Fireplace Manufacturer's Warranties

[builderbob]

In my search so far, I have run across what seems the industry standard as to warranty (on woodburning fireplaces):

Some long, long period of time such as 20, or 25, or 30 years or "Lifetime"---but the real warranty is only for 1 year parts and labor. After that it is diminishing "parts only" coverage, either for some period of time, or parts at some reduced to less than retail cost for the fireplace owner.

The two exceptions I have found are:
Fireplace Xtrordinair which gives 2+ years parts and labor,
LennoxHearthProducts which gives 5 years parts and labor, then free parts to year 10,
then reduced cost of parts to year 20.

I wonder if the rest of the indistry will ever catch up to Travis (FPX) and Lennox? From what I deduce, the Travis Fireplace Xtrordinair has been a popular seller in the market. Lennox seems fairly new to the industry having bought Security/BIS (and Superior), but Lennox is the one who improved on what the Security/Bis old warranty was.

As a consumer, I would hope to see Lennox warranty become the standard. After all, for consumers, manufactured woodburning fireplaces are in essence a "lifetime" purchase, and a "permanent" purchase. One would hope for some goodfaith on the part of the manufacturers that such product would be expected to last a good longtime---much more than *1 year*.

Comments on any developing trends, anyone? Will Travis and Lennox have enough combined market clout to force competitors to better their warranties?

builderbob

 

[littlesmokey]

In my search so far, I have run across what seems the industry standard as to warranty (on woodburning fireplaces):

Some long, long period of time such as 20, or 25, or 30 years or "Lifetime"---but the real warranty is only for 1 year parts and labor. After that it is diminishing "parts only" coverage, either for some period of time, or parts at some reduced to less than retail cost for the fireplace owner.

The two exceptions I have found are:
Fireplace Xtrordinair which gives 2+ years parts and labor,
LennoxHearthProducts which gives 5 years parts and labor, then free parts to year 10,
then reduced cost of parts to year 20.

I wonder if the rest of the indistry will ever catch up to Travis (FPX) and Lennox? From what I deduce, the Travis Fireplace Xtrordinair has been a popular seller in the market. Lennox seems fairly new to the industry having bought Security/BIS (and Superior), but Lennox is the one who improved on what the Security/Bis old warranty was.

As a consumer, I would hope to see Lennox warranty become the standard. After all, for consumers, manufactured woodburning fireplaces are in essence a "lifetime" purchase, and a "permanent" purchase. One would hope for some goodfaith on the part of the manufacturers that such product would be expected to last a good longtime---much more than *1 year*.

Comments on any developing trends, anyone? Will Travis and Lennox have enough combined market clout to force competitors to better their warranties?

builderbob

Just my opinion, but the best equipment I depend on has a warranty long expired that I never had to make a claim against. If you look at autos, does the length of warranty tell you how well the machine is made? NO. The frequency of claims against the warranty is a better measure. Travis gives a good standard, but not unreasonable in defining their responsibility for manufacturing and the line where you as a consumer takes over for the condition of your appliance, the manufacturer of a stove does not control how you use the appliance. The measure of quality is the number of units in service and the user satisfaction. The warranty should be a way to insure if they screwed up making the stove, you don't have to suffer the consequences. A search of this forum will give you lots of anecdotal stories of stupid stove owners, I don't think the makers should pay for that.

Lennox is not well thought of by many on this forum, mostly because they bought the companies that made the stoves and are not too serious about keeping up with the original design commitments.

 

[builderbob]

Even cars give 3 years bumper to bumper, and 7/70,000 or 7/100,000 on powertrain. That is almost all makes.
A few makers give 5/50,000 bumper to bumper. That is warranty given regardless of how good or bad the particular maker makes their cars. Talk about a product out there in the real world being driven by all kinds of drivers. Yet the makers offer such warranties.

