Fireplace Insert - Mantle Height Dilemma

[Sean Truesdell]

I am hoping to have an insert put into an existing masonry fireplace in our house in northern NJ. The issue I am having is the height of the mantle. It is a wood mantle built at 44" above the brick hearth. The fireplace opening is 30" tall x 40" wide. With most inserts coming in at approximately 20" tall we are only left with 24" clearance from the top of the unit to the bottom of the combustible mantle. This has excluded many of the inserts I was previously hoping to install as they require greater clearance to the mantle. Through the course of this learning curve I have come up with more questions than answers and was hoping for some responses from those who have gone through the process. I am attempting to follow all of the requirements correctly so I never endanger my house or family because I tried to get away with something inappropriate. Here are my questions and, Thank You in advance for your help:

1. Is mantle height something that became a difficult issue when determining what insert to purchase?

2. Some manufacturer docs. specify a reduction in clearance needed when a heat shield is installed under the mantle while others do not. Does a heat shield under the mantle automatically reduce the clearance needed if not clearly stated in the install instructions, or if not stated does the number given by the mfg remain constant?

3. Why is there such an enormous range for clearance from the top of these units to the bottom of a mantle? I have found anywhere from 15" - Pacific Energy Super to 28" - Napoleon 1402 (my original choice).

 

[Allsixofus]

I've run into the same issues, can't answer with authority on the shield possibility, but depending on what size you need, I've come across the Regency line and have settled on the I2400. Barely made it on the clearances with not a 1/4" to spare, originally was going to settle for the I1200 (supplemental heating use) but found the I2400 was within my tolerances. Have been on this site for the past 2 weeks, and mostly good reviews. Hoping to purchase w/i next few days. Obviously do your research and wait for the real experts on here to chime in. Good luck.

 

[Allsixofus]

I've run into the same issues, can't answer with authority on the shield possibility, but depending on what size you need, I've come across the Regency line and have settled on the I2400. Barely made it on the clearances with not a 1/4" to spare, originally was going to settle for the I1200 (supplemental heating use) but found the I2400 was within my tolerances. Have been on this site for the past 2 weeks, and mostly good reviews. Hoping to purchase w/i next few days. Obviously do your research and wait for the real experts on here to chime in. Good luck.

Mostly good reviews on the stove that is. Everyone has been extremely helpful here.

 

[Grisu]

Welcome to the forum, Sean!

To answer your questions first:
1. No. Mantel is non-combustible.
2. Great question. If you follow the code exactly then no, a heat-shield would not automatically reduce clearance if not stated in the manual. I would still call the manufacturer and ask them. Try to get their answer in writing for insurance and inspection purposes.
3. Testing shows how hot a mantel will get above the insert. Some project more heat upwards than others. From that manufacturers determine the minimum safe distance.

Since the PE Super insert as well as the Regency i2400 (and probably a few more) would fit in your case you certainly have some inserts to choose from but it should be appropriately sized for your needs. What's the goal of the insert? Primary heat, supplemental heat, ambiance? How many sqft do you want to heat? Where are you located? How good is your insulation? What kind of chimney? How tall? What inner dimensions? Interior or exterior chimney?

Be aware that any modern EPA-approved stove/insert requires dry wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20% to operate properly and safely. Do you already have several cords split and stacked sitting in your yard?

 

[begreen]

The mantel height is an important consideration. If the clearance is close, a mantel shield can help make the installation safe. I would guess that some inserts don't include this because testing wasn't done or marketing didn't think of it. Some inserts have a convective top that is cooler than the stove top. Others have the stove top directly on top. The later is going to be much hotter.

 

[weatherguy]

I would call the company of your first choice and ask if a heat shield will reduce the clearance to the mantel, if they say yes you can stop there and get the one you want. If it doesn't work with the insert you want work your way down your list of preferences. You can do a heat shield and make it look nice.

 

[Sean Truesdell]

Thanks for all the responses, it is amazing how much one can learn from these discussions. The Regency 2400 is now on my short list, along with the Quadrafire 4100, any thoughts on these two inserts/companies? I am installing in a 1970 semi-well insulated/air tight brick ranch in NW NJ. I have to get on the roof this weekend to measure the height of the chimney again as I'm concerned about the minimums required there too. I will attach a pic for reference of the fireplace, it is on an interior wall in a 500 sq. ft. room with adjoining 300 sq. ft. rooms. I will attempt to attach a PDF of the house layout if anyone is interested. I am really trying to use the insert as primary heat for the front half of the ranch (approx. 1500 sq. ft.) with existing ceiling fans and maybe some corner or in wall fans, and then only using the oil to heat the bedrooms. I have about 3.5 cords of wood CSS in the yard that is anywhere from 8 - 20 months.

