Fireplace Insert -- or just block up the fireplace?

[paisleyfish]

This is a great forum, I am learning a lot. I have to decide whether to block up my fireplace and am hoping for your input on whether a fireplace insert (wood or pellet) is a worthwhile alternative.

I live in a two-story townhouse with a walk-out basement -- so three levels, 2200 sqft in all, and only half the basement (370 sq ft) is finished. We heat entirely by electric heatpump, which works great upstairs but not so much for the basement; it also can get a little expensive at about $0.09 kwh. The finished part of the basement has a traditional brick fireplace on the outside wall and a glass patio door, so that room is cold. My heatpump has a fan setting and the cold air return is about 10 feet from the fireplace, low on a wall that is perpendicular to where the fireplace is located. Any wood/pellet storage would be outdoors under the deck.

I had the chimney inspected and learned the clay liner is badly cracked, unusable. It's looking like my insurance might (knock on wood) pay for a spray sealant to make the chimney usable. The traditional fireplace "ambiance" does not do much for me so I am likely to block up the fireplace with insulation and boards to try and mitigate the heat loss. I have thought about asking the insurer to put the money toward a fireplace insert and metal liner instead of the proposed repair. Before I ask, I'd like to know:

1. Could a fireplace insert in my basement, with the heat pump fan running, partially or wholly heat the upper stories?
2. In order to heat the upper stories, would the basement have to be unbearably hot?
3. Given the scenario above, is there much advantage to a hearth stove vs an insert?
4. Given the initial expense, plus all the fire tending and cleaning and finding fuel ($200-$300 for a delivered cord here; maybe $200/ton for pellets if I really shop around), would you personally think that an insert is worthwhile in this situation?

Many thanks!

 

[begreen]

Answers for 1-4 are, it depends. #1 depends on the layout and location of the insert in relation to how the heat will convect upstairs. #2 depends on #1. #3 could go either way depending on the insert. Generally a freestanding stove will win here, but if you rarely get power outages and need the floor space, maybe an insert would be better. #4 is based on the assumption of pellet fuel being less expensive than typical pricing. An estimate of $260/ton might be more reasonable. Check local pellet prices and be sure you are asking about premium fuel and not kitty litter. Pellet stoves are convenient, but they have a lot more moving parts and often sensitive electronics. This can affect the long term cost of running the system. On the flipside, they are convenient, especially when connected to a digital thermostat.

 

[krex1010]

Just a couple things to think about, since you live in a townhouse, make sure you check your community by-laws regarding woodburning, and wood storage. I used to live in a townhouse and about half the homes had fireplaces but the by laws had limits and rules regarding wood storage, the other thing to think about is how much wood can you reasonably keep on the property? If you plan on burning continuously you will likely burn about 4 cords give or take per year. So that means you will have to be able to store 4 cords on your property, I know I wouldn't have been able to do that when I lived in my townhouse. If you are planning on ordering a cord at a time as needed through the winter then you likely will be very disappointed in your stoves performance, because it really is almost impossible to buy wood that is ready to burn.

 

[WhitePine]

Also check your local fire codes. Heating with a wood burning appliance in a multi-family building may be prohibited. You also need to consider insurance. Most insurance companies charge an extra premium if wood is your primary heat source. I would assume that your association's insurance might also come into play.

 

[paisleyfish]

These are all helpful, especially the points about the cost of pellets (I was working off craigslist for estimates) and the HOA rules on storing wood. Thank you.

To clarify, I don't want to do away with my electric heat and I don't expect to burn continuously. I just think that the cost of an insert/stove is only justified if it heats more than the small finished basement. If an insert can't partially offset my electric bill (I'd be very happy with a 30% reduction in the winter) I'll block up the fireplace and be done.

So, follow-up question: how do I find out whether my fireplace/vents/fan layout will accomplish what I want it to? I've had two different fireplace/stove companies out to inspect the chimney, and both asserted that an insert would "heat the whole house" but they never looked at my vents and they have an incentive to sell me an insert. What sort of professional do I need to get out here, and what do I ask to ensure I get a good opinion?

Thanks again.

PF

 

[krex1010]

The vents and fans on your heat pump system really can't be counted on to circulate heat through the house. They may help balance things out, some people find that they help a bit but most find that they do little in circulating heat. For the most part, how much heat you get upstairs depends on how well heat travels up the stairwell, if the insert is far away fromthe stairs and the stairwell is only as large as a doorway and you don't plan on burning continuously then you probably won't be feeling much heat upstairs. However if you do things to help force the cooler upstairs air down to the basement and you burn fairly consistently then you may see the performance you are looking for. And besides I know you aren't big on the ambiance of a fire but you and your wife may find you love the ambiance of warmth, the basement may become your favorite place in the home.

 

[gzecc]

This is a great forum, I am learning a lot. I have to decide whether to block up my fireplace and am hoping for your input on whether a fireplace insert (wood or pellet) is a worthwhile alternative.

I live in a two-story townhouse with a walk-out basement -- so three levels, 2200 sqft in all, and only half the basement (370 sq ft) is finished. We heat entirely by electric heatpump, which works great upstairs but not so much for the basement; it also can get a little expensive at about $0.09 kwh. The finished part of the basement has a traditional brick fireplace on the outside wall and a glass patio door, so that room is cold. My heatpump has a fan setting and the cold air return is about 10 feet from the fireplace, low on a wall that is perpendicular to where the fireplace is located. Any wood/pellet storage would be outdoors under the deck.

I had the chimney inspected and learned the clay liner is badly cracked, unusable. It's looking like my insurance might (knock on wood) pay for a spray sealant to make the chimney usable. The traditional fireplace "ambiance" does not do much for me so I am likely to block up the fireplace with insulation and boards to try and mitigate the heat loss. I have thought about asking the insurer to put the money toward a fireplace insert and metal liner instead of the proposed repair. Before I ask, I'd like to know:

1. Could a fireplace insert in my basement, with the heat pump fan running, partially or wholly heat the upper stories?
2. In order to heat the upper stories, would the basement have to be unbearably hot?
3. Given the scenario above, is there much advantage to a hearth stove vs an insert?
4. Given the initial expense, plus all the fire tending and cleaning and finding fuel ($200-$300 for a delivered cord here; maybe $200/ton for pellets if I really shop around), would you personally think that an insert is worthwhile in this situation?

Many thanks!

Unfortunately unless someone is doing exactly what you want (maybe a neighbor with the same unit) there are too many variables to make a prediction on the effectiveness of your layout. Have you considered the upfront cost? Probably 3-5K. How long will your payback be if its not your primary source of heat?

 

[dave11]

Maybe I missed it, but do you have electric heat because you don't have access to natural gas? If you have access, it's likely going to be a much cheaper source of heat for you than wood/pellets, though there are some here who disagree with that.

If you don't have access to NG, wood/pellets might make sense, though only if you get a stove that heats more by convective heat than radiating heat, given the layout of your structure. At best, it would be a supplement, and you're still going to need to heat the areas farthest from the stove, by some other means.

The alternative would be to spend the money adding insulation to walls/floor/ceiling, and air-sealing, which can make a huge improvement in heating costs as well.

Living in a townhouse, I'd bet you don't have much space for firewood storage.