Most (all) fireplace makers warranties already have the fine print to deny warranty for abused, or wrongly installed, units. They already have their "out" for being wrongly charged the abuse costs. I think your "fear" that fireplace manufacturers will have to pay for abusive use by consumers is misplaced. I'd say the consumers are the ones bearing nearly all the risk in this area of purchase.

Travis and Lennox have apparently decided to do something about it.

It looks pretty one-sided to me between fireplace manufacturers and consumers. The consumer is expected to shell out in some cases as much as a small car costs, install it in a "permanent" installation in their homes, and hope it lasts beyond one year.

So you advocate short warranties are better than longer warranties? As a consumer, I have to disagree.

As to a consumer being able to evaluate "quality" of units, I would love if there were Consumer Reports repair experience ratings. Or even sales figure ratings of different manufacturers and models. You want to point me to this info? All I have found is anecdotes. This forum is probably the closest to a good source as a consumer will find, but even here, there are a few vocal posters with their own particular biases. Nothing like a comprehensive "experience" record. Overwhelmingly "anecdotal".

Frankly, I find it somewhat frustrating shopping for a woodburning firpelace costing thousands of dollars.

 

[littlesmokey]

Even cars give 3 years bumper to bumper, and 7/70,000 or 7/100,000 on powertrain. That is almost all makes.
A few makers give 5/50,000 bumper to bumper. That is warranty given regardless of how good or bad the particular maker makes their cars. Talk about a product out there in the real world being driven by all kinds of drivers. Yet the makers offer such warranties.

Most (all) fireplace makers warranties already have the fine print to deny warranty for abused, or wrongly installed, units. They already have their "out" for being wrongly charged the abuse costs. I think your "fear" that fireplace manufacturers will have to pay for abusive use by consumers is misplaced. I'd say the consumers are the ones bearing nearly all the risk in this area of purchase.

Travis and Lennox have apparently decided to do something about it.

It looks pretty one-sided to me between fireplace manufacturers and consumers. The consumer is expected to shell out in some cases as much as a small car costs, install it in a "permanent" installation in their homes, and hope it lasts beyond one year.

So you advocate short warranties are better than longer warranties? As a consumer, I have to disagree.

As to a consumer being able to evaluate "quality" of units, I would love if there were Consumer Reports repair experience ratings. Or even sales figure ratings of different manufacturers and models. You want to point me to this info? All I have found is anecdotes. This forum is probably the closest to a good source as a consumer will find, but even here, there are a few vocal posters with their own particular biases. Nothing like a comprehensive "experience" record. Overwhelmingly "anecdotal".

Frankly, I find it somewhat frustrating shopping for a woodburning firpelace costing thousands of dollars.

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. The length of the warranty says nothing about the quality of the product. There are lots of anecdotal quotes where manufactures have taken responsibility for stoves well out of warranty. If you want to see a company going the extra mile, read some posts my the folks from England stoves and what they have done beyond the pale, look at some dealers who have reached out to solve problems that manufacturers did not or could not resolve. The measure should be the satisfaction of others. Pick your stove, state your case, post to the forum, and see what happens. I as sure regardless of the maker you will get an opinion and some solid fact to back up the opinion.

BTW, I know lots of folks that spend tens of thousand of dollars based on the color of the paint and nothing else when buying a vehicle, go figure.

 

[builderbob]

I know the length of the warranty says nothing about the quality. Didn't I say that in regard to car makers? The difference there is---regardless of the quality---all the makers offer at least 3 years bumper to bumper--that is parts AND labor. Can't fireplace manufacturers go at least 2 years?

It is nice that some fireplace makers go the extra mile out of their good hearts. And that some dealers bear the expense of fixes not wrightly their responsibility. But does all that justify the manufacturers themselves NOT offering longer warranties? Putting their money where their mouths are? For at least a few years, not just 1?

As to folks spending thousands buying based on color, well there are no doubt folks who buy stoves based on color too. Does that justify manufacturers not offering longer warranties?

As to putting up the postings on this forum, I have. And I have gotten some useful feedback. And I think the folks here and this forum are great. But on RSF, I got one response. On Napoleon NZ6000, I got two opinions, but not from actual owners. Got no owner response on Bis Tradition. Even the anecdotal stories are missing here.

