...looks can take a far backseat to a stove that works for me, any day.

Thanks for your thoughts on the Yosemite...I'll keep it in mind, but I think I want a true cast stove.

 

[Ted69]

Ok I have had the Castine for one season this year. my wife and I Love it! The dealer thought I should should go smaller as not to heat myself out of the room. My house is 2400 sqft.
The stove worked great, even in the coldest weather no need to run the furnace. I have often thought I should have gone bigger F400 just for the longer burn times and bigger firebox, but life could be worse.
Just my two cents.
Ted

 

[jbrown56]

Hi, You should have room for the liner as I put a 6" rigid liner in my 8" x 12" clay flue. You can put loose fill insulation after the liner is down. Don't forget the block off plate at the bottom before you insulate.

Jim

 

[begreen]

Riverstone, can you look up your chimney flue and see if it is a clear straight shot or if it's offset or if it has misaligned tiles? Have you been on the roof to see how this 8x12 tile retrofit was done? It would help to see this too (take the camera and snap a shot) and to know the ID of the current tile pipe. In a way it's too bad they did this. With a 12x12 tile it would have been easy to drop an insulated pipe down to the stove. I suppose it could be busted out somehow. Jim's suggestion is a good one if the fit is snug.

The wood trim may be a small issue that needs to be worked around. The stove will need it's minimum clearances to combustibles followed. It can be protected with a sheetmetal guard that is offset to allow an airspace behind it. This can be painted with high-temp white paint and removed in the summer for a cleaner look when the stove in not in use.

Finding wood to fit the F3CB shouldn't be a big deal. Most wood sellers sell 16" splits. You'll need them to keep the splits on the smaller side, 3" thick and under. With the F400 this is not an issue. It will take 20" wood and normal splits. That's another benefit of the larger stove.

 

[Riverstone]

I'll try to get a pic of the flue and an ID for the clay liner. I do know it's a straight shot, though, with very few imperfections.

Can you direct me a bit more on the mantle clearance? The Jotul manuals reference a clearance from the top of stove to trim and mantle, but I assume that's if the stove is directly below a combustible surface. What if it's out in front of the firebox a bit--i.e. the back of the stove is in FRONT of the plane that the mantle/trim is on? I'll use double wall pipe to the liner T, so pipe clearance shouldn't be an issue.

If there's still a clearance issue from the top of the stove to the mantle, I may be back to putting the whole thing INSIDE of the firebox.

 

[begreen]

If the double-wall stove pipe is what is directly below the wood trim then I would expect the pipe clearance requirements to be the guideline.

 

[Riverstone]

Great. Thanks BG.

 

[blackgooseJT]

I've used an ivory Castine for my principal source of heat for 6 or 7 years. My house is a typical 1 1/2 story farmhouse ca. 1925 with no /poor insulation. 1700 sq. ft I use an old Morso 2B in another room when needed. With floor to ceiling kick registers my furnace rarely comes on. I've sold and serviced many hundreds of stoves , don't know every one out there, but I have no complaints with the Castine.It does not run us out and our winters have been pretty mild the last few years.Mine is top vented to a 2 ft. stick/ 90 degree elbow and right into an interior masonry chimney lined with Elmers heavy wall 22 guage SS pipe/ zero clearance blanket insulated.The draft will suck the chrome off a lug nut.

J.T. Black Goose

 

[Todd]

If you can't get the 6" liner down you 8x12 flue consider a 5.5" liner. Many here have opted for this since the 6" is a very tight fit. You can also ovalize a 6" to fit but don't know how you would clean it properly unless they sell an oval brush.

 

[stoveguy13]

The F400 hundred is the right stove for you the 3 cb is to small i sell alot of jotuls and by no means would i say the f400 is to big i think you will be diapointed with the 3 and the burn time in your climate with the 3 will be close to 3 hours to heat that space thhere is no harm at all in the f400 in that size room and tha added burn time you will get from the f400 is well worth the extra cash i would not hesitate to put a f500 in that size house if you wanted to primary heat with it.

