Fire smokes/smoulders with door open

[Bahyx]

Just got installed a Chiminees Philippe (broken link removed to http://chemphilaust.com.au/single-sided-fireplace-radiante-2000.php) fireplace. This is my first fireplace but I've been using a Chimnea outside for the past year without any hassles.

The problem with the fireplace is that when I open the door the fire dies right down and starts smouldering/smoking. This happens even with a roaring fire.

Here are some pics to show what I mean, the first is of the fireplace with the door closed (added some small/medium splits to a bed of coals 10 mins prior):

The second is 1 min after opening the door:

The only time it doesn't smoulder/smoke is the last hour or so when there are only red hot coals. You can't see the smoke so well in the pic above but it is there, it's not bad enough to fill up the room or anything but it certainly is noticeable. Both of the pics above are with the air inlet fully open as well as the damper (same thing happens if they are closed off to any degree).

Here's the bit where I say the wood is dry: I've gotten wood from 4 different guys and they all seem fine, the latest guy who delivered even said the previous guy's wood was dry. But I don't have a monitor (if anyone can recommend a cheap one off ebay I'll buy it). As I said I've been burning the wood in a Chimnea the last year and it's been fine.

So here's the problem, for certain reasons I need the door open. How do I do this without filling the chimney with creosote and polluting the neighbours and myself? I spoke to the installer yesterday and he said it may be because it's a tall fireplace with a big door so if you try and use it with the door open it messes up the ratio between the chimney diameter and the air intake.

Possible options I'm thinking of:
- Ask the installer to put some fireplace glass over the top 2/3 of the door opening to try and reduce the air intake through the door.
- Buying a chimney fan (the only one I could find here is called (broken link removed to http://www.edmonds.com.au/Products/Residential/Living-Space-Ventilation/Sure-Draft.aspx)).
- Buy an extractor fan for the room (sounds like this would potentially create more problems though).
- Buy a new fireplace (I've seen plenty of older fireboxes on youtube without a door that don't smoke). The Radiante ended up costing over $12,000 AU ($9,000 US) with installation so this option would really suck.

The last few days I've spent reading over everything at Woodheat.org and reading posts here. The only other thing I would mention is that I really love the idea of starting fires in the Top down way but I just can't get that to work in this fireplace. Even with heaps and heaps of kindling the fire just smokes for 40 mins on the top layer and then either dies or finally catches properly. But in any case, it seems to catch quite well using the Parallel log method.

Would really appreciate any advice from some of the veterans here, I really don't know what to do.

 

[bholler]

Why not just keep the door closed? Why do you need the door open is the fireplace even designed to be used with the door open?

 

[Bahyx]

Why not just keep the door closed? Why do you need the door open is the fireplace even designed to be used with the door open?

It's a personal matter, I'd rather not got into it. I don't know if it's designed to be used with the door open but given how it burns with the door open I'm pretty sure it's not. To be honest it didn't occur to me there would be such a huge difference. If the solution was as easy as simply closing the door that would be great and I wouldn't have posted but unfortunately this would make the whole venture kind of useless.

 

[bholler]

it looks like it is meant to be used with the door closed you should have checked if the unit you were buying was meant to do what you wanted before spending $9000 on it sorry

 

[Bahyx]

it looks like it is meant to be used with the door closed you should have checked if the unit you were buying was meant to do what you wanted before spending $9000 on it sorry

Yeah thanks! No kidding. Anyone else?

 

[bholler]

Yeah thanks! No kidding. Anyone else?

Sorry to be so blunt but from what i found that is the answer. A Exausto or sure draft would probably help but they are very expensive and usually pretty noisy. Glass may work but it may not you could try it with some cheap sheet metal first. and a room exhaust fan will make things far worse

 

[Bahyx]

Sorry to be so blunt but from what i found that is the answer. A Exausto or sure draft would probably help but they are very expensive and usually pretty noisy. Glass may work but it may not you could try it with some cheap sheet metal first. and a room exhaust fan will make things far worse

Alright cheers man, good idea about the sheet metal, I'll see if I have something similar and try it tonight.

If it was you that was in this mess (with the door open requirement) and the above didn't work would you just cut your losses and get a new fireplace? I didn't actually see any fireboxes that were without a door when I was shopping originally, I just assumed they all were designed the same way. I tried to get quotes for building an old style stone fireplace but apparently they are illegal here now.

 

[bholler]

I tried to get quotes for building an old style stone fireplace but apparently they are illegal here now.

If that is the case i would bet that prefab open units are not allowed either. I know nothing about what is available there but i know there are many stoves and fireplaces available here that are typically meant to have the doors closed but also come with screens and have been tested to be used with the doors open.

 

[lectraplayer]

I bet part of the reason for the doors is to keep the flames in and to implement "designed combustion." Probably fire codes and EPA related. However, it makes it hard to have a weenie roast on a stick.

In the second picture, why are the coals so bright?

 

[Grisu]

The last few days I've spent reading over everything at Woodheat.org and reading posts here. The only other thing I would mention is that I really love the idea of starting fires in the Top down way but I just can't get that to work in this fireplace. Even with heaps and heaps of kindling the fire just smokes for 40 mins on the top layer and then either dies or finally catches properly. But in any case, it seems to catch quite well using the Parallel log method.

How dry is the wood? Have you ever tested it with a moisture meter? Split a few pieces in half and press the pins in the center of the fresh surface.

Do you get the same problem with guaranteed dry wood like lumber scraps?