Like I say, shopping for a woodburning fireplaces is lot of detective work and reading between the lines---not much real straightforward about it. Gone to several shops, and I can't even find burning floor models to look at and "experience".

Perhaps the perils of being one who won't burn gas/propane/pellets, and who does not want a stove but a fireplace.

Guess I'll have to be a pioneer and take the risks.

builderbob

 

[builderbob]

quote author="littlesmokey" date="1183363185"

Lennox is not well thought of by many on this forum, mostly because they bought the companies that made the stoves and are not too serious about keeping up with the original design commitments.


###It seems ironic to me, the one manufacturer that has put out there for the consumers, in writing, the best warranty in the industry, gets slammed. It is said that "many" on this forum do not think well of them, but I have seen only one poster fault them. That posting now gets repeated and said to be the opinion of "many".

I for one, think Lennox should be commended for taking on, in writing, a financial responsibility for a decent period of time for the products they sell.

Zero clearance fireplaces, while they involve some degree of complexity and research to develop them, they are not rockets to the moon. They are not even cars which have hundreds of moving parts and which routinely get 3 years minimum parts and labor warranties.

It would seem a fireplace which just "sits there" ought to get at least a 2 year parts and labor warranty as the minimum.

Lennox offers 5. I can understand their competitors would want to fault them. But consumers ought to commend them.

My opinion, as a searching consumer
builderbob

 

[webbie]

In my experience, most warranties are a game....a marketing game. Perhaps that is because I used to write them for Tarm and Upland. The FPX is popular probably because the company had a larger dealer organization than most others, and therefore achieved better market penetration - they were also one of the first of the ultra-luxury built-ins.

When it comes to a built-in steel box, what parts are you likely to need? Firebrick? Cats have their own separate and longer warranties, per EPA regs. If, for instance, the unit warped horribly out of shape, I cannot imagine any warranty covering all labor and materials to remove your $2,000 surround tile/marble, replace the unit, and then replace the tile/marble/mantle - but perhaps I am wrong about this.

If you are really worried about replacement of the unit, consider something like the old built-in winterwarm and similar fireplaces where the internal part simply slips out. This type usually consists of a sheet metal box which frames in, and then the unit slides into that. The advantage is that the unit can be removed and replaces.

But perhaps you are beating this subject to death. Keep in mind that 10's of thousands of these built-in's are sold and installed and I have not heard of any systemic problems in terms of warranty work. What that means is that customers are satisfied and being taken care of (in general) by the makers.

If you were discussing a complicated pellet stove with a warranty, it might hold more sway in a buying decision due to the motors, control boards and other stuff.

I think these units are designed to 20-30+ year life spans. Consider than sheet metal (cheapo) builders boxes are lasting for decades!

 

[BrotherBart]

Every time I hear the word Lennox I think of the poster here last year that went to buy replacement firebrick for his Lennox wood stove. Proprietary stuff, the ordinary bricks available everywhere won't fit.

First quote $800 and the cheapest he found was $400 and change. Plus shipping. A box of standard fire bricks goes for $20 at the hardware store.

Were I looking at Lennox fireplaces I would take a peek at their last few annual reports and look at the amount of money they write off every year shutting down unprofitable lines. They do it all the time. I would buy from a company who lives or dies by their hearth products. They are in it for the long haul.

 

[webbie]

It seems ironic to me, the one manufacturer that has put out there for the consumers, in writing, the best warranty in the industry, gets slammed. I can understand their competitors would want to fault them. But consumers ought to commend them.

My opinion, as a searching consumer
builderbob

Warranties in the hearth biz are so complex that most customers (my experience with 20 years in retail) do not take these into account for much....or, are very easily properly "educated" about them. One of the biggest names in the business, Buck Stoves, was one of the first with a lifetime warranty....basically, if your firebox warped they would provide a piece of replacement steel. Of course, the company ended up going out of biz a few times......