 

[Sean Truesdell]

Welcome to the forum, Sean!

To answer your questions first:
1. No. Mantel is non-combustible.
2. Great question. If you follow the code exactly then no, a heat-shield would not automatically reduce clearance if not stated in the manual. I would still call the manufacturer and ask them. Try to get their answer in writing for insurance and inspection purposes.
3. Testing shows how hot a mantel will get above the insert. Some project more heat upwards than others. From that manufacturers determine the minimum safe distance.

Since the PE Super insert as well as the Regency i2400 (and probably a few more) would fit in your case you certainly have some inserts to choose from but it should be appropriately sized for your needs. What's the goal of the insert? Primary heat, supplemental heat, ambiance? How many sqft do you want to heat? Where are you located? How good is your insulation? What kind of chimney? How tall? What inner dimensions? Interior or exterior chimney?

Be aware that any modern EPA-approved stove/insert requires dry wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20% to operate properly and safely. Do you already have several cords split and stacked sitting in your yard?

Hey Grisu, How do you like the PE Super? That is another one on my short list, the dealer closest to me is almost an hour drive so I haven't made it out there to see it in person yet.

 

[begreen]

That would be an easy mantel to shield.

 

[Beer Belly]

At first we didn't like the look of it, but now it gives it a rustic feel (IMO)

 

[etiger2007]

You can see mine in my avatar,
HomeSaver Mantel Shield
Item Code: 5CO-54110
Availability: In Stock, Ships in 1 to 2 business days.
List Price: $69.99
Your Price: $61.48

Northlineexpress.com

 

[Sean Truesdell]

I looked at some mantle shields and do not mind the cost or aesthetic of installing one. My main concern is that if the installation instructions for a specific model do not indicate that a heat shield can reduce the acceptable clearance to the mantle that the inspector/insurance claim adjuster (god forbid we ever had to file a claim due to fire) would not approve the installation. I missed a call from the inspector yesterday but his message said he follows the indications in the installation manual exactly. To me this means that unless the manual specifies that a heat shield can reduce clearance, it makes no difference - at least as far as he is concerned. For me I think the safest way to proceed is just find an insert with an acceptable clearance before moving forward. The regency 2400 and 3100 both appear to give me a couple inches to spare, and the Quad 4100 (the one I was leaning towards) manual states I need 44 1/8" which is exactly where the bottom of my mantle is (not sure if I should push my luck with being that close.)

 

[Grisu]

Hey Grisu, How do you like the PE Super? That is another one on my short list, the dealer closest to me is almost an hour drive so I haven't made it out there to see it in person yet.

A lot. Actually, its weakest point, IMHO, is the manual which needs some overhaul in terms of layout, structure and clarity. PE has a very unique baffle system where the secondary air system and the baffle blanket are all incorporated in one sturdy steel box. Easy to take out, no risk of the baffle board breaking and probably the reason that the Super insert gets some of the longest burn times for an insert/stove this size. The blowers are not overly loud and I have them on low most of the time anyway. The insert also convects the heat around the firebox well. I usually turn off the blower after the first 2 hours when the peak burn is over. The Super loads North-South meaning you see the end of the splits when looking into the firebox. That is easier to load, has no logs rolling against the glass plate and usually allows for stuffing more wood in there. Many other inserts that size are E-W loaders. In case your chimney is not that tall, the Super drafts really well. I have only 13 ft of liner and a great draft.

Your layout is a bit challenging. You can try a small desk fan sitting on the floor at 7'4" wall blowing cold air through the double door opening into the fireplace room. That should establish a convective loop which pulls out the warm air in that kitchen, stairwell area. If that is enough to get the warm air also to the bedrooms you will need to test for yourself.