 

[velvetfoot]

But if it was the wood, wouldn't it smoulder with the door closed as well?

 

[lectraplayer]

Oak is about like a sponge, and takes two years to dry, but it burns great when it is dry.

It would also help to post pictures of the wood so we can identify it. You too can Google for it and tell.

 

[Grisu]

But if it was the wood, wouldn't it smoulder with the door closed as well?

I am wondering whether he has wet wood on hot coals. With the door closed the smoke of the wood gets burned up by the secondary air. That combustion breaks down once he has the door open as the inrushing primary air gets the coals to glow but the smoke of the wood cannot be burned up anymore.

 

[BrotherBart]

Quite simply, opening the door screws up the input air balance in the thing. With that huge glass it is designed to burn well and give a great view of the fire without opening it up to just let a huge bunch of cold air hit the wood.

 

[BrotherBart]

How many times have I told people here to swing the stove door wide open to kill a runaway burn in a non-cat stove? It produces exactly what is in the second pic.

 

[lectraplayer]

That makes no sense to common sense whatsoever, to supply more oxigen to the fire to put it out. My WonderWood backs my common sense up, making it even harder to believe. Maybe that's why it's so confounding.

 

[BrotherBart]

It didn't to me either until the night I had an EPA stove crossing a thousand degrees and not slowing down and only had one more way to try to stop it. It shuts down the secondary combustion that your old box doesn't have. Fills the firebox with cold air and blows the heat up the pipe until the fire settles down.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Turns it into an open fireplace.

 

[Bahyx]

you could try it with some cheap sheet metal firs

Tried last night, didn't work, fire still died down.

If that is the case i would bet that prefab open units are not allowed either.

Great, I guess when it rains it really pours.

In the second picture, why are the coals so bright?

I don't know, perhaps it's because the picture is not taken through the glass, in reality the coles don't glow as bright with the door open, black bits start showing where they were previously bright red.

How dry is the wood? Have you ever tested it with a moisture meter? Split a few pieces in half and press the pins in the center of the fresh surface.
Do you get the same problem with guaranteed dry wood like lumber scraps?

I don't have a moisture meter, I just bought a cheap one off ebay but it will take a few weeks to arrive, I've just taken some photos, I'll post them in a bit. I also don't have an axe haha, getting an axe splitter next week (the firewood guy said he would bring a stump to chop them on next time). Not sure about lumbar scraps. All the wood burns fine without smoke in the Chimnea though, and it seems to burn fine with the door closed without smoke. Just puzzled as to why the Top down method doesn't work.

 

[Bahyx]

It would also help to post pictures of the wood so we can identify it.

Okay I've just taken these.

This is Wyatt's wood (the cheapest), he said his is mainly red gum, I asked for small stuff:

Most expensive (they said they deliver to the pizza shops with their ovens), he said mainly ironbark:

Craig's wood:

Servo kindling:

Edit: not sure why these images aren't scaling down, they are much smaller on imgur.
Edit 2: Fixed.

 

[Bahyx]

Quite simply, opening the door screws up the input air balance in the thing. With that huge glass it is designed to burn well and give a great view of the fire without opening it up to just let a huge bunch of cold air hit the wood.

This occurred to me too, I think because it's such a huge tall door that that the chimney sucks air from the top of the door space instead of from over the fire.
Here's a photo of the actual door from the website:
(broken image removed)
(broken image removed)

Turns it into an open fireplace.

It actually seems like it, with the door open, it burns worse than an open fireplace. With an open fireplace I imagine if you put enough wood on you can get a really nice flame without much smoke but here it just smoulders no matter what I do.

Any ideas what to do? I had a thought last night of removing the glass and sending it to some sort of glass cutter to cut a tennis ball sized hole in the middle near the bottom. At least that would be usable though no ideal because I find the glass blocks off much of the heat. Or do you think a chimney fan would solve it?

 

[Jo191145]

I think what your seeing is in the design. It seems to be designed to work with the doors closed. When closed the air inlet and draft force air into the bottom of the firebox. Standard fireplaces are open along the bottom allowing air into the bottom of the fire. Yours seems to be sunken.
When you open the doors the draft pulls air over the top of the fire and up the flue not into the bottom of the fire. This happens with standard fireplaces as well but because they are open the fire can still breathe and create a natural flow.

 

[Bahyx]

I think what your seeing is in the design. It seems to be designed to work with the doors closed. When closed the air inlet and draft force air into the bottom of the firebox. Standard fireplaces are open along the bottom allowing air into the bottom of the fire. Yours seems to be sunken.
When you open the doors the draft pulls air over the top of the fire and up the flue not into the bottom of the fire. This happens with standard fireplaces as well but because they are open the fire can still breathe and create a natural flow.

That's a good explanation, makes a lot of sense. Perhaps there is some way of raising the fire on bricks so the bottom of it can breathe.

 

[velvetfoot]

That sounds like a good idea. Like a metal grate with an upturn so the logs don't roll out. Not called andirons, but something like that.
Edit: When I searched for 'fireplace grate', I came up with a bunch that were variations on this:
(broken image removed)

 

[cspalding0926@gmailcom]

With the door open your secondary combustion cannot take place because of low burn temps. Too much air. It looks designed to be closed at all times. Also your fuel may not be dry enough to burn at these lower temps, only smolder. Is that last photo a bag of kiln dried? If so, Does it burn the same?

 

[rdust]

I'm sure the manufacturer could give you the answer, have you engaged them yet? My guess is it's designed to burn with the door closed.