As a result, the ACTIONS of a company are a much more important indication of what folks might want to look at. For instance, a product with almost no record of problem with a relatively short warranty would be preferable (in my opinion) to an unknown with a long warranty.

Because of the fine print and also differences between dealers, manufacturers and even state laws - warranty becomes less of an issue (in purchase decisions) than you might imagine. In fact, your inquiry and concern have probably been the single most "caring" query on that subject on this board.

My experience, again, has shown warranty length and quality to have little to do with one another. At one time (maybe even now), VC and Jotul had 1-3 year warranties. In the respective cases, VC often covered stuff way out of warranty (on an individual basis) and Jotuls almost never broke...and when they did, the part was usually cheap and readily installable by the customer (liners, etc.).

Not to lighten your concern, but a long warranty has never been much of a reason to commend and Hearth Manufacturer....because of the variance in all the factors.

You seem like a tough customer, and research is good - but I have seen some folks do TOO much research and end up with a product that was not as good as perhaps their first impressions. Example was the original Dutchwests from Taiwan....real junk - but consumer reports rated them highly and we had folks who shopped for stoves for a year come into the store bragging that they finally had the "best" stove.... They had great warranties and threw in free shipping, and tools and a teakettle.....the marketing was so good that they actually "sold" VC on buying their brand, a move which destroyed the original VC and sent the founders packing without a penny (well, actually with $1.00).

So do you homework, meditate on it, and then go with your gut - just like the choice of a mate!

 

[stoveguy13]

warranties mean nothing to some extent make sure the dealer you are buying from does a good amount of Biz. with the fireplaces company this will mean they have some pull with them and if something goes wrong they will be able to fix it for you i can tell you from personal experiences i can get stuff done under warranty for things taht have been out of warranty for more then a year or more the pull factor is a big deal.

 

[builderbob]

I understand the message some of you are positing---that warranty length and actual quality are two different things. And I appreciate that in the "real world".

But all other things being equal-----from the consumer viewpoint, isn't a longer warranty better than a shorter one? And how does any company offering the longer warranty become the "bad guy" in any way whatsoever? It almost seems like some of the posts are trying to make excuses for the competitors who do not want to have to compete on basis of warranty. So they try to downgrade the one competing with the longer warranty. At least it can "sound" that way.

Interesting point on the brick refractories. But all the zc woodburning units I have become aware of do not use regular brickyard individual bricks. They use their own refractory panels. I wish I could find a unit that met our other criteria AND used individual brick. So expensive replacement on brick refractory panels is probably an industry problem Similar, no doubt, to car repairs. If you have to go to the manufacturer for car parts to rebuild your car, it costs 5 times what it cost new!!

As to going with my gut on choosing a fireplace "just like the choice of a mate", I did get a lifetime warranty with my mate!! And so far I haven't had to use it!! I hope my choice of a fireplace turns out a tenth as good.

 

[webbie]

Hey, knowledge is power - do what you like with the info. It comes from dealers who have sold virtually every brand on the market - and tens of thousands of 'em.

All things are never equal.....an $800 refractory as BB mentions is not equal to a few bucks worth of firebricks - whether in 3 years or 6 years.

Is a longer warranty better than a shorter one-in the hearth products arena? The answer is usually that it is not. That is blunt, but as stoveguy13 says, the most important link in the chain is often your dealer. So, OTOH, all things being equal a good dealer is more important than a good warranty. And a good track record (for the model and manufacturer) is also better than a good warranty.

So, yes, warranty may be somewhere on the scale, but we are suggesting that in your case - your other factors such as glass size, availability, cost and many other things would be the benefits that WE might pay more attention to.

So, yes, if you find all those things exactly equal....glass, price, dealer, manufacturer reputation, etc.....and it then comes down to 2 units, then you might very carefully read the warranty...and see if there is a difference. As said before, it does not do you much good even if they replace a unit if it costs you a couple grand to de-install and re-install. So I would look for initial proven quality with anything I was going to build in.