 

[Carl]

Carl,
I live near T.C., too--west of there, in Empire.

About the F3--you, too, BG--what was your experience with wood size? Difficult to find wood that fits? Or is that firebox easier to maneuver in than it looks? Although I prefer everything about the Castine, including looks, I'd say my only real concern about downsizing is whether or not I'm going to struggle with fire building and loading every time...looks can take a far backseat to a stove that works for me, any day.

Thanks for your thoughts on the Yosemite...I'll keep it in mind, but I think I want a true cast stove.

I cut my own wood so no problem with wood size. If you need to purchase wood 16 inch is ok but you may have to split it more from what the seller did. Easy on wood and it heated our house fine. Morning wakeups were a little cool but we didn't mind and usually enough coals left to start the fire again. Small enough to not take up half the house in hearth space. We kept it for 18 years so must have liked it. Upgraded because we thought the newer stoves might be more efficient but won't know that till next year. A larger firebox would be able to provide more constant heat for longer if you have the space for it. We didn't but maybe if we upgrade again may go one larger for a little longer night burn. If I woke up during the night I would add a couple of logs in the really cold times.

The jotul baffle is angled lower in the back and higher in the front which made loading easy. Three pieces did the job well.

I find the yosemite more difficult to load since the baffle is straight across while the jotul was a little higher in the front to make it easier to get larger wood in. This year I slabbed my wood in hopes of having an easier time loading the yosemite. It burns great and liking it better after burning it for a month. Geting used to it and our propane tank is holding steady with little usage.

Ah, Empire. a wonderful place of sanddunes, nature areas, and wind. We go there a few times a year and usually purchase a national park sticker.

 

[Riverstone]

Thanks for all the input. I've been researching my clearance issues, and comparing them to stove sizes, and I realize the Castine and its hearth would have to stick out pretty far into the room. I had thought it could go halfway in the fireplace, but the mantle above is too low, and there is no heat shield that meets the Aesthetics Department that I sleep next to.

So, I may go for the F100, which is the only Jotul that can be half-in/half-out of that fireplace. I just secured a good free source of wood, which I have to process myself, so the length of splits shouldn't be a problem. I also figure that if I need a bigger stove a year from now, I'll move the F100 to the office and move up a level in the living room. At least I'll have a better argument then. My guess, based on all the reviews and threads on the F100, is that it will do what I'd like it to do--people seem very happy with that little stove, all in all, and I think it may be a better drafting option for my short exterior chimney.

On that note, I'll look into a 5.5" liner, which I could insulate more easily--anyone other than StoveGuy have thoughts on a 5.5?

Now, thanks to the county's tree trimming operations, I need to cut and split some wood and get it out to dry...

 

[begreen]

I'm not following this line of thought. The opening is about 35" high, and 20" deep. Is that correct? The Castine is about 29" high and 23" deep, including the ash lip.

Some how I don't think this is going to be an issue. Even if a heat shield for the mantel would be required, it would be a relatively shallow one for the little projection of the stove. It could be attached to the metal lintel support and be painted high-temp white. Perhaps this is a issue of perception rather than a real problem?

 

[blackgooseJT]

There are some manufacturers who have tested their product on a 5.5" chimney. I think that was determined to be the easier answer to the lining question when dealing with a terra-cotta 8"x12" liner (nominal) which is closer to 6" wide on it's narrow axis. If you consider the natural variations in the product,occasional mortar overruns,and even minor mis-alignment stuffing a 6" naked liner in one of these can sometimes be more like putting a number 10 can in a number 9 hole. If you're dealing with corrugated flex material most installers will subtract 15% capacity to allow for the turbulence introduced by the corrugations.An exterior chimney in your location should be insulated. I'd probably be inclined to use a tile-buster to remove any previous re-lining attempt. It doesn't sound like it worked well enough to salvage as a fall back anyway. If the fireplace opening had to be modified that much to allow for combustion the liner was downsized too far.I would not use any loose fill. I promise you that it will find a way to loosen and migrate to where you don't want it-been there-done that. Yes you can use an ovalized liner,but fluids travel best in a cylinder, not an oblong. A "field-ovalized" corrugated flex liner is an ugly thing. It usually introduces enough extra turbulence to be no gain.In short:keep it round if you can,insulate,remove the tiles if needed, and avoid any downsizing.Good luck with your project!