Other medium-sized stoves for which you can check mantel clearances:
Osburn 2000 and Matrix (allow heat shields, I think)
Enviro 1700 series (4 designs with same firebox)
BlazeKing Princess (catalytic insert for longer burn times and more controllable heat)
PE Neo 2.5
Hearthstone Clydesdale (one of the prettiest inserts out there but also pricey)
Jotul C450

 

[Sean Truesdell]

Yeah, I knew getting the heat back to the bedrooms would be our biggest challenge. Through hours of looking around, especially in these forums, and getting some helpful suggestions from so many, I have come up with some ways to open things up and try to move some more air around. I am actually leaning towards the larger inserts after all my research as I see so many people using them in much smaller spaces (around 1500-1800 sq ft) and am planning on finding creative ways to get it into those rooms. I have narrowed it down to the PE Summit and the Avalon Olympic. The dealer I have been going to is offering me a discount on the Avalon so both are basically the same price. Each has their strong points but am curious about the long term durability of these two units from some owners. My concerns with the Avalon are the durability of the aluminum door and baffle system, and functionality of the bypass damper in keeping smoke out of the room. My dealer was really pushing the Travis products and had me questioning the overall quality of the PE lineup and availability of parts. I realize the loyal following that PE has on this site and have read so many positive reviews and it seems like the lifetime warranty is an incredible feature that may be too good to pass up. I spent less time deciding which house to buy than what insert to put in it

P.S. Can anyone post some decent pictures of the Avalon Olympic, or a link to some? They didn't have one on the showroom floor, and I haven't been having any luck finding them online. Thanks.

 

[begreen]

The dealer is BSing you. The baffle system on the PE is stainless and warrantied for life. The other important difference is the firebox shape. The PE is square allowing N/S and E/W loading. The Olympic is mostly an E/W loader.

 

[BrotherBart]

I don't own a PE stove and have fun picking on PE owners but the fact is they are one hell of a quality wood stove. There may be a lot of reasons you personally come up with to buy another stove brand, but quality doesn't belong on the list.

The Travis stoves ain't no slouches either.

 

[Grisu]

P.S. Can anyone post some decent pictures of the Avalon Olympic, or a link to some? They didn't have one on the showroom floor, and I haven't been having any luck finding them online. Thanks.

See those: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/avalon-olympic-insert.26383/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-avalon-olympic-installed-with-pic.74247/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...a-wood-hearth-stove.71958/page-2#post-1033467

 

[Beer Belly]

The dealer is BSing you. The baffle system on the PE is stainless and warrantied for life. The other important difference is the firebox shape. The PE is square allowing N/S and E/W loading. The Olympic is mostly an E/W loader.

We have the Avalon Ranier....wanted the Olympic, but it wouldn't fit......he is right, it is an E/W Loader. Ours has served us well, and having the blower made a hugh difference...but it is noisey

 

[Renjilj]

A lot. Actually, its weakest point, IMHO, is the manual which needs some overhaul in terms of layout, structure and clarity. PE has a very unique baffle system where the secondary air system and the baffle blanket are all incorporated in one sturdy steel box. Easy to take out, no risk of the baffle board breaking and probably the reason that the Super insert gets some of the longest burn times for an insert/stove this size. The blowers are not overly loud and I have them on low most of the time anyway. The insert also convects the heat around the firebox well. I usually turn off the blower after the first 2 hours when the peak burn is over. The Super loads North-South meaning you see the end of the splits when looking into the firebox. That is easier to load, has no logs rolling against the glass plate and usually allows for stuffing more wood in there. Many other inserts that size are E-W loaders. In case your chimney is not that tall, the Super drafts really well. I have only 13 ft of liner and a great draft.

Your layout is a bit challenging. You can try a small desk fan sitting on the floor at 7'4" wall blowing cold air through the double door opening into the fireplace room. That should establish a convective loop which pulls out the warm air in that kitchen, stairwell area. If that is enough to get the warm air also to the bedrooms you will need to test for yourself.

Other medium-sized stoves for which you can check mantel clearances:
Osburn 2000 and Matrix (allow heat shields, I think)
Enviro 1700 series (4 designs with same firebox)
BlazeKing Princess (catalytic insert for longer burn times and more controllable heat)
PE Neo 2.5
Hearthstone Clydesdale (one of the prettiest inserts out there but also pricey)
Jotul C450

Osburn 2000 has a heat shield option that reduces vertical clearances. The Osburn 2400 does not unfortunately (per mfg)..

 

[mstoelton]

PE summit may fit and only needs 15 inches from top of stove!