 

[builderbob]

OK---initial proven quality. I'll bite.

Please refer me to the proven and verifiable quality stats for----
Napoleon NZ 6000
FPX Elite 44
Bis Tradition/Lennox Montecito Estate
RSF Delta and RSF Opel 3
KozyHeat (forgot the name--but similar to above models)

And tell me where I can see and experience burning models of the above in person somewhere around Portland or even Seattle? Or even non-burning dispaly models. If I could even just see these units in person, I would feel a whole lot less frustrated. If I could see some of them in customers homes, I would be somewhere near ecstatic.

Am I asking too much? For a 5 to 10 thousand dollar purchase (pipe included)?

Thanks.

 

[begreen]

I'd ask the dealers for references.

 

[begreen]

Have you called all the Portland dealers without any luck? I called and it looks like Rich's for the Home has two ZC FPXs on display in Bellevue, WA. (425) 373-3299

 

[webbie]

OK---initial proven quality. I'll bite.

Please refer me to the proven and verifiable quality stats for----
Napoleon NZ 6000
FPX Elite 44
Bis Tradition/Lennox Montecito Estate
RSF Delta and RSF Opel 3
KozyHeat (forgot the name--but similar to above models)
Am I asking too much? For a 5 to 10 thousand dollar purchase (pipe included)?

Thanks.

Definitely asking way too much out of us. You can probably get some of this, but you have to do the leg work. But back to trust in your dealer......when people came to see me, they listened to what we said. They knew our reputation. So the same applies. All the units you mention have had high marks from various parties...including dealers. There is usually a "tipping point" which allows you to drop one or another from the list.

Truth be told, you are probably doing vastly more research than the average joe. Does not always mean you will end up with the best or even the right unit.....but it might make you feel better about it. Sometimes the internet can provide TOO much info. I think you will be happy with your final choice, no matter which one it is. There is no "best" stove (never has been), but rather some that have features, prices, styles, etc. that appeal more or less to each party.

With a name like BuilderBob, I assumed you were a builder. If you are, you know that these decisions have to be made and then onto the next one. Otherwise the project never gets done!

 

[Kenny1]

OK---initial proven quality. I'll bite.

Please refer me to the proven and verifiable quality stats for----
Napoleon NZ 6000
FPX Elite 44
Bis Tradition/Lennox Montecito Estate
RSF Delta and RSF Opel 3
KozyHeat (forgot the name--but similar to above models)

And tell me where I can see and experience burning models of the above in person somewhere around Portland or even Seattle? Or even non-burning dispaly models. If I could even just see these units in person, I would feel a whole lot less frustrated. If I could see some of them in customers homes, I would be somewhere near ecstatic.

Am I asking too much? For a 5 to 10 thousand dollar purchase (pipe included)?

Thanks.

I hear what you are saying Bob. I went thru something similar.

One thing that I had to learn was that you cannot compare the hearth industry to, oh say the car industry (or digital cameras, or cell phones, etc).

Go to a news stand and how many car mags do you see (car and drive, road and track, etc.). Let alone newspaper columns about cars, consumer reports, etc.

There is a lotta info on cars out there. I don't know if you will find the equilivant of JD Powers intial quality type reports on hearth products. They just so not have the same popularity, and do not have the same amout of thrid party reviews on them.

Best adivice I can give you is find a dealerthat you can work with, and look at what they have to offer.

Best of luck, and let us know what you decide on!

 

[builderbob]

Hey. Wait a minute, Craig. You're the one who told me "to look for initial proven quality"! Then you tell me I am asking too much of you to point me to some quality stats. Maybe your having been in the industry as an insider, you know quality. So it may be easy for you to say "look for it". But for us it is not so easy.

But seriously, if you have a few hours, here is more than you ever wanted to know.

I am not a contractor builder. My wife and I are planning for a new home, for which we will hire a general contractor. We are just a couple who have never had a home built before, and will likely never again after this one. We are not building trade professionals. Just a couple getting ready to spend our life savings. Pardon us for asking lots of questions before making our decisions. But that's what this forum is for, I take it.

I have been doing legwork. I went to the local shop. They had a nonburning FPX Elite 36, but not the 44. I went to two shops in a town 30 miles from here. They both had brochures on Napoleon, and one on Lennox. The one kept trying to give me stuff on gas models when I specifically said zc woodburning. Then they (the shop owners--a couple) said they had installed several of the NZ6000's after they got straight on I wanted woodburning. Then their employee installer came in and I got to talk to him. I asked about the "several" NZ 6000's he had installed, and he said it was "one", about a month prior. So it wasn't in operation yet, so the homeowner was not in a position to tell me anything. Then the shop owners said they were trying to retire. Not real encouraging to potential customers!

A shop in another town 25 miles the other direction sold RSF but had no displays of any woodburning. He was listed as a Lennox dealer, but said he had just moved to a smaller leased store area. He had no literature on Lennox at the time but said he had sold the Security Bis units at his old store where he had lots of space, but no displays at his new smaller space. He seemed knowledgable.

One Portland shop I have had the chance to get to so far, had 2 RSF nonburning displays, but not the models I am interested in. Somehow the subject of outside combustion air ducts came up and the saleman said they install most units with inside combustion air. Almost every owners manual for every brand I have seen "require" the outside combustion air ducts to be installed. I did not ask the salesman why they put their customers in the position of having their unit warranty's voided for not following install requirements to the letter. This was a major Portland dealer, longtime family store. Maybe the salesman was a fillin temp. I don't know. He didn't seem to knowegable about woodburning zc at all.
And their display units they did have were half torn apart. Not attractive at all. Maybe I just hit them at the wrong time, but again, not real encouraging to potential customers.

On a trip to Seattle for a relative's wedding, we did stop in a shop near our motel. It was a stove and spa type shop listed in the yellow pages. They said thay had quit the stove part of the business and sold only spa stuff now. Our luck. BUT, they did have a Napoleon NZ6000 built in at one end of the store space they were still in. So we did get to look at a nonburning NZ6000. It "looked" good. But they didnt sell it anymore or any stoves, so the folks couldn't tell us anything.

So, we have not had much luck yet finding our prospective $5 to 10 thousand dollar purchase where we can actually see it and maybe take it for a test run. We have got to see brochure pictures.

You wonder why we are asking so many questions?

But thank god for this site and forum. I have already learned things here I would likely never have found out otherwise.

(nonprofessional)builderbob----getting ready to have a house built by a pro contractor.

 

[stoveguy13]

OK---initial proven quality. I'll bite.

Please refer me to the proven and verifiable quality stats for----
Napoleon NZ 6000
FPX Elite 44
Bis Tradition/Lennox Montecito Estate
RSF Delta and RSF Opel 3
KozyHeat (forgot the name--but similar to above models)

And tell me where I can see and experience burning models of the above in person somewhere around Portland or even Seattle? Or even non-burning dispaly models. If I could even just see these units in person, I would feel a whole lot less frustrated. If I could see some of them in customers homes, I would be somewhere near ecstatic.

Am I asking too much? For a 5 to 10 thousand dollar purchase (pipe included)?

Thanks.

Now i will bite we have sold just about everyone of these at some point in the 32 yrs in biz. if I had to make a choice i would most likely pick the FPX but will go back to first theroy make sure the dealer you are buying from is a good dealer who does alot of volume with the brand you pick best value you can find and by the way i dont sell FPX anymore

 

[builderbob]

Thanks stoveguy for the input. Finding a good dealer for us will indeed be a top priority.

Did you retire, or if not, what brands do you still sell?

builderbob

 

[stoveguy13]

Thanks stoveguy for the input. Finding a good dealer for us will indeed be a top priority.

Did you retire, or if not, what brands do you still sell?

builderbob

No we are still open we sell quad napoleon jotul hearthstone mendota heat n glo