J.T. Black Goose

 

[Riverstone]

In fact the Castine would fit ENTIRELY inside the firebox, which is 28" wide at the back, 27" deep, and (will be) 35" tall. If I were to do that, as I've asked about in another thread, I guess the masonry firebox would act as a heat shield and I wouldn't need to worry about clearance. I don't want to beat a dead horse, as I know it's been discussed around here a fair amount, but I had been convinced that putting the stove so deep into the firebox, which is exterior, would mean I'd lose most of the heat gain of the bigger stove to the outside world. But now that I think about it again, maybe it's just better to have the bigger stove, which I prefer, and accept the fact that my exterior chimney is imperfect and will sink some heat?

Two other benefits would be that a stove fully in the firebox could be more or less TOP vented, especially with flex, rather than rear, and the larger stove could be moved to a bigger house down the line.

**If it were you, would you go for a smaller stove out in the room somewhat, or a larger stove fully in the exterior firebox? Seems most of my respondents prefer the larger stove...

(As far as 6" vs. 5.5" liner, I'm going to go get the ID of the clay right now)

 

[Riverstone]

ID of the tile is 7" x 11", and there are two tiles offset by what looks like .5"--one on top of the other, both in the same direction. Otherwise, no cracks that I can see.

 

[btj1031]

I'd go with the Castine, which you could put in or out of the fireplace. Check out the "short legs" option. My fireplace is just shy of 28" high, and with the short legs I'm able to sit the Castine half in and half out of the fireplace. That might work in your fireplace, and it really kicks the heat out. Also, I have the rear vent setup into an clay flue that I know is bigger than 6" but I'm not sure how big - it drafts fine. I would avoid the F100. I looked at it as well, and that firebox is small. Small wood and small burn times. The F400 is bigger, but its not what I would consider a big stove, and its so well designed that it doesn't look like this big ugly hunk of iron in your room, thought that's what it is.

 

[begreen]

In fact the Castine would fit ENTIRELY inside the firebox, which is 28" wide at the back, 27" deep, and (will be) 35" tall. If I were to do that, as I've asked about in another thread, I guess the masonry firebox would act as a heat shield and I wouldn't need to worry about clearance. I don't want to beat a dead horse, as I know it's been discussed around here a fair amount, but I had been convinced that putting the stove so deep into the firebox, which is exterior, would mean I'd lose most of the heat gain of the bigger stove to the outside world. But now that I think about it again, maybe it's just better to have the bigger stove, which I prefer, and accept the fact that my exterior chimney is imperfect and will sink some heat?

Two other benefits would be that a stove fully in the firebox could be more or less TOP vented, especially with flex, rather than rear, and the larger stove could be moved to a bigger house down the line.

**If it were you, would you go for a smaller stove out in the room somewhat, or a larger stove fully in the exterior firebox? Seems most of my respondents prefer the larger stove...

(As far as 6" vs. 5.5" liner, I'm going to go get the ID of the clay right now)

If you are buying the stove for heat, go for the larger stove. At some point in the winter you will have an 'ah hah' moment and start patting yourself on the back for making such a wise decision. Given that this is an exterior chimney, the argument for a larger stove is even stronger, though you could opt for some insulation, like micore, behind the stove to reduce heat loss.

In this location you want is a stove that radiates most of it's heat forward or that convects well to the front. The Castine or the Alderlea T5 are well shielded on the back and tend to radiate heat forward. The Alderlea is a convector and can have a fan kit added. I think either would work. At the most you may need a small heat shield if you opt for the T5 with it's deeper firebox or if you choose to move the Castine slightly in front of the